Hello List, My Husbands 2X Great Grandfather was John Groves he was a Shipwright. His son James Henry Groves was married on May 5, 1878 to Elizabeth Catherine Switzer. They were married at The Parish Church, in Portsmouth Hampshire. Both James and Elizabeth were living at Park Street, Portsea, Portsmouth at the time of their marriage. James Henry Groves put is age as 27 and a Bachelor. And Elizabeth Catherine Switzer was 19 and a Spinster. Elizabeth Switzers father was Henry Switzer a Seaman. When most people get married and put their fathers Name and Occupation am I correct that if both fathers were dead the marriage certificate would usually say Deceased under their names? I know both the Groves and Switzers had relatives living on the Isle of Wight. As in the 1881 Census it states that James Henry Groves known as Henry was living in Whippingham, Isle of Wight with wife Elizabeth and their son James Henry Groves, and that James known as Henry was born in West Cowes between 1849 and 1850. Would someone elderly have changed occupation from Bricklayer to Shipwright? As I know that in the 1881 census their was a John Groves living at Simeon St Grove Cottage, Ryde, Isle of Wight Hampshire, England and whose Occupation was a Bricklayer. When I received James Henry Groves marriage certificate I was quite shocked that John Groves his father had a completely different Occupation than I thought? James Henry Groves's father John Groves Occupation was a Shipwright and not a Bricklayer like James Henry Groves. If anyone has seen any information about a John Groves a Shipwright in the Isle of Wight or Portsmouth, Hampshire I would appreciate some help Please. Thank you in advance for any information I might receive. Kind Regards Pamela J Groves

Hi Pamela, Your posting raises a lot of matters, which I'll try to respond to. 1) Information on certificates etc In official records the registrar, clerk or enumerator could only put down what people (the informants) told him. If, as perhaps in the case of the Groves/Switzer marriage, the happy couple didn't tell him that their fathers were dead (if they were) the registrar would have had no way of knowing this so would not enter "Deceased." In a small place the registrar might have personal knowledge and might be able to question some of the information given him, but in a relatively large town such as Portsmouth he couldn't know everybody and he would have had no way of verifying what the informants said. 2) Married in Portsmouth Park Street was not in Portsmouth proper. At the time (1878) Portsmouth (parish of St Thomas) and Portsea (parish of St Mary) were geographically separate, were separate ecclesiastical parishes and, to some extent, were still separate administratively. I would have expected the marriage to have taken place in St Mary, Portsea, or in one of its satellite churches - St Paul, All Saints - rather than in Portsmouth. In 1878 the registrars for marriages for the whole of the Portsmouth registration district were William Hatch & William Marshall. Hatch was also the clerk of the parish of St Mary, Portsea. He acted on occasion as a marriage witness. 3) Park Street The street is still in the same location, running east-west, a few blocks directly to the south of the Guildhall. It's shown in an 1856 map and, perhaps, in an 1835 one (small scale & hard to figure out), but not earlier. 4) From bricklayer to shipwright? Highly unlikely. In the 19th century the shipwright (SWT) trade was a skilled one, with a seven-year apprenticeship. SWTs were the key artisans hired by a shipbuilder to build a ship. I can't see an adult engaging himself as an apprentice. I find it hard to imagine that a man would state he was a shipwright if he wasn't. If as Sandra suggests he could have worked on boat building in the IOW or elsewhere I think he would have described himself as a boat builder. Today the term "shipwright" is used a lot more loosely and covers a variety of ship-related activities. 5) Groves at Cowes You indicate that James Henry Groves was born in West Cowes, IOW, ca 1850. For centuries Cowes has been the major shipbuilding centre on the Island: its only rival was Fishbourne, in the first half of the 19th century. Is it possible therefore that John Groves, shipwright, who presumably was born in the 1820s, trained and worked as a SWT in a Cowes yard - and perhaps moved to work in the Portsmouth Dockyard when private shipbuilding declined in mid century? 6) Shipwrights in mid 19th century By the middle of the 19th century SWTs were faring badly in Portsmouth - and everywhere else in Hampshire. At the end of the French Wars in 1815 the Royal Dockyard at Portsmouth was one of the largest industrial undertakings in the country. In 1835 about 6,000 men (civilian employees) worked there, mostly engaged in shipbuilding, and there were some 3,500 SWTs employed in the Yard in 1849. The vagaries of international affairs and consequent defence-budget constraints, together with the change from wooden sailing ships to steam-powered iron ones, resulted however in considerable fluctuations of staffing levels and there were massive layoffs of SWTs and other trades in 1868, 1887 and 1905. The layoffs had a devastating effect in Portsmouth as a whole, and particularly in Portsea where many of the Dockyard workers lived. The layoffs were particularly hard on SWTs since there were no large private yards in or close to Portsmouth Harbour hence no alternative employment in their trade. Assisted emigration to Canada was offered to them & their families in both 1869 and 1870, and possibly as many as 1,500 people sailed from Portsmouth in the troopships Crocodile and Serapis. 7) Groves in 1830 & 1878 In case it's of any interest, Pigot's 1830 Directory lists the following Groves in Portsmouth (none are listed in the IOW): - Henry Groves, soap manufacturer, East Street, Portsmouth (the street where many of my ancestors lived); - Henry Groves, butcher, 38 High Street, Portsmouth; - Peter Wm Groves, bricklayer, 6 Amelia Row, Southport (Portsea); - William Groves, butcher, 12 Charlotte Street, Southport. White's 1878 Directory has only one Groves in Portsmouth (I didn't check the IOW listings): - Edwin Groves, butcher, 17 Palmerston Road, Southsea; residence 77 St Thomas Street, Portsmouth. 8) Cholera If John Groves died just before his son was born (1849-50) he may have been the victim of the severe cholera epidemic of 1848-49. I hope some of the foregoing is of use. Cheers, Peter Gawn (Canada). ----- Original Message ----- From: "pamelaj.groves" <pamelaj.groves@ntlworld.com> To: <ENG-HAMPSHIRE-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, June 09, 2005 2:21 AM Subject: DO ANYONE KNOW OF A JOHN GROVES OCCUPATION SHIPWRIGHT > Hello List, > My Husbands 2X Great Grandfather was John Groves he was a Shipwright. > His son James Henry Groves was married on May 5, 1878 to Elizabeth Catherine Switzer. > They were married at The Parish Church, in Portsmouth Hampshire. > Both James and Elizabeth were living at Park Street, Portsea, Portsmouth at the time of their marriage. > James Henry Groves put is age as 27 and a Bachelor. And Elizabeth Catherine Switzer was 19 and a Spinster. > Elizabeth Switzers father was Henry Switzer a Seaman. > When most people get married and put their fathers Name and Occupation am I correct that if both fathers were dead > the marriage certificate would usually say Deceased under their names? > I know both the Groves and Switzers had relatives living on the Isle of Wight. > As in the 1881 Census it states that James Henry Groves known as Henry was living in Whippingham, Isle of Wight with wife Elizabeth and their son James Henry Groves, and that James known as Henry was born in West Cowes between 1849 and 1850. > Would someone elderly have changed occupation from Bricklayer to Shipwright? > As I know that in the 1881 census their was a John Groves living at Simeon St Grove Cottage, Ryde, Isle of Wight Hampshire, England and whose Occupation was a Bricklayer. > When I received James Henry Groves marriage certificate I was quite shocked that John Groves his father had a completely different Occupation than I thought? James Henry Groves's father John Groves Occupation was a Shipwright and not a Bricklayer like James Henry Groves. > If anyone has seen any information about a John Groves a Shipwright in the Isle of Wight or Portsmouth, Hampshire I would appreciate some help Please. > Thank you in advance for any information I might receive. > Kind Regards > Pamela J Groves > > ______________________________