On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 09:14:33 +0100 "Beverley Smith" <[email protected]> wrote: > I am doing a bit of an exercise re the Bates/Matthews ,as > follows , Me too :-) > I have sent a request to Berkshire for register copies of > a number of marriages I already have a great many. Then I hope to > set up somehow a list that shows these marriages and the > witnesses. Nigel mentioned the Green name well I have 3 references > to Green ,Ann Green m Peter Matthews at Hamstead Marshall 8th Oct > 1758 George Matthews m Rose Green at Hamstead Marshall 19 Dec 1796 > John Lewis lists a Mary Green Mother of Sophia Bates. > John Bates /Elizabeth Matthews had the following children all at > Kintbury Mary b1795 d 1797 John b 1797 Charles b 1799 Hannah b > 1801 Sophia b 1803 > Daniel b1805 > Elizabeth b 1808 I had come to that conclusion from looking at various IGI batches. In doing so I am pretty well convinced John Bate(s) was the one born in 1767 at Frobury Farm, Kingsclere. The names he gave his children , with the exception of Daniel, match those of siblings and there was a Daniel in this Bates line born in 1703 who is the only other Daniel I have found and was a great-uncle of John. I too had noticed the GREEN connection, she would have been mother of John as well as Sophia if my thinking is correct. I had noticed the Mathews/Green connection in the course of looking at Hampstead Marshall events but haven't made a connection to George Mathews as yet. I found these two URLs to be of relevance to Daniel Bates http://www.berksfhs.org.uk/journal/Mar2000/Mar2000BerkshireMachineBreakers.htm http://www.rootsweb.com/~austas/proteus.htm the later link records that Daniel married and died in Tasmania after being transported on the 'Eliza' in 1831 I will update the Kingsclere Families website shortly, so it will include the Matthews family so far as I have been able to trace it and also the two Randall marriages to children of John Bates and some of their descendants. -- John Lewis Debian (Sid) with the GeneWeb genealogy package

Hi Everyone, Last Wednesday Roger and myself met Peter and Rita GOFF for Lunch at the Crown Inn Kingsclere. The Inn is under new management since we last held our Anniversary Lunch there, we enjoyed our lunch, it was a good menu and the prices were good. It has been agreed that the Kingsclere List, 6th Anniversary Lunch will be held back at the Crown Inn, Kingsclere on Sunday 7th October 2007, I will be taking bookings from the beginning of September, hope you will all be there. As soon as I get the menu and prices I will let you know. The Hampshire Genealogical Society Open Day will be held on Sunday the 30th September 2007 it is being held at Horndean Technology College, Merchistoun Road, Horndean PO8 9PQ off the A3(M), more details to be given later. Please see Hampshire Genealogical Society, www.hgs-online.org. "Open Day" for further details. Best wishes Barbara Lewis Mallyon Basingstoke, Hants. UK [email protected] List Admin

Good morning I am doing a bit of an exercise re the Bates/Matthews ,as follows ,I have sent a request to Berkshire for register copies of a number of marriages I already have a great many. Then I hope to set up somehow a list that shows these marriages and the witnesses. Nigel mentioned the Green name well I have 3 references to Green ,Ann Green m Peter Matthews at Hamstead Marshall 8th Oct 1758 George Matthews m Rose Green at Hamstead Marshall 19 Dec 1796 John Lewis lists a Mary Green Mother of Sophia Bates. John Bates /Elizabeth Matthews had the following children all at Kintbury Mary b1795 d 1797 John b 1797 Charles b 1799 Hannah b 1801 Sophia b 1803 Daniel b1805 Elizabeth b 1808 I will when I receive the copies be able to see if there is anymore coincidences. Regards Beverley Smith

On Saturday 11 August 2007 15:16, Beverley Smith wrote: > George Matthews was a > wheelwright lived in a substanial house rented off the Craven estate . He > left quite a bit to each of his children on death. His first wife Mary > Clark , 2nd wife Rose Green. Sophia Bates was witness at second marriage. > To date we do not know anything about Rose Green. Now we have the names GREEN and CLARK common to both the Matthews and Bates families. As a child in Basingstoke the family next door to us were CLARK and they always said they were an old family from the North Hampshire area. So far I have spotted a considerable number of GREEN family members in Baughurst but have not investigated further. Regards, Nigel Gerdes

On Wed, 8 Aug 2007 21:59:44 +0100 "Dorothy Jones" <[email protected]> wrote: > The Will of Edward BATES [1815] of The Rookery, Kingsclere > [proved 1826] is worded in a strange way as he lists > Hannah wife of James ALLEN no idea who these are > Elizabeth wife of Joel GOLD IGI has a Joel Gould bapt at Aldermaston on 4 Jul 1802 to Joel Gould and Elizabeth HINE, They were married on 25 Nov 1801 at Aldermaston. There are no Hine baptisms in the Aldermaston batch and no other Gould. No Gould/Gold entries for Kingsclere > Charlotte wife of William RUMBOLD This is an interesting bequest as I have Charlotte HINE (recorded as Hinds in my database) married William Rumbold in 1810. I can find no link to Edwards wife but the BTs for Wolverton are missing quite a few years. > 'The Daughters of my Wife Elizabeth BATES', to whom he > leaves £5 each. This suggests she may have had baseborn children of whom Charlotte could be one. > Son Edward, Executor, to inherit property after Widow > Elizabeth's death. He is the only one of these for whom I have a positive link to Edward & Elizabeth with a baptism at St. Mary on 8 May 1790. Abode was given as Common which at that time referred to a large part of the area north of Kingsclere. > Burial in Wolverton Churchyard in a brick grave with head > and foot stone. at least he was buried at Wolverton according to Hants Burial Index :-) -- John Lewis Debian (Sid) with the GeneWeb genealogy package

Good afternoon To come in here on the Bate/Bates question ,we were reccommended to try the Kingsclere Bates as our John Bates who married Betty Matthews has on the parish register been entered as John Bates but the s is then crossed off. Both John Bate/s & Betty Matthews signed as did both witnesses.Would be helpful if we could maybe match this John Bates signature.Betty Matthews was daughter of George matthews of Hamstead Marshall ,witnesses were Charles Matthews and Benjamin Naish ,I am waiting for some more printouts from Berkshire of what could be further connections. George Matthews was a wheelwright lived in a substanial house rented off the Craven estate . He left quite a bit to each of his children on death. His first wife Mary Clark , 2nd wife Rose Green. Sophia Bates was witness at second marriage. To date we do not know anything about Rose Green. We think this John Bate/s died in Kintbury in 1812 but with a lack of age or any other details in the register we can't prove it. Would really love to get to the bottom of this. Will wait to hear what everyone thinks. regards Beverley

Hello All, In Maintenance of Bastards, there is a John BATES of Kingsclere labourer, father of a male 29 May 1789, this is son of Elizabeth WEBB daughter of John WEBB. ref 1792 Item No. 34. I looked at John LEWIS website and could not see any reference to the child belonging to a John BATES, so which John BATES is the father, do we know ? Kind regards Barbara Lewis Mallyon Basingstoke, Hants. UK [email protected] List Admin

Jim Bates hired a researcher who came up with a possible connection to Wendover, based only on relatively close proximity to Kingsclere and the supposition that Thomas BATE the patriarch may have come into the Kingsclere district via a Hiring Fair. The researcher, if memory serves me correct, found no further reference at Wendover to Thomas/Mary. However, around the closest *recorded* date in the 1680s, Thomas must have acquired the Ecchinswell Copyhold, which Judith BATE held for the duration of her widowhood, that passed to Thomas BATE [presumed eldest son]/Richard BATE on the death of Thomas/Joseph BATE on the death of Richard/Joseph surrendered to KINGSMILL, Lord of the Manor c1781/2. The earliest recorded date for the Copyhold that I have located is H 4 J2, i.e. Hock Tide [2nd Monday & Tuesday following Easter Sunday] in the 4th Regnal Year of James II [1688], which was the admission to the Copyhold prior to Thomas [eldest known son?] following Judith's death. There is no record in the register for when Judith's holding commenced as it was customary in the Manor for a widow to succeed for the term of her widowhood. I've yet to check if there is any mention in Presentments: I only have scant knowledge of Latin, hence my hesitation to embark on this line of enquiry. This branch were meticulously recorded BATE in the Copyhold Register and, as they were so obviously Yeomen, would a Hiring Fair theory hold up under scrutiny? We can't say with certainty that they arrived in Kingsclere in the 1680s, because Parish Register records during the English Civil War are incomplete. They may well have earlier connections to Kingsclere/Ecchinswell. Dorothy J.

On Friday 10 August 2007 08:15, Beverley Smith wrote: > Good morning > I am very interested in the Bates of Kingsclere ,would like to see if there > is any relationship with a John Bates who appears in Kintbury after > marriage in 1793. With the help of John Lewis it has been proved a Sophia > Bates Kingsclere was a witnesses at a marriage of this John Bates wifes > direct line relative. I am interested in two deaths I have been given of a > John Bates died 15th Nov 1802 and John Bates 1 Mar 1807 at Kingsclere I > would dearly like to know there ages at death if they are registered. Any > help or advice would be much appreciated. > Regards Beverley Smith Hi Beverley and the rest of the list, I am very interested in the Joseph Smith who married Sophia Bates in order to sort out my Smith line which is awash with Kingsclere Josephs in the 18th century. I am still trying to sort them all out as details are limited. Sophia would have been the great granddaughter of the first recorded Bates in Kingsclere, Thomas Bates who had a wife Maria aka Judith. I note from John L's site Joseph Smith was of Stone at the time of his marriage to Sophia. Well there is a IGI 1681 marriage of a Thomas Bates to a Mary Parker at Wendover. Wendover is quite close to Stone, both in Bucks. I just wonder if this is where the Bates came from. Frobury was owned by the Powletts of Basing House who were a strong catholic family. Frobury Farm has the remains of a chapel that is dated as early as 14th century. Shall we ever crack where the Bates came from to see if there is a link back to the Bates linked to the Gunpowder Plot as Joe so hopes. Three generations on the Bates may have been keeping links with where they came from. May be somebody has been down this path before and disproved a Bates link between Kingsclere and Wendover. Does anybody know? Regards, Nigel Gerdes

Good afternoon I would like to thank John Lewis and Dorothy for their e mails re the deaths of John Bates 1802 & 1807 .It would have been so helpful if the ages had been available but thats research I guess. Thankyou so much Regards Beverley

The second death, of the Frith, is probably that of John BATES, brother to James of the Frith who died 1800. That James in his Will appointed 'Kinsman' James BATES, of Frobury Farm, Trustee of his estate during the natural life of his brother John [i.e. John of Frith] who was appointed Joint Executor with James of Frobury. As James of Frobury in his Will dated 28 January 1807 left his eldest son John a legacy, I think it is safe to assume that neither of the burials at Kingsclere 1802 or 1807 relate to John, eldest son of James of Frobury.

On Fri, 10 Aug 2007 08:15:40 +0100 "Beverley Smith" <[email protected]> wrote: > Good morning > I am very interested in the Bates of Kingsclere ,would like to see > if there is any relationship with a John Bates who appears in > Kintbury after marriage in 1793. With the help of John Lewis it has > been proved a Sophia Bates Kingsclere was a witnesses at a > marriage of this John Bates wifes direct line relative. I am > interested in two deaths I have been given of a John Bates died > 15th Nov 1802 and John Bates 1 Mar 1807 at Kingsclere I would > dearly like to know there ages at death if they are registered. Any > help or advice would be much appreciated. Regards Beverley Smith the first entry reads: John Bate ............................15th (Nov 1802) Kingsclere the second: John Bates ...........................1st (Mar 1807) Frith There are no ages recorded for any burials of that period -- John Lewis Debian (Sid) with the GeneWeb genealogy package

Good morning I am very interested in the Bates of Kingsclere ,would like to see if there is any relationship with a John Bates who appears in Kintbury after marriage in 1793. With the help of John Lewis it has been proved a Sophia Bates Kingsclere was a witnesses at a marriage of this John Bates wifes direct line relative. I am interested in two deaths I have been given of a John Bates died 15th Nov 1802 and John Bates 1 Mar 1807 at Kingsclere I would dearly like to know there ages at death if they are registered. Any help or advice would be much appreciated. Regards Beverley Smith PS I have photos coming from N Z when my cousin who is ill recovers these photos unknown people some taken in Berkshire and surrounding areas.

On Wednesday 08 August 2007 21:59, Dorothy Jones wrote: > Hi folks > > I've spent a very enjoyable afternoon transcribing the Will > of James BATES of Frobury Farm [HRO Ref: 1808A/8] but it's > going to take a while to type it. In the meantime, > > Thomas, to inherit after death of his Mother Freehold & > Copyhold Estates called Ham, Baughurst Dear Listers - especially BATES researchers, Little Ham Farm, Baughurst was sold (estate rights not outright) to James Bates of Kingsclere in 1730 by Ralph Harmsworth. James placed his elder brother Thomas Bates in posession of the copyhold. Thomas Bates died March 1758 age 73 and his brother James was admitted to the tenure. James Bates was buried 10 March 1762 age ca 62. His son James Bates (II) who farmed Frobury Farm at Kingsclere succeeded him. His successor was James Bates (III), who was the son of Thomas Bates (the one described in the will ?), who apparently died in 1822 age 62. The estate passed in 1822 to his son James Bates (IV) with another son Edward acting as his brother's customary tenant in trust. Edward the tenant died in 1842 and was succeeded by his brother Samuel Bates. The proprietor Thomas Bates died at Eversley in 1845 where he had his own farm. The farm was left to the executors neither had the surname Bates (William Stone and Samuel Cordery) who sold it to the Revd Lovelace Bigg-Wither of Tangier Park at Wotton St Lawrence in 1846 for £445. In 1851 Thomas Hiles from Yorkshire was farming Little Ham Farm for the Revd L B-W. So the Bates were involved in Little Ham Farm, Baughurst from 1730 to 1845. This confirms and extends with James Bates (III) et seq, the tree that John has on the Kingsclere Families website. It also introduces the older brother, to James, Thomas born ca 1685. There is an IGI baptism at Kingsclere 20 Feb 1683 to Thomas and Judith. This must be him. Additionally one Thomas Bate was a Tithingman of Baughurst in 1740-41. This information is based on secondary records which come from a reliable sources, two published books of excellent scholarship ( The History of the Manor of Manydown Vol1 Part 1 and Part 2 by Ken Smallbone) The primary records should be consulted for surity. Regards, Nigel Gerdes

On Thu, 9 Aug 2007 17:43:22 +0100 "Dorothy Jones" <[email protected]> wrote: > Many thanks Barbara & John for your efforts and > contributions, which I will now pass on. what I have found so far is now on the website, see branch 7 at this URL http://startx.co.uk:2317/Kingsclere?m=NG&n=Harrison&t=N There are two children shown as born in 1836, Thomas from HBapI and James from 1851 Census and later. The entry for Thomas in the Baptism Register could be wrong as there seems to something odd about the entry with index noting date as "1836 after 24 Jan" There is nothing in the Hants Burial Index to suggest an infant death, only that of George age 2. -- John Lewis Debian (Sid) with the GeneWeb genealogy package

Many thanks Barbara & John for your efforts and contributions, which I will now pass on. Kind regards. Dorothy J.

On Thu, 9 Aug 2007 12:30:50 +0100 "Dorothy Jones" <[email protected]> wrote: > My ears pricked at HRO on hearing "Kingsclere" mentioned by > another researcher and, having introduced myself, I said I > would check for any material on the name of HARRISON for the > lady, who is not planning to go online until retirement. > > She had the details of the marriage of Thomas HARRISON to > Eleanor DIXON 02 Dec 1797 and baptism of son Thomas on 09 > Jan 1799, and mentioned that Thomas senr died prematurely, > possibly whilst Eleanor was pregnant with a second son, > James[?]. I can confirm some of the above details from the Register fiche but there is no second child baptised at St. Mary. There is only one burial of a Thomas Harrison in the HBI for St. Mary, Kingsclere which happened on 22 July 1800. The Burial Register doesn't add anything to this but the baptism entry for Thos jnr give his father's occupation as Innkeeper. The marriage entry has Thomas Harrison of the Parish of Benacre in the County of Suffolk and Eleanor Dixon of this Parish, Both signed the register and witnesses were Philip Phillips & Sarah Hobbs (both signed) Philip Phillips senior and junior were tailors and Sara Hobbs could be the wife of John Hobbs (born Sarah Goddard) and married at St. Mary on 21 Apr 1795 so no obvious relationships. Benacre is on the east coast between Lowestoft and Southwold. Benacre baptisms are on the IGI but there are no Harrisons. However there is a Thomas Harrison baptised All Saints, Sudbury on 4 Jul 1769 with parents James & Mary (IGI Batch C062241). There are several siblings if this turns out to be the right Thomas. Eleanor Dixon may have been 'of the Parish' but I can see no baptism at St. Mary for her. Nor can I find her in any Census. Thomas is easier and can be found in 1851-1881 Census with wife Sarah born Basingstoke ca1800 and several children. Hants Marr. Index has a marriage of Thomas Harrison to Sarah Wheatley at Old Basing on 25 Dec 1819. The oldest child I can find in Census records and listed with family is a 15 year old James in the 1851 Census. He was born Winslade but cannot find him or his parents in 1841. So if the marriage in 1819 is the correct one there is quite a gap before the birth of James in 1836, however Hants Bapt Index has several more children with the earliest, Charles, born 1820 at Old Basing and I'll extract them later and add them to my database There is no baptism for Sarah at Old Basing or Basingstoke HTH -- John Lewis Debian (Sid) with the GeneWeb genealogy package

Hi Dorothy, On the 29 October 1789 married by Licence (BT) at St. Lawrence, Ecchinswell. Elizabeth HARRISON married Joseph MILES, she was his second wife, they had 7 children, Elizabeth could be the sister to Thomas HARRISON. Kind regards Barbara Lewis Mallyon Basingstoke, Hants. UK [email protected] ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dorothy Jones" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 12:30 PM Subject: [King] Thomas HARRISON - Kingsclere Innkeeper > My ears pricked at HRO on hearing "Kingsclere" mentioned by > another researcher and, having introduced myself, I said I > would check for any material on the name of HARRISON for the > lady, who is not planning to go online until retirement. > > She had the details of the marriage of Thomas HARRISON to > Eleanor DIXON 02 Dec 1797 and baptism of son Thomas on 09 > Jan 1799, and mentioned that Thomas senr died prematurely, > possibly whilst Eleanor was pregnant with a second son, > James[?]. > > If anyone has any knowledge of other records in respect of > this family, I'll be happy to post details to her via > 'snail' mail. > > Dorothy J. > > > ---------------------------------------- >>From Kingsclere.If you get unsubscribed and did not ask to be >>unsubscribed, please contact List Admin. >>[email protected] > ---------------------------------------- > Changing your Email address, > unsubscribe with your old address and Subscribe to the List with > your new email address. > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the > message > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.10/943 - Release Date: > 08/08/2007 17:38 > >

Hi Dorothy Sorry to resurrect this one after such a lapsed of time, but John TANNER moving from Whitchurch to Kingsclere abt. 1704/5 is very interesting. Would you have any more information on him (or of which John it was). We are again moving (into first gear - only) to establish the Whitchurch TANNER's main tree back to Andrew's father named at his son Andrews christening on 28 Mar 1667. Having been sidetracked many times recently with many branches of their descendants. Any clues or help would be gratefully received. Best regards Jim North France -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Dorothy Jones Sent: 14 February 2007 12:18 To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [King] TANNER of Whitchurch There appears to be conflict on the regnal years. I have a table thereof which gives Queen Anne's third regnal year as 8 Mar 1704 to 7 Mar 1705, which agrees with the dating [original] on this ancient document! Dorothy J. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ann Sargeant" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 11:10 AM Subject: Re: [King] TANNER of Whitchurch > Queen Anne ascended the throne in March 1702. So, as Regnal > years > each commence from the actual day/date of succession, the 15th > January of the 3rd year of her reign was January 1705/6 (not > 1704/5). > Thus anyone researching John Tanner may wish to bear in mind > the > apparent discrepancy - although it is unlikely to make a lot of > difference in the whole scheme of things. > > Ann, Basingstoke > > From: "Dorothy Jones" <[email protected]> > > HRO ref: 19M76/PO3/5 > Settlement Certificate > 15 January in the 3rd year of ye Raigne [sic] of Queen Ann over > England Annoys Dni 1704/5 > Whereas John TANNER of ye Parish of Whitchurch in ye County of > Southton Joyner [sic] being an Inhabitant of ye Sayde [sic] > Parish is minded to settle in the parish of Kingscleare [sic] > ................... [Churchwardens and Overseers of the poor of > the Parish of Whitchurch certify to provide for him in the > event > he is forced to ask for relief or become chargeable to the > Parish > of Kingsclere.] > > > ---------------------------------------- >>From Kingsclere.If you get unsubscribed and did not ask to be >>unsubscribed, please contact List Admin. > ---------------------------------------- > Changing your Email address, > unsubscribe with your old address and Subscribe to the List > with your > new email address. > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of > the > message > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.441 / Virus Database: 268.17.39/685 - Release > Date: > 13/02/2007 22:01 > > ---------------------------------------- >>From Kingsclere.If you get unsubscribed and did not ask to be >>unsubscribed, please contact List Admin. > ---------------------------------------- > Changing your Email address, > unsubscribe with your old address and Subscribe to the List > with your new email address. > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of > the message > ---------------------------------------- >From Kingsclere.If you get unsubscribed and did not ask to be unsubscribed, please contact List Admin. ---------------------------------------- Changing your Email address, unsubscribe with your old address and Subscribe to the List with your new email address. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------- Orange vous informe que cet e-mail a ete controle par l'anti-virus mail. Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a ete detecte.

My ears pricked at HRO on hearing "Kingsclere" mentioned by another researcher and, having introduced myself, I said I would check for any material on the name of HARRISON for the lady, who is not planning to go online until retirement. She had the details of the marriage of Thomas HARRISON to Eleanor DIXON 02 Dec 1797 and baptism of son Thomas on 09 Jan 1799, and mentioned that Thomas senr died prematurely, possibly whilst Eleanor was pregnant with a second son, James[?]. If anyone has any knowledge of other records in respect of this family, I'll be happy to post details to her via 'snail' mail. Dorothy J.