Hi Sara I am so grateful to you for doing all this work, I must admit that I have never looked into voter's lists, but this is amazing and gives me a really good idea as to how long he lived. It won't take much searching past 1960 of the GRO indexes. I really appreciate you checking this out for me further. A friend checked me the 1891 census, as I had an idea to find Albert's mother on it before she was married in 1897, just in case she had her son before her marriage and he was with her. The result was far better than expected. She was the head of the household, as a widow, Mary Gordon, living with her son, Albert Gordon, and her father and brother, Henry & Louis LUDWIG. She actually was a spinster in 1897 when she married so presume she adopted the GORDON surname for 'appearances' in the 1891. (I can't find a GORDON/LUDWIG marriage anyway) This census also gave me an idea when Albert was born, which was 1882, which means that you were spot on when you said he was coming up for 70 in 1952. He can't have lived much beyond 80 or 90! So this certainly narrows the searching down immensely. I will be able to go to the Derby Local Studies Library tomorrow as they have the GRO indexes and it won't take long to check through 10 to 15 years. He would have been about 78 in 1960. I will let you know. You have also given me his wife and son's name and I will also check out his marriage. I think the deaths in the late 60's started giving a date of birth, I found one the other week in 1969 anyway. I have sent for 2 birth certs, one for an Albert Edward Gordon and one for an Albert Edward Ludwig, and I think it was the Ludwig one, but will have to wait and see. This will also help me confirm his birth & death being one and the same if I get the right certificate If I can return the favour and do any look ups for you in Derby or Nottinghamshire then please let me know. Very many thanks again for all this information, your time is greatly appreciated. Best wishes Ally ----- Original Message ----- From: "sbolt" <sbolt@beeb.net> To: <ENG-HAMPSHIRE-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2005 9:04 PM Subject: [ENG-HANTS] Re: A E GORDON 37 The Polygon - Directory look up > Hi, Ally, > > I've looked at some Kelly's Directories for you, and in some of them, an > Albert Edward Gordon was not shown in the private residents list as being > at > the address, but in the street-by-street section he was shown as being at > "37 The Polygon. Aparts" - presumably that stood for "apartments" so > might > support it being a guest-house? I looked from 1932/3 up to 1938/9, and he > was listed there - there is then a gap as the Kellys weren't printed > during > the war, but in the next one, for 1948/9, a Leonard Gordon (his son?) is > resident, but the word "aparts" is no longer included. > > I also looked at some of the voters' lists. For 1939/40, Albert Edward > Gordon is listed at 37 The Polygon (with a letter "J" by his name, > indicating he qualified to be called for jury service) with Lilian Ada > Gordon and Leonard Francis Gordon (and others of a different surname - > tenants in the "apartments"?) - wife and son? The next one is 1946/7 = > the > same three Gordons, right through to 1959/60 (with various others who > might > have been tenants), when for thre first time they were shown as living in > the "top flat". I ran out of time then, I'm afraid, so couldn't check any > later voters' lists to see when Albert Edward "disappeared". > > However, the last time a "J" for jury service appeared by his name was in > the 1952/3 list, which suggests he was about to be 70, as that is the age > at > which a person can no longer sit on a jury (unless the age limit was > different then - I didn't have time to check, as the library was about to > close). > > Hope that helps with narrowing down when he might have died. You could > try > e-mailing the Special Collections Library at Southampton to see if they > would check the voters lists after 1959/60 for you. If they can, and you > get a possible year of death, if you then check the GRO indexes, some of > the > later death entries will give a date of birth rather than the age at > death, > but I'm afraid I can't remember offhand when that began. > > Good luck with your search! > > Best wishes, > > Sara > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "ally kingman" <ally.kingman@ntlworld.com> > To: <ENG-HAMPSHIRE-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Saturday, September 10, 2005 11:02 PM > Subject: A E GORDON 37 The Polygon - Directory look up > > >> Hi everyone >> >> I have had a death certificate this morning for Mary DONOGHUE, and it was > registered by her son, A E GORDON of 37 The Polygon, Southampton. >> >> [A bit of a mystery as I wasn't aware that Mary had a son, and also the > fact that it's a puzzle as to why his surname is GORDON, Mary's maiden > name > was LUDWIG, and she was a spinster at her marriage in 1897.] >> >> Does anyone have access to any directories after 1930 to see if A E >> GORDON > is still in Southampton. I am trying to find a clue when he died, to try > and > find his birth. There are quite a few Albert Edward Gordon's (Can't find > any > A E Ludwig's, as he could have been born before Mary's marriage between > 1880 > and 1897, or after 1901 when she was a widow. I would have thought more > likely before her marriage as she was over 40 in 1901 when her husband > died. > Still doesn't explain his surname unless he was adopted??) >> >> A google search for 37 The Polygon brings up Abbey Lodge, a guesthouse >> now > at 37 The Polygon. Does anyone know if this has always been a guesthouse > or > was it a private house in 1930. Historicaldirectories online doesn't > appear > to have directories after the 1910's. >> >> I would be very grateful for any help or suggestions. >> >> Many thanks. >> >> Ally (Derby) >> >> ______________________________ > > > > ============================== > Search Family and Local Histories for stories about your family and the > areas they lived. Over 85 million names added in the last 12 months. > Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13966/rd.ashx >

1851 Census H107 1480 page 1768 onwards House of Correction, St Margaret Westminster, London George LASKEY, Warder, married, age 42, Seaman Royal Navy, born Portsmouth, Hants Maria CLEMENTS, Prisoner, unmarried, age 34, Needlewoman, born Overton, Hants Susannah BREESON, Prisoner, married, age 47, Housemaid, born Portsmouth, Hants Mary WRIGHT, Prisoner, married, age 28, Hawker, born Newport, Isle of Wight Jane POTTER, Prisoner, unmarried, age 30, Needlewoman, born Southampton, Hants Linda Tasmania, Australia

1851 Census H107 1480 page 1754 onwards Kensington Palace Barracks, Royal Sappers, St Margaret Westminster, London Charles BURTON, Soldier, unmarried, age 24, Private, born Gosport, Hants Alfred ANDREWS, Soldier, unmarried, age 30, Private, born Portsmouth, Hants Thomas HARRIS, Soldier, unmarried, age 21, Private, born Portsmouth, Hants Linda Tasmania, Australia

Hi, Ally, I've looked at some Kelly's Directories for you, and in some of them, an Albert Edward Gordon was not shown in the private residents list as being at the address, but in the street-by-street section he was shown as being at "37 The Polygon. Aparts" - presumably that stood for "apartments" so might support it being a guest-house? I looked from 1932/3 up to 1938/9, and he was listed there - there is then a gap as the Kellys weren't printed during the war, but in the next one, for 1948/9, a Leonard Gordon (his son?) is resident, but the word "aparts" is no longer included. I also looked at some of the voters' lists. For 1939/40, Albert Edward Gordon is listed at 37 The Polygon (with a letter "J" by his name, indicating he qualified to be called for jury service) with Lilian Ada Gordon and Leonard Francis Gordon (and others of a different surname - tenants in the "apartments"?) - wife and son? The next one is 1946/7 = the same three Gordons, right through to 1959/60 (with various others who might have been tenants), when for thre first time they were shown as living in the "top flat". I ran out of time then, I'm afraid, so couldn't check any later voters' lists to see when Albert Edward "disappeared". However, the last time a "J" for jury service appeared by his name was in the 1952/3 list, which suggests he was about to be 70, as that is the age at which a person can no longer sit on a jury (unless the age limit was different then - I didn't have time to check, as the library was about to close). Hope that helps with narrowing down when he might have died. You could try e-mailing the Special Collections Library at Southampton to see if they would check the voters lists after 1959/60 for you. If they can, and you get a possible year of death, if you then check the GRO indexes, some of the later death entries will give a date of birth rather than the age at death, but I'm afraid I can't remember offhand when that began. Good luck with your search! Best wishes, Sara ----- Original Message ----- From: "ally kingman" <ally.kingman@ntlworld.com> To: <ENG-HAMPSHIRE-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, September 10, 2005 11:02 PM Subject: A E GORDON 37 The Polygon - Directory look up > Hi everyone > > I have had a death certificate this morning for Mary DONOGHUE, and it was registered by her son, A E GORDON of 37 The Polygon, Southampton. > > [A bit of a mystery as I wasn't aware that Mary had a son, and also the fact that it's a puzzle as to why his surname is GORDON, Mary's maiden name was LUDWIG, and she was a spinster at her marriage in 1897.] > > Does anyone have access to any directories after 1930 to see if A E GORDON is still in Southampton. I am trying to find a clue when he died, to try and find his birth. There are quite a few Albert Edward Gordon's (Can't find any A E Ludwig's, as he could have been born before Mary's marriage between 1880 and 1897, or after 1901 when she was a widow. I would have thought more likely before her marriage as she was over 40 in 1901 when her husband died. Still doesn't explain his surname unless he was adopted??) > > A google search for 37 The Polygon brings up Abbey Lodge, a guesthouse now at 37 The Polygon. Does anyone know if this has always been a guesthouse or was it a private house in 1930. Historicaldirectories online doesn't appear to have directories after the 1910's. > > I would be very grateful for any help or suggestions. > > Many thanks. > > Ally (Derby) > > ______________________________

yes I have had it for about 20 years now. Ann *************************************************************************************** ----- Original Message ----- From: <GillettHistory@aol.com> To: <ENG-HAMPSHIRE-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, September 16, 2005 4:36 PM Subject: Re: [ENG-HANTS] Interests > Hello Ann, > Have you seen the full report of her trial on the Old Bailey site. > Regards Jean > > ============================== > Search Family and Local Histories for stories about your family and the > areas they lived. Over 85 million names added in the last 12 months. > Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13966/rd.ashx >

1851 Census H107 1480 page 1728 Kensington Infantry Barracks, 2nd Battalion Scots Fusilier Guards, St Margaret Westminster, London James CLAYTON, Soldier, married, age 36, Colour Serjeant, born Wellington, Herefordshire Mary Ann CLAYTON, soldiers wife, married, age 37, born Burford, Salop Helen Rosa CLAYTON, soldiers dau, age 5, born Winchester, Hampshire James CLAYTON, soldiers son, age 3, born Marylebone, Middlesex George BRAZIER, Soldier, unmarried, age 21, Private, born Micheldever, Hants Henry MULLINS, Soldier, unmarried, age 23, Private, born Sparshott, Hants George MARTIN, Soldier, unmarried, age 24, Private, born Michelmersh, Hants William LAWRANCE, Soldier, married, age 31, Private, born Stockbridge, Hants Linda Tasmania, Australia

1851 Census H107 1480 page 1687 onwards Wellington Barracks, St Margaret Westminster, London Isaac BROOMFIELD, unmarried, age 23, Private, born Eling, Hants William GIBBS, unmarried, age 30, Private, born Ringwood, Hants Benjamin JEWELL, unmarried, age 28, Private, born Romsey, Hants William SHARP, unmarried, age 37, Private, born Alton, Hants Linda Tasmania, Australia

OK, Thanks - Ann ************************************************************************* ----- Original Message ----- From: <bob.newell@ntlworld.com> To: <ENG-HAMPSHIRE-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, September 16, 2005 10:49 AM Subject: Re: [ENG-HANTS] Interests > No sorry they come from Yorkshire > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ann & Terry Spiro" <explorer@smartchat.net.au> > To: <ENG-HAMPSHIRE-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 8:39 AM > Subject: Re: [ENG-HANTS] Interests > >> Hi Bob >> >> I have an ancestor named RILEY but I do not know where he was born - and >> that was way back in 1700's. >> His wife Susannah (Nairn ) was convicted in London and transported to >> Port Jackson 1792. Do any of your Rileys have a connection with London. >> >> Regards >> >> Ann in Australia >> explorer@smartchat.net.au >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: <bob.newell@ntlworld.com> >> To: <ENG-HAMPSHIRE-L@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 11:08 PM >> Subject: [ENG-HANTS] Interests >> >> >>> Been a while since I posted interests. >>> NEWELL. GALLIENNE, HOLLIS, CATCHPOLE, RILEY, NEWBOLD, WHALL, NEILL, >>> BI/ELLINGER, ADSHEAD, MITCHELL. >>> >>> Would love to hear from anyone with connections. >>> >>> Bob Newell >>> >>> ============================== >>> Search Family and Local Histories for stories about your family and the >>> areas they lived. Over 85 million names added in the last 12 months. >>> Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13966/rd.ashx >>> >> >> >> ============================== >> Find your ancestors in the Birth, Marriage and Death Records. >> New content added every business day. Learn more: >> http://www.ancestry.com/s13964/rd.ashx >> > > > ============================== > Find your ancestors in the Birth, Marriage and Death Records. > New content added every business day. Learn more: > http://www.ancestry.com/s13964/rd.ashx >

Mention of Birmingham in this context makes me wonder whether the official who wrote 'Lymington' might have misheard the informant say 'Leamington'. Pronounced 'Lemmingt'n'. Leamington Spa to give it its official name is a Warwickshire town not far from Birmingham! But if it said 'Hampshire' of course I'm way off! Cheers, Dave Jacobs ================ At 05:45 15/09/2005, you wrote: >Hello Colin, >As far as I can see Lancashire is a bit too far north for our HANDS family. >The 1841 Census has them living in Lambeth and there is a good paper trail >from then on. >William HANDS was a convict transported to Van Diemen's Land in 1852 and his >convict record states that he was a native of Lymington. >There was another William HANDS, born c1816, who was transported to VDL in >1843 and he was a native of Birmingham. >Any connections? >Margery >(NSW Australia) > > > >============================== >Jumpstart your genealogy with OneWorldTree. Search not only for >ancestors, but entire generations. Learn more: >http://www.ancestry.com/s13972/rd.ashx " Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it. -Mark Twain, author and humorist (1835-1910) Fashion is something barbarous, for it produces innovation without reason and imitation without benefit. -George Santayana, philosopher (1863-1952)

Hello Sandra, Thank you for the look-up. I seem to be having great trouble in locating "my" HANDS family! Regards, Margery

Hello Colin, As far as I can see Lancashire is a bit too far north for our HANDS family. The 1841 Census has them living in Lambeth and there is a good paper trail from then on. William HANDS was a convict transported to Van Diemen's Land in 1852 and his convict record states that he was a native of Lymington. There was another William HANDS, born c1816, who was transported to VDL in 1843 and he was a native of Birmingham. Any connections? Margery (NSW Australia)

Hello from New Zealand, I am new to this list and ask for your help, I have just received a death certificate and the informant was son William E DAVIS of Andover, Is there anyone that has William in their tree. Many thanks Eileen

Dear Eve, not quite what you want, I realize, but I find them very useful, though they do not point out old names that have changed [I've given the ISBN numbers in case you can get your local library to order a copy]: "A-Z Street Atlas of Hampshire" (whole of Hampshire) from Geographers' A-Z Map Co., Fairfield Road, Borough Green, Sevenoaks, Kent TN 15 8PP (£ 11.45) [ISBN 1-84348-108-1] - worth the extra as it covers the whole county. "Ordnance Survey Street Atlas of South Hampshire" from Philip's Direct, 27 Sanders Road, Wellingborough, Northants. NN8 4Nl; e-mail george.philip@philips-maps.co.uk (£ 9.99) [ISBN 0-540-07477-2] "AA Street by Street, South Hampshire" from AA Publishing, Automobile Association Developments Ltd., Norfolk House, Priestley Road, Basingstoke, Hampshire RG24 9NY (£ 9.99) e-mail www.theAA.com [ISBN 0-7495-2926-1] I'm not aware of a modern, easily available gazetteer for Hampshire alone but the best national one is: "Bartholemew Gazetteer of Places in Britain" (though does not include Northern Ireland) from John Bartholemew & Son Ltd. (my copy came from a book club so I don't have an address or price or ISBN number) If you are interested in old place-names, then "The Place-names of Hampshire" is a good start, from B.T. Batsford Ltd., 4 Fitzhardinge Street, London W1H 0AH, (£14.95) [ISBN 07134 56256]. If you are interested in the New Forest and specifically the Waterside (area facing Southampton across Southampton Water) then I can help as I am writing an historical gazetteer of that. Regards, David

I have had a look and can find no Ellen sorry ----- Original Message ----- From: "June" <junev@aberl.fsnet.co.uk> To: <ENG-HAMPSHIRE-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 4:50 PM Subject: [ENG-HANTS] Catchpoles > Hello Bob > > Ellen Catchpole = William Little in 1852 > > June > > > > ============================== > Search Family and Local Histories for stories about your family and the > areas they lived. Over 85 million names added in the last 12 months. > Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13966/rd.ashx >

Is that why they ask for your HAND in marriage!! LOL Chris ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sandra J Smith" <sandra.s@ntlworld.com> To: <ENG-HAMPSHIRE-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 5:06 PM Subject: [ENG-HANTS] re: Lymington PR's > Margery, > I have searched my transcription of Lymington marriages 1662-1837 and > there are no HANDS marriages in that time. > Regards > Sandra > > > ============================== > Search Family and Local Histories for stories about your family and the > areas they lived. Over 85 million names added in the last 12 months. > Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13966/rd.ashx > >

Hi Eve, The Ordnance Survey do a wonderful street map in book format - 2 volumes, one covering South Hants, the other North Hants. Although quite expensive (I think I paid about £10 each for them) they are a real boon - lots of place names you wont find on ordinary smaller scale maps. They are modern maps. You may well be able to purchase them via their web-site http://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/oswebsite/ Sandra Eve5J@aol.com wrote: >Hello List: > >I am wondering if there is a Hampshire gazetteer in book format or one that >specifically covers southern Hampshire for purchase. I realize that there are >excellent gazetteers online and also maps, and these have helped me a great >deal so far, but I need the big picture showing all of Hants. or specifically >the South. I'd appreciate any recommendations. > >My surnames and areas of interest are: > >Martin - Fareham >Kitchen - Eling, Portsea >Powell - Wymering >Bendell/Bendal - Eling, Portsea >Rampton - Whitchurch >Fleet - Titchfield > >I would love to hear from anyone with connections, although my research is >full of holes at the moment! I have a lot of work to do... > >Regards, >Eve Jankowicz >USA > > > > > > > > >============================== >View and search Historical Newspapers. Read about your ancestors, find >marriage announcements and more. Learn more: >http://www.ancestry.com/s13969/rd.ashx > > > > >

Not sure what type of map you are looking for Eve, but I do have a couple of really old ones of Hampshire but they are very large files and would take too long to send and download. Apart from this have you checked our website SOUTHERN LIFE(UK) it has over 1,900 villages listed in the counties of Hampshire, Dorset, Berkshire, West Sussex, Isle of Wight, Surrey and Wiltshire with over 3,000 photos!! http://southernlife.org.uk There are some excellent maps at Old Hampshire Mapped at http://www.geog.port.ac.uk/webmap/hantsmap/hantsmap/hantsmap.htm This is where I copied and pasted mine from. Chris SOUTHERN LIFE(UK) http://Southernlife.org.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: <Eve5J@aol.com> To: <ENG-HAMPSHIRE-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 9:10 PM Subject: [ENG-HANTS] Hampshire Gazetteer in book format > Hello List: > > I am wondering if there is a Hampshire gazetteer in book format or one > that > specifically covers southern Hampshire for purchase. I realize that there > are > excellent gazetteers online and also maps, and these have helped me a > great > deal so far, but I need the big picture showing all of Hants. or > specifically > the South. I'd appreciate any recommendations. > > My surnames and areas of interest are: > > Martin - Fareham > Kitchen - Eling, Portsea > Powell - Wymering > Bendell/Bendal - Eling, Portsea > Rampton - Whitchurch > Fleet - Titchfield > > I would love to hear from anyone with connections, although my research is > full of holes at the moment! I have a lot of work to do... > > Regards, > Eve Jankowicz > USA > > > > > > > > > ============================== > View and search Historical Newspapers. Read about your ancestors, find > marriage announcements and more. Learn more: > http://www.ancestry.com/s13969/rd.ashx > >

1851 Census H107 1480 page 1652 onwards Workhouse, St Margaret Westminster, London Sarah ABRAHAMS, Patient, widow, age 63, Sailors widow, born Portsmouth, Hants Sarah LONG, Patient, widow, age 65, Cowman's widow, born Ropley, Hants Sarah HIGHAM, Needlewoman, widow, age 76, Plan Makers widow, born Tufton, Hants Martha JOHNSON, Patient, widow, age 75, Carmans widow, born Whitchurch, Hants Hezekiah HAWKINS, Relief Office Porter, widower, age 59, Carpenter Journeyman, born Southampton, Hants William PRAGNELL, Laundry Man, married, age 68, Brewers Servant, born Southampton, Hants Linda Tasmania, Australia

Dear Terry Thank you so much for the clarification. Obviously, it's not necessarily an easy thing to transcribe a census from 150 years ago, let alone try to work out who is in what household. All help on this query has been very much appreciated though. Thanks to everyone, regards, Jon -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.23/99 - Release Date: 9/12/05

Hi Terry and Jon Thanks for pointing that out Senior moment there i reckon Jon sorry for the false info, but thanks to terry for putting me straight best wishes Shan Manager for Ancestry Aid www.ancestryaid.co.uk -------Original Message------- From: J P NIXEY Date: 09/14/05 17:55:34 To: ENG-HAMPSHIRE-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [ENG-HANTS] Help with an 1861 census check please? Dear Terry Thank you so much for the clarification. Obviously, it's not necessarily an easy thing to transcribe a census from 150 years ago, let alone try to work out who is in what household. All help on this query has been very much appreciated though. Thanks to everyone, regards, Jon -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.23/99 - Release Date: 9/12/05 ============================== Census images 1901, 1891, 1881 and 1871, plus so much more. Ancestry.com's United Kingdom & Ireland Collection. Learn more: http://www ancestry.com/s13968/rd.ashx