On Friday 10 August 2007 08:15, Beverley Smith wrote: > Good morning > I am very interested in the Bates of Kingsclere ,would like to see if there > is any relationship with a John Bates who appears in Kintbury after > marriage in 1793. With the help of John Lewis it has been proved a Sophia > Bates Kingsclere was a witnesses at a marriage of this John Bates wifes > direct line relative. I am interested in two deaths I have been given of a > John Bates died 15th Nov 1802 and John Bates 1 Mar 1807 at Kingsclere I > would dearly like to know there ages at death if they are registered. Any > help or advice would be much appreciated. > Regards Beverley Smith Hi Beverley and the rest of the list, I am very interested in the Joseph Smith who married Sophia Bates in order to sort out my Smith line which is awash with Kingsclere Josephs in the 18th century. I am still trying to sort them all out as details are limited. Sophia would have been the great granddaughter of the first recorded Bates in Kingsclere, Thomas Bates who had a wife Maria aka Judith. I note from John L's site Joseph Smith was of Stone at the time of his marriage to Sophia. Well there is a IGI 1681 marriage of a Thomas Bates to a Mary Parker at Wendover. Wendover is quite close to Stone, both in Bucks. I just wonder if this is where the Bates came from. Frobury was owned by the Powletts of Basing House who were a strong catholic family. Frobury Farm has the remains of a chapel that is dated as early as 14th century. Shall we ever crack where the Bates came from to see if there is a link back to the Bates linked to the Gunpowder Plot as Joe so hopes. Three generations on the Bates may have been keeping links with where they came from. May be somebody has been down this path before and disproved a Bates link between Kingsclere and Wendover. Does anybody know? Regards, Nigel Gerdes

Jim Bates hired a researcher who came up with a possible connection to Wendover, based only on relatively close proximity to Kingsclere and the supposition that Thomas BATE the patriarch may have come into the Kingsclere district via a Hiring Fair. The researcher, if memory serves me correct, found no further reference at Wendover to Thomas/Mary. However, around the closest *recorded* date in the 1680s, Thomas must have acquired the Ecchinswell Copyhold, which Judith BATE held for the duration of her widowhood, that passed to Thomas BATE [presumed eldest son]/Richard BATE on the death of Thomas/Joseph BATE on the death of Richard/Joseph surrendered to KINGSMILL, Lord of the Manor c1781/2. The earliest recorded date for the Copyhold that I have located is H 4 J2, i.e. Hock Tide [2nd Monday & Tuesday following Easter Sunday] in the 4th Regnal Year of James II [1688], which was the admission to the Copyhold prior to Thomas [eldest known son?] following Judith's death. There is no record in the register for when Judith's holding commenced as it was customary in the Manor for a widow to succeed for the term of her widowhood. I've yet to check if there is any mention in Presentments: I only have scant knowledge of Latin, hence my hesitation to embark on this line of enquiry. This branch were meticulously recorded BATE in the Copyhold Register and, as they were so obviously Yeomen, would a Hiring Fair theory hold up under scrutiny? We can't say with certainty that they arrived in Kingsclere in the 1680s, because Parish Register records during the English Civil War are incomplete. They may well have earlier connections to Kingsclere/Ecchinswell. Dorothy J.