Hello John and All, BATES Monumental Inscriptions for Kingsclere. (microfiche) wdtl = who departed this life STTMO = Sacred to the Memory of ref. 128 STTMO Elizabeth BATES w (widow) of Thomas BATES wdtl 2 August 1836 age 60 ref. 129 STTMO Mary BATES wdtl 9 May 1823 age 75 ref. 130 STTMO James BATES wdtl 7 July 1808 age 72 Kind regards Barbara Lewis Mallyon Basingstoke, Hants. UK [email protected] List Admin

Hello John An update on Mary Brind I have a copy of the cert Date; Oct 25th 1845 John Bates Widower , his Father listed as John Bates ,Carpenter ,as is he, John Bates snr would have been deceased as in 1831 when brother Daniel was sentenced re the machine riots his Mother was a Widow. the witnesses on this cert are; George and Ann Hughes both John & Elizabeth signed.On the marriage cert for John Bates and Elizabeth Watts Feb 8th 1840 ,he is a bachelor & Elizabeth a spinster .On that cert he lists his Father and himself as Wheelwrights . Witnesses for this marriage are James Watts and the mark of Emma Davis.Both John & Mary Signed. I have received more copies today and will get back to you. regards Beverley ----- Original Message ----- From: "john lewis" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 1:01 PM Subject: Re: [King] BATES of Kingsclere > On Thu, 9 Aug 2007 21:32:25 +0100 > Nigel Gerdes <[email protected]> wrote: > >> This confirms and extends with James Bates (III) et seq, the tree >> that John has on the Kingsclere Families website. It also >> introduces the older brother, to James, Thomas born ca 1685. There >> is an IGI baptism at Kingsclere 20 Feb 1683 to Thomas and Judith. >> This must be him. > > I have added this Thomas to the family of Thomas & Judith but the > baptism date needs checking as the IGI entry is a member submitted > one. It will actually have birth year as 1684 due to the problem of > dealing with the English year ending in March at that time. > My software will not accept the 1683/84 dating that is really > needed. > > My sets of Kingsclere fiche start at March 1682 so the February > baptism, if correct, will be on the earlier series. > > I think, if memory serves me correctly, that HRO have an indexed > typescript transcription of these early records so it should be a > fairly simple to check if anyone happens to be visiting > Winchester. :-) > >> Additionally one Thomas Bate was a Tithingman of Baughurst in >> 1740-41. > > I am currently adding Nigel's notes re Ham Farm to the page for James > ca1697-1762 and re-reading them reminds me I also need to add the > James (III) Nigel mentions > > -- > John Lewis > Debian (Sid) with the GeneWeb genealogy package > ---------------------------------------- >>From Kingsclere.If you get unsubscribed and did not ask to be >>unsubscribed, please contact List Admin. >>[email protected] > ---------------------------------------- > Changing your Email address, > unsubscribe with your old address and Subscribe to the List with your new > email address. > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.15/949 - Release Date: > 12/08/2007 11:03 >

On Thu, 9 Aug 2007 21:32:25 +0100 Nigel Gerdes <[email protected]> wrote: > This confirms and extends with James Bates (III) et seq, the tree > that John has on the Kingsclere Families website. It also > introduces the older brother, to James, Thomas born ca 1685. There > is an IGI baptism at Kingsclere 20 Feb 1683 to Thomas and Judith. > This must be him. I have added this Thomas to the family of Thomas & Judith but the baptism date needs checking as the IGI entry is a member submitted one. It will actually have birth year as 1684 due to the problem of dealing with the English year ending in March at that time. My software will not accept the 1683/84 dating that is really needed. My sets of Kingsclere fiche start at March 1682 so the February baptism, if correct, will be on the earlier series. I think, if memory serves me correctly, that HRO have an indexed typescript transcription of these early records so it should be a fairly simple to check if anyone happens to be visiting Winchester. :-) > Additionally one Thomas Bate was a Tithingman of Baughurst in > 1740-41. I am currently adding Nigel's notes re Ham Farm to the page for James ca1697-1762 and re-reading them reminds me I also need to add the James (III) Nigel mentions -- John Lewis Debian (Sid) with the GeneWeb genealogy package

On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 01:17:42 +0100 "Dorothy Jones" <[email protected]> wrote: > Hi John > > According to my extracts we have an anomaly: > > 'Snipped' from yours > > 1841 Census, Kintbury Wharf: > > John Bates, 60, wheelwright, Y > > Elizabeth -do-, 60, Y > > Betty -do-, 72, , Y > > James Watts, 60, joiner?, Y > > I have both John and Elizabeth aged 40 and there is also an > Ann in the household listed after Watts[?] but her details, > including surname, are illegible. I shouldn't have used the transcription of age on the ancestry site, looking closely at the image I think 40 _is_ more likely and this age fits better with a birthdate in 1797. I cannot make out any Ann though, the name after James Watts looks to me like like John Reddick (or similar) age 35 with unreadable occupation. But the age is in the female column and ancestry have her as Ann Reddick but not in household of John Bates. I agree she should be included in that household as the tick indicating a new household is below Ann Reddick's entry. I cannot make out any other names on that page so the transcribers must have had a better image to look at. > I also found at Lower Templeton Farm, Kintbury: > John BATES 69 Ind > Hannah 68 > Charles 10 Ag lab > all born in County In contrast to the previous 1841 census page this one is quite clear ;-) > These provide some interesting links as I'm told 1851 > Kintbury > lists Charles BATES 20 Nephew to John BATES 79 > Hannah SMART 43 dau > Samuel SMART 55 s-in-law > Mary EATWELL 11 Vis > > Sorry, I can't access 1851 via FMP and I was not given full > details. I can confirm those details, with John, Hannah and Samuel born in Kintbury, Charles born in Reading and Mary born Hungerford. The next entry is that of yet another John Bates John Bates, head, 38 ag lab, Kintbury Sarah -do-, wife, 39, Hungerford George -do-, son, 9 scholar, Hungerford Lucy -do-, dau, 7 scholar, Kintbury Ann -do-, dau, 2, , Kintbury > However, I did pick up on these marriage references: > 1Q 1848 Hannah EATWELL/Samuel SMART Hungerford 6 255 > 4Q 1840 John BATES/Sarah HOUSE Hungerford 6 345 > > for whom I was given details of this Kintbury family 1851: > > John BATES 38 > Sarah BATES 39 > George BATES 9 > Lucy BATES 7 > Ann BATES 2 this is the family I noticed so what you wrote saves me looking for that marriage > I'm not yet sure where they all fit in! The Hannah Eatwell marriage confuses the issue unless she was widow Eatwell when she married Samuel. The Berks Marriage Index doesn't list a Bates/Eatwell marriage in period 1822-1841. The IGI doesn't have a Hannah Eatwell born 1806-1810 but there is a Hannah Bates bapt. 17 Jan 1808 at Inkpen to John & Hannah. A John Bates married Hannah Lay at Hungerford on 7 Jan 1805. Hannah Lay, bapt. 8 Jun 1774 at Hungerford, to John & Hannah Lay Hannah Smart gives birth place in 1861, 1871 (when she is a widow) and 1881 as Inkpen. There is no baptism on the IGI for a John Bates ca1813 so cannot positively link him to John & Hannah (Lay) but they did have James 16 Nov 1806 and Maria 3 Jun 1810 (IGI Batch C023371) in addition to Hannah. I'll add this Bates family to my database even though there doesn't seem to be any connection to Kingsclere or any of the Bates families I have already. - John Lewis Debian (Sid) with the GeneWeb genealogy package

Good Morning I would just like to correct one statement in the e mails this morning in relation to John Bates the son he married Elizabeth Watts daughter of David Watts Cordwainer ,Kintbury date Feb 8th 1840. We thought he married Elizabeth Woolford but on getting a copy from Berkshire we found that it clearly states Batt not Bate or Bates . Not sure where this leaves us. Back later when I have studied all the e mails. Regards Beverley Smith

Dorothy, You are quite right a mis-spelling on my part. Cheers Harry

Hi John According to my extracts we have an anomaly: 'Snipped' from yours > 1841 Census, Kintbury Wharf: > John Bates, 60, wheelwright, Y > Elizabeth -do-, 60, Y > Betty -do-, 72, , Y > James Watts, 60, joiner?, Y I have both John and Elizabeth aged 40 and there is also an Ann in the household listed after Watts[?] but her details, including surname, are illegible. I also found at Lower Templeton Farm, Kintbury: John BATES 69 Ind Hannah 68 Charles 10 Ag lab all born in County These provide some interesting links as I'm told 1851 Kintbury lists Charles BATES 20 Nephew to John BATES 79 Hannah SMART 43 dau Samuel SMART 55 s-in-law Mary EATWELL 11 Vis Sorry, I can't access 1851 via FMP and I was not given full details. However, I did pick up on these marriage references: 1Q 1848 Hannah EATWELL/Samuel SMART Hungerford 6 255 4Q 1840 John BATES/Sarah HOUSE Hungerford 6 345 for whom I was given details of this Kintbury family 1851: John BATES 38 Sarah BATES 39 George BATES 9 Lucy BATES 7 Ann BATES 2 I'm not yet sure where they all fit in! Dorothy J.

Looks very promising! One point - I think you will find those Swanmere entries should be Swanmore, near Bishop's Waltham/Droxford. Your folks were neighbours of my MARTIN family in Kingsclere Dell early 19th Century and I have an unproven link to Abraham ROLFE, also of The Dell. I'll dig out what I have whilst you're away. Have a good time! Dorothy J.

On Sat, 11 Aug 2007 22:26:41 +0100 Nigel Gerdes <[email protected]> wrote: > On Saturday 11 August 2007 15:16, Beverley Smith wrote: > > George Matthews was a > > wheelwright lived in a substanial house rented off the Craven > > estate . He left quite a bit to each of his children on death. > > His first wife Mary Clark , 2nd wife Rose Green. Sophia Bates was > > witness at second marriage. To date we do not know anything about > > Rose Green. > > Now we have the names GREEN and CLARK common to both the Matthews > and Bates families. As a child in Basingstoke the family next door > to us were CLARK and they always said they were an old family from > the North Hampshire area. So far I have spotted a considerable > number of GREEN family members in Baughurst but have not > investigated further. another name (BRIND) to throw into the Matthews/Bates melting pot but first some details re John eldest son of John & Batty Bates 1841 Census, Kintbury Wharf: John Bates, 60, wheelwright, Y Elizabeth -do-, 60, Y Betty -do-, 72, , Y James Watts, 60, joiner?, Y Betty here I think will be Betty Mathews, mother of John and presumably Elizabeth is his wife. The only John/Elizabeth marriage I could find on the IGI was this one:- JOHN BATES & ELIZABETH WOOLFORD, Marriage: 26 Feb 1827, Uffington, Berks. 1851 Census, Kintbury, Berks: John Bates, head, 55, master wheelwright, Kintbury Mary, wife, 45, , Chieveley James Brind, son in law, 18, wheelwright, Beedon Deaths Jun 1844: BATES Elizabeth, Hungerford 6 129 Marriages Dec 1845: BATES John & BRIND Mary, Hungerford 6 386 Mary presumably a widow, there are 3 male Brind deaths in Hungerford RD between 1841 & 1851 but I can't find her for certain in 1841 to get a name for a husband 1861 Census, Market Place, Newbury: George Perkins, head, 55, publican & wheeler, Highclere, Hants John Bates, serv, widr, 60, journeyman wheelwright, Kitbury Mary (Brind) died in Kintbury either Mar Qtr 1852 or Sep Qtr 1855 Deaths Dec 1864: BATES John, Hungerford 2c 156 OK, now for the other Brind connection which was this one: Mary Brind, born about 1818 - North Fawley, Berks Married about December 1841, Wantage RD, to Richard Matthews ca 1818, Hampstead Norris, with John ca 1842-ca 1884 Elizabeth ca 1845 Mark ca 1850 Emily ca 1853 Hannah S ca 1855 Jane A ca 1860 I know Matthews is a common surname but I don't think Brind is anywhere near so common with only 193 baptisms in total on the IGI. -- John Lewis Debian (Sid) with the GeneWeb genealogy package

Hi Harry Sorry - been very busy on another line of research tonight. However, have a look at this site and tells us where your line fits in. http://startx.co.uk:2317/Kingsclere Dorothy J.

On Tue, 14 Aug 2007 16:03:00 EDT [email protected] wrote: > I have just started this search and have very little experience at > this but I have traced my mothers line, the Rolfe's back to > Kingsclere..is anyone able to help me please.... > > ..please be patient with me as I might not know all the > conventions.....but I would appreciate any help that you might be > able to give me...the other 'half' of this partnership seems to > originate from the Chelmsford area although it would seem that they > 'met ' in the Ealing area ........ > Thank you (p.s. am on hol tomorrow for a couple of week) Hi It would help if you gave us some names - the Rolfe surname can be found on the Kingsclere Families website at:- http://startx.co.uk:2317/Kingsclere?m=NG&n=Rolfe&t=N -- John Lewis Debian (Sid) with the GeneWeb genealogy package

To whom it may concern: Was just doing some re-checking of all the Harfield/Harfell names that you have on the Kingsclere list and have found a discrepancy. William baptised 26 December 1771 is listed as the child of William Harfield and Hannah Jones when he is in fact the child of John and Hannah according to the quoted IGI file c136861. If this is not so please can you give me a new referance as this is my family and I would like to ensure that I have them all included. Thank you Dawn tad> http://startx.co.uk:2317/Kingsclere?m=NG&n=Rolfe&t=N> > -- > John Lewis> Debian (Sid) with the GeneWeb genealogy package> ----------------------------------------> >From Kingsclere.If you get unsubscribed and did not ask to be unsubscribed, please contact List Admin. [email protected] > ----------------------------------------> Changing your Email address,> unsubscribe with your old address and Subscribe to the List with your new email address.> -------------------------------> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message _________________________________________________________________ Connect to the next generation of MSN Messenger  http://imagine-msn.com/messenger/launch80/default.aspx?locale=en-us&source=wlmailtagline

As for names?? well... I think this is what I have....... 1901 census...RG13/4467 Alfred William Rolfe (my Grandad) [b 1897} Sculcoates Hull Father = George [aged 44 b Swanmere] Mother = Mary A [aged 41 b Middlesex, Hays] Daughter = Rose [aged 20 b Middlesex, Uxbridge] Daughter = Alice [aged 13 b ditto Daughter = Mabel [aged 11 b Middlesex , Harefield] Son = Alfred [aged 4 b Sculcoates as above] Son = Fred [aged 4 {{a twin??}} also born Sculcoates] Daughter = Kate [aged 1 b Sculcoates] My Uncle remembers some of these and where his Aunt Mabel lived and Aunt Kate ..and more..so some of these people are within his living memory... George is described as a 'Cement Burner' and lived in a terrace off Dalton Street which we know was just close by a firm.....Earl's Cement, later to be taken over by Blue Circle Cement where my sister also worked in the offices. I think I pick up George Rolfe living in Swanmere in the 1861 census RG 9/698 Father = David [aged 34 b Kingsclere] Mother = Eliza [aged 23 b Swanmere] Son = William [aged 4 b Swanmere] Son George[aged 2 as above] Son = Charles [aged 3months b Swanmere] So now I take a big leap of faith and find a David Rolfe aged 24 in the 1851 census H.O. 107/1684...and find David aged 24 living in Kingsclere with his folks..?? Father = John [aged 61 b Kingsclere] Mother = Mary [aged 57 b ditto ] Daughter = Rebecca [aged 28 b ditto ] Son = David [aged 24 as above] Daughter = Esther [aged 22 b ditto ] Son = George {aged 16 b ditto ] Daughter = Mary Jane [aged 7 b ditto ] Son = Charles E {aged 3 b ditto ] This means his Father John was born around 1790.... I think I have found Father Johns registration of Death in 1870.. For people that know the family better than I...do you think I have got this right so far?... Thanks again for all your help Harry

In a message dated 14/08/2007 23:00:38 GMT Standard Time, [email protected] writes: http://startx.co.uk:2317/Kingsclere OMG Thanks Dorothy.....this will keep me going for years...... smiles Harry...Thanks for all that have helped....I fly out on hols tomorrow but will get stuck back into this when I get back..meantime will send what I think I have found.. Cheers Harry

i will go back through my information and see what i can find...i do have some kingsclere on there being my dads side, i am not familiar with this kind of stuff so bear with me...and i am also not familiar with the kingsclere area as i am not from that part of the world...kingsclere comes into play in my lineage starting from way back...but i will get you any information i have...and i hope that it helps ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

Hi Rolfe {with an E} is the the surname I am looking for..........I did'nt realise there would be so many around......This is my mothers {dc'd} and Uncles {living} lineage that I am tracing........with the Kinsgclere connection.. Gratful to learn anthing you might be able to tell me about the Rolfe's in that area in the 19th, C or before.... Thanks for emailing Harry

to the man that is searching for rolf from kingsclere...i have information on a rolf but i dont know if it is what you are looking for...its more along the lines of the duke of normandy...is rolf the first or last name that you are looking for? ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

Hello, I have just started this search and have very little experience at this but I have traced my mothers line, the Rolfe's back to Kingsclere..is anyone able to help me please.... ..please be patient with me as I might not know all the conventions.....but I would appreciate any help that you might be able to give me...the other 'half' of this partnership seems to originate from the Chelmsford area although it would seem that they 'met ' in the Ealing area ........ Thank you (p.s. am on hol tomorrow for a couple of week) Harry

On Wed, 8 Aug 2007 21:59:44 +0100 "Dorothy Jones" <[email protected]> wrote: > Hi folks > > I've spent a very enjoyable afternoon transcribing the Will > of James BATES of Frobury Farm [HRO Ref: 1808A/8] > Mary, Wife, benefits of property etc so long as she remained > his Widow, Joint Executrix > Edward, Joint Executor, to inherit after death of his Mother I don't have an Edward in this family so that is one I need to find. > Freehold Estate called Clarks, Kingsclere + £210 'What is money worth today' estimates this would be about £12000 today so quite a sizable estate when it is all added up. > Thomas, to inherit after death of his Mother Freehold & > Copyhold Estates called Ham, Baughurst > Eldest Son John BATES £200 > Son William £180 > Son Charles £200 > Daughter Hannah wife of William RUDDLE £200 > Daughter Sophia wife of Joseph SMITH £200 > Son Samuel £200 I think I have to find a burial for Mary born ca1773 and Elizabeth born ca1785 as neither get a mention in the list of legatees -- John Lewis Debian (Sid) with the GeneWeb genealogy package

Good Evening John Well I am coming to the conclusion that we might have a match. I will send all I have to you as soon as I get the further copies along with the witnesses of each marriage I also think the signatures could help. My cousin who is not at all well is starting to send each photo through ,but one by one none have a name, is it any use sending them to you like that I will have to get my daughter in law in to do any cutting /pasting etc but she will understand directions. Regards Beverley ----- Original Message ----- From: "john lewis" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2007 4:46 PM Subject: Re: [King] Bates > On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 09:14:33 +0100 > "Beverley Smith" <[email protected]> wrote: > > >> I am doing a bit of an exercise re the Bates/Matthews ,as >> follows , > > Me too :-) > >> I have sent a request to Berkshire for register copies of >> a number of marriages I already have a great many. Then I hope to >> set up somehow a list that shows these marriages and the >> witnesses. Nigel mentioned the Green name well I have 3 references >> to Green ,Ann Green m Peter Matthews at Hamstead Marshall 8th Oct >> 1758 George Matthews m Rose Green at Hamstead Marshall 19 Dec 1796 >> John Lewis lists a Mary Green Mother of Sophia Bates. > >> John Bates /Elizabeth Matthews had the following children all at >> Kintbury Mary b1795 d 1797 John b 1797 Charles b 1799 Hannah b >> 1801 Sophia b 1803 >> Daniel b1805 >> Elizabeth b 1808 > > I had come to that conclusion from looking at various IGI batches. > > In doing so I am pretty well convinced John Bate(s) was the one born > in 1767 at Frobury Farm, Kingsclere. The names he gave his children , > with the exception of Daniel, match those of siblings and there was a > Daniel in this Bates line born in 1703 who is the only other Daniel I > have found and was a great-uncle of John. > > I too had noticed the GREEN connection, she would have been > mother of John as well as Sophia if my thinking is correct. > > I had noticed the Mathews/Green connection in the course of looking > at Hampstead Marshall events but haven't made a connection to George > Mathews as yet. > > I found these two URLs to be of relevance to Daniel Bates > > http://www.berksfhs.org.uk/journal/Mar2000/Mar2000BerkshireMachineBreakers.htm > http://www.rootsweb.com/~austas/proteus.htm > > the later link records that Daniel married and died in Tasmania after > being transported on the 'Eliza' in 1831 > > I will update the Kingsclere Families website shortly, so it will > include the Matthews family so far as I have been able to trace it > and also the two Randall marriages to children of John Bates and some > of their descendants. > > -- > John Lewis > Debian (Sid) with the GeneWeb genealogy package > ---------------------------------------- >>From Kingsclere.If you get unsubscribed and did not ask to be >>unsubscribed, please contact List Admin. >>[email protected] > ---------------------------------------- > Changing your Email address, > unsubscribe with your old address and Subscribe to the List with your new > email address. > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.13/947 - Release Date: > 11/08/2007 14:29 > >