1851 Census H107 1516 page 997 1 Crawford Passage, St James Clerkenwell, London Jemima UPTON, widow, age 43, Seamstress, born Portsmouth, Hants Martha UPTON, dau, unmarried, age 19, Seamstress, born Portsmouth, Hants Jemima UPTON, dau, age 12, scholar, born St Andrews, Middlesex 1851 Census H107 1516 page 1055 and 1056 6 Turnmill Street, St John Clerkenwell, London John WATMORE, age 31, Smith, born Alton, Hants Sarah WATMORE, wife, age 30, born Plymouth, Devon John WATMORE, son, age 11, scholar, born Plymouth, Devon Joseph WATMORE, son, age 8, born Clerkenwell Sarah WATMORE, dau, age 3 months, born Clerkenwell Jane WATMORE, Sister, unmarried, age 29, born Alton, Hants George WATMORE, Brother, unmarried, age 21, Smith, born Alton, Hants 1851 Census H107 1516 page 1075 15 Peter Street, St John Clerkenwell, London Richard VOKES, Lodger, unmarried, age 22, Labourer, born Hampshire Linda Tasmania, Australia

Hello Sandra, I did think it strange too, that the lodger was wrote down next after Jane Groves? James (Henry) Groves and wife Catherine(Elizabeth) Groves have been seen together in the 1891 and they were living at 56, West Street, I have to find my 1901 census before I can comment on them. I will get back to you when I find it. I know the Henry I have was from The Isle of Wight as the vicar that married them was from Newport, Isle of Wight, as it said so on his marriage certificate in 1878. I am going to look through my files so I can look to see if someone has sent me the 1901 c census for Jane Groves? It would be great to finally find out if Jane Graham and Catherine Elizabeth Switzer were both married to My husbands Great Grandfather Henry Groves. I am going to send for a marriage for James Henry Groves and Jane Graham in 1870? I wan't to find out who Jane's Henry's father was? Once I find what I am looking for I will get back to you. Thank you and the others for their ideas and look ups too. Kind Regards Pamela ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sandra J Smith" <sandra.s@ntlworld.com> To: <ENG-HAMPSHIRE-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2005 7:11 PM Subject: [ENG-HANTS] James Henry Groves Mystery >I have already responded to Pamela on this one, but thought I would post to >list as well with some additional thoughts, as this family is certainly a >mystery.. > > For my "two-penneth"... > > I think Jane was cohabiting with her lodger Linington, hence the youngest > two chiuldren being given Linnington as a middle name. It seems strange > that H Linnington, Lodger, is listed before her children on the 1881 > census, whilst the other Lodger is listed at the end where they are all > normally recorded. She is also listed as a "Painter's wife" when he is a > "Painter" The birth certificates of the two younger children may well > illucidate more information, although of course Jane could have lied about > the children's father. It might also be worthwhile looking for the > baptisms of the two Linington children, as occasionally the parish clerk > was far more forthcoming about the child's father. (A case of lying to > the authorities but not lying to one's god). Jane obviously considered > herself to be a married woman in 1881. But would the same be said of her > husband? If he discovered that his wife was involved in an adulterous > relationship, could he have just considered the marriage null and void and > went on to marry Elizabeth Switzer? In a place like Portsmouth, with a > very transient population, he could have quite easily have declared > himself a bachelor and no-one in the town the wiser about his existing > wife back on the Island. > > Another question to be answered is whether you have found James Henry > Groves with wife Elizabeth on all subsequent census entries after their > marriage..ie on 1881, 1891 and 1901? Or did he do another disappearing > act? Could he have been found out at a later date? Court case? I dont > know whether Portsmouth Central Libary carry any indices to the Portsmouth > News. Might be worth checking. > > If there is only one James Henry Groves (which certainly seems to be the > case at the moment), have you searched all the GRO death indexes to see if > there is only one death? A long arduous task, but may be necessary. > > What happened to H Linnington? Is he still around in later censuses? > > With the recent report coming out from the Oxford Laboratories about the > number of men raising children which unbeknown to them are not > biologically theirs, I ask myself "Has anything changed?" > Regards > Sandra > > > > > ============================== > View and search Historical Newspapers. Read about your ancestors, find > marriage announcements and more. Learn more: > http://www.ancestry.com/s13969/rd.ashx >

Hi Sandra, I managed to find Henry Groves for Pamela in 1891 and 1901 censuses with Elizabeth and children, so his whereabouts are known for those years and who he was with. Not tried locating Jane as yet. I agree about your comments re the lodger, he certainly played a far more important role in Jane's life than he probably was happy to admit to? As you say, it does seem a rather odd set of circumstances with Jane stating she was a painter's wife, no hubby in sight, and there he was elsewhere with Elizabeth and a new family? Very intriguing I must say! Regards to all, Jon -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.10/73 - Release Date: 8/15/05

Seeking any information on Charles Croucher born c1821 in or around Ripley. His parents may have been Thomas Croucher and Ann and he had a brother John and a sister Emily who both stayed in the Ripley area and never married. Pat ___________________________________________________________ Book yourself something to look forward to in 2005. Cheap flights - http://www.tiscali.co.uk/travel/flights/ Bargain holidays - http://www.tiscali.co.uk/travel/holidays/

I have already responded to Pamela on this one, but thought I would post to list as well with some additional thoughts, as this family is certainly a mystery.. For my "two-penneth"... I think Jane was cohabiting with her lodger Linington, hence the youngest two chiuldren being given Linnington as a middle name. It seems strange that H Linnington, Lodger, is listed before her children on the 1881 census, whilst the other Lodger is listed at the end where they are all normally recorded. She is also listed as a "Painter's wife" when he is a "Painter" The birth certificates of the two younger children may well illucidate more information, although of course Jane could have lied about the children's father. It might also be worthwhile looking for the baptisms of the two Linington children, as occasionally the parish clerk was far more forthcoming about the child's father. (A case of lying to the authorities but not lying to one's god). Jane obviously considered herself to be a married woman in 1881. But would the same be said of her husband? If he discovered that his wife was involved in an adulterous relationship, could he have just considered the marriage null and void and went on to marry Elizabeth Switzer? In a place like Portsmouth, with a very transient population, he could have quite easily have declared himself a bachelor and no-one in the town the wiser about his existing wife back on the Island. Another question to be answered is whether you have found James Henry Groves with wife Elizabeth on all subsequent census entries after their marriage..ie on 1881, 1891 and 1901? Or did he do another disappearing act? Could he have been found out at a later date? Court case? I dont know whether Portsmouth Central Libary carry any indices to the Portsmouth News. Might be worth checking. If there is only one James Henry Groves (which certainly seems to be the case at the moment), have you searched all the GRO death indexes to see if there is only one death? A long arduous task, but may be necessary. What happened to H Linnington? Is he still around in later censuses? With the recent report coming out from the Oxford Laboratories about the number of men raising children which unbeknown to them are not biologically theirs, I ask myself "Has anything changed?" Regards Sandra

Hello Jon, Yes someone very kindly sent the 1861 Census to me last week or the week before. But thank you for telling me. you never know what people have or don't have do you. So thank you very kindly. Take Care Kind Regards Pamela ----- Original Message ----- From: "J P NIXEY" <jpnixey@btinternet.com> To: <ENG-HAMPSHIRE-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2005 1:50 PM Subject: Re: [ENG-HANTS] LOOK UP PLEASE 1871 CENSUS IN PORTSEA PORTSMOUTH > Hi again Pamela, > > Looks like this could be your Henry in 1861 as well?: > > > Jeremiah Jacobs born abt 1816 Chale, Hampshire, England Head Whippingham > Hampshire > Mary A Jacobs born abt 1823 Exmouth, Devon, England Wife Whippingham > Hampshire > Emily Jacobs abt 1848 Newport, Hampshire, England Daughter Whippingham > Hampshire > Jeremiah Jacobs abt 1852 Newport, Hampshire, England Son Whippingham > Hampshire > Williams Jacobs abt 1845 Newport, Hampshire, England Son Whippingham > Hampshire > Jane A Groves abt 1847 Cowes, Hampshire, England Daughter-in-law > Whippingham Hampshire > Henry Groves abt 1849 Cowes, Hampshire, England Son-in-law Whippingham > Hampshire > Elizabeth Groves abt 1853 Cowes, Hampshire, England Daughter-in-law > Whippingham Hampshire > Eliza Groves abt 1855 Cowes, Hampshire, England Daughter-in-law > Whippingham Hampshire > > Presumably son/daughter in law actually means step son/daughter? > > Kind regards, Jon > > > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.10/73 - Release Date: 8/15/05 > > > ============================== > View and search Historical Newspapers. Read about your ancestors, find > marriage announcements and more. Learn more: > http://www.ancestry.com/s13969/rd.ashx >

Dear LISTERS, I WOULD LIKE TO SUBSCRIBE TO THE Hampshire list please. Thank you, Sandra.

Hello Jon, Yes those are my husbands grandfathers brothers and sister. Yes please I would like the image, thank you very much. On James(Henry) Groves marriage certificate to Catherine (Elizabeth) Switzer James Henry Groves said he was a Bachelor? Is it possible that he was a bigamist, as he still went on to have other children by Jane? In all James Henry Groves could have had as many as fourteen children with two wives? I am not too sure, as I could not understand why although probably living with Henry's mate? Why would she give some of the daughters the middle name of Linnington? Do you see what I am getting at, I have put below the address of Jane Groves in 1881 but has a lodger with the surname Linnington. The only thing I can do when I have some spare cash, is send for the marriage of James Henry Groves and Jane Graham. Dwelling: 5 Cross St Census Place: Northwood, Hampshire, England Source: FHL Film 1341287 PRO Ref RG11 Piece 1173 Folio 29 Page 16 Marr Age Sex Birthplace Jane GROVES M 26 F West Cowes, Hampshire, England Rel: Head Occ: Painters Wife H. LINNINGTON U 26 M Ryde, Hampshire, England Rel: Lodger Occ: Painter John GROVES 10 M West Cowes, Hampshire, England Rel: Son Occ: Scholar William GROVES 8 M West Cowes, Hampshire, England Rel: Son Occ: Scholar Matilda GROVES 7 F West Cowes, Hampshire, England Rel: Daur Occ: Scholar George GROVES 6 M West Cowes, Hampshire, England Rel: Son Occ: Scholar E.Minnie GROVES 1 F West Cowes, Hampshire, England Rel: Daur John ADAMS U 54 M London Rel: Lodger Occ: Labourer Thank you for sending the info you found for me. I would appreciate any suggestions as to finding out if Henry was married to both? Kind Regards Pamela ----- Original Message ----- From: "J P NIXEY" <jpnixey@btinternet.com> To: <ENG-HAMPSHIRE-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2005 1:31 PM Subject: Re: [ENG-HANTS] LOOK UP PLEASE 1871 CENSUS IN PORTSEA PORTSMOUTH > Dear Pamela > > I can't find any James Groves born IoW in that time frame on any of the > censuses from 1861 to 1901, but on 1871 there is a Henry Groves, could he > have been using his 2nd name like many did? > > Henry Groves born abt 1849 East cowes, living at Northwood, Hampshire. > He has a wife Jane born abt 1852 in West cowes, and they have a son, John, > born abt 1871 also at West cowes. > On his marriage certificate to Catherine Elizabeth, does it say if he was > a > bachelor or widower? > > That entry in 1871 would match up with the 1881 entry of Henry Groves born > abt 1851 East Cowes with wife Elizabeth born abt 1860 at Southampton and a > son James born abt 1879 East Cowes. > > 1891 there is Henry Groves born abt 1849 Isle of wight living at Portsea > with wife Elizabeth born abt 1859 Southampton, and son James born abt 1879 > Portsmouth, a daughter Kate born abt 1884 Portsmouth, and a son richard > born > abt 1886 Portsmouth. > > Can send you the images if you think this is the correct Henry? > > Kind regards, Jon > > > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.10/73 - Release Date: 8/15/05 > > > ============================== > Search Family and Local Histories for stories about your family and the > areas they lived. Over 85 million names added in the last 12 months. > Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13966/rd.ashx >

Neither of them appear in the Burial register for Fleet Parish Church Vic Wise Brisbane Australia vwise@gil.com.au ----- Original Message ----- From: "Elaine" <macmac3@optusnet.com.au> To: <ENG-HAMPSHIRE-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, August 15, 2005 10:08 AM Subject: burials > My main interest at this point in time is BELLINGER. They originated in > Withington, Gloucester but in the late 1800 or early 1900 they moved to > Southampton. My grandfather tried his own business as a greengrocer I > believe but was unable to make a success of it. He subsequently emigrated > to Canada. My question I suppose is...... Is there any way I can find out > about the shop and can I find out where the grandparents were buried. I > believe it was in Fleet but am not sure. > Margaret Maria died in Nov. 1943 and Bernard Cleverley in 1945. > > This is just an off chance query since we are quiet. > Regards Ellie > > > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.9/72 - Release Date: 14/08/2005 > > ______________________________ -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.10/73 - Release Date: 15/08/05

1851 Census H107 1516 page 887 1 Bowling Green Lane, St James Clerkenwell, London Henry CHILDS, age 24, Plasterer, born Petersfield, Hants Julia CHILDS, wife, age 24, Bonnet Maker, born St Pancras, Middlesex 1851 Census H107 1516 page 912 45 Coppice Row, St James Clerkenwell, London Sarah Lock TUCKER, widow, age 65, Needlewoman, born Portsmouth, Hants Rebecca MANSFIELD, Sister, unmarried, age 57, Needlewoman, born Bristol Linda Tasmania, Australia

Hi again Pamela, Looks like this could be your Henry in 1861 as well?: Jeremiah Jacobs born abt 1816 Chale, Hampshire, England Head Whippingham Hampshire Mary A Jacobs born abt 1823 Exmouth, Devon, England Wife Whippingham Hampshire Emily Jacobs abt 1848 Newport, Hampshire, England Daughter Whippingham Hampshire Jeremiah Jacobs abt 1852 Newport, Hampshire, England Son Whippingham Hampshire Williams Jacobs abt 1845 Newport, Hampshire, England Son Whippingham Hampshire Jane A Groves abt 1847 Cowes, Hampshire, England Daughter-in-law Whippingham Hampshire Henry Groves abt 1849 Cowes, Hampshire, England Son-in-law Whippingham Hampshire Elizabeth Groves abt 1853 Cowes, Hampshire, England Daughter-in-law Whippingham Hampshire Eliza Groves abt 1855 Cowes, Hampshire, England Daughter-in-law Whippingham Hampshire Presumably son/daughter in law actually means step son/daughter? Kind regards, Jon -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.10/73 - Release Date: 8/15/05

Dear Pamela I can't find any James Groves born IoW in that time frame on any of the censuses from 1861 to 1901, but on 1871 there is a Henry Groves, could he have been using his 2nd name like many did? Henry Groves born abt 1849 East cowes, living at Northwood, Hampshire. He has a wife Jane born abt 1852 in West cowes, and they have a son, John, born abt 1871 also at West cowes. On his marriage certificate to Catherine Elizabeth, does it say if he was a bachelor or widower? That entry in 1871 would match up with the 1881 entry of Henry Groves born abt 1851 East Cowes with wife Elizabeth born abt 1860 at Southampton and a son James born abt 1879 East Cowes. 1891 there is Henry Groves born abt 1849 Isle of wight living at Portsea with wife Elizabeth born abt 1859 Southampton, and son James born abt 1879 Portsmouth, a daughter Kate born abt 1884 Portsmouth, and a son richard born abt 1886 Portsmouth. Can send you the images if you think this is the correct Henry? Kind regards, Jon -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.10/73 - Release Date: 8/15/05

Hello List, Please could some kind soul look up the 1871 Census for Henry Groves or James Henry Groves a Bricklayer born between 1848 and 1851 in East Cowes, Isle of Wight. But James (Henry) Groves could possibly be living in Southsea, Portsmouth, as He married Catherine Elizabeth Switzer in Portsea, Portsmouth in 1878 And most of their children were born in Southsea, at West Street, or East Street, Portsmouth. Thank you in advance for any Information I might receive. Kind Regards Pamela J Groves

Ellie I was looking up another name beginning with B in the 1914-15 Kellys of Southampton and District and found these, don't know if they are any help to you. BELLINGER, Sidney Herbert, 70 Ivy Road BELLINGER, William, 20 Rockstone Lane *BELLENGER,Sidney (Bookbinder), 38 Lyon Street BELLINGER, Arthur Charles, Police Constable, 99 Desborough Road Eastleigh *Note variation of spelling Chris

For those who are interested in British place names, here is a link to an Etymology of British Place Names: http://www.pbenyon1.plus.com/Misc/Etymology.html Chris

1851 Census H107 1516 page 780 onwards House of Detention, St James Clerkenwell, London Jane KENNEDY, Prisoner, widow, age 45, Charwoman, born Newport, Isle of Wight Linda Tasmania, Australia

1851 Census H107 1516 page 685 12 Sekforde Street, St James Clerkenwell, London James H. EDWARDS, age 62, Chancery and Conveyancing Clerk, born Portsmouth, Hants Cecilia EDWARDS, wife, age 47, born Truro, Cornwall Frederick EDWARDS, son, age 11, scholar, born St Andrews Holborn Alfred EDWARDS, son, age 10, At Home, born St Andrews Holborn Edward A. EDWARDS, son, age 4, scholar, born St James Clerkenwell 1851 Census H107 1516 page 725 4 Woodbridge Street, St James Clerkenwell, London Patience AYLING, widow, age 60, Formerly Servant, born Twyford Winston, Hants Charles AYLING, son, unmarried, age 19, Porter, born Clerkenwell Linda Tasmania, Australia

Hello Listers I was reminded by a message on another List re that county's Look Up Exchange. Is there one for Hampshire, please? Many thanks. Pam cliveden@acenet.net.au Beaudesert, Queensland, Australia

Hiya Pam, Here's the address: http://members.madasafish.com/~caroldolton/ Just a tip, try googling for results, I find it extremely useful. http://www.google.com I simply typed in hampshire lookup exchange in the search box, hit enter, and there it was, the first result. Kindest regards, Jon -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.9/72 - Release Date: 8/14/05

Not that I know of at this point. Thank you for asking. Regards Ellie Do any of your Bellinger's come from Porstmouth. I have Bellinger connections in my Newell family . Ellen Bellinger daughter of Joseph b 1870. She was one of six children born between 1870 and 1880 any connections > My main interest at this point in time is BELLINGER. They originated in > Withington, Gloucester but in the late 1800 or early 1900 they moved to -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.9/72 - Release Date: 14/08/2005