Jason If you have a birth certificate (which must be 1837 or later), it would be highly unusual to find a related Bastardy Order. Bastardy Orders were related to the Poor Law Union legislation and do not usually occur after 1834 when the Poor Law Union laws were changed. After this time claims against alleged fathers would have been pursued through Petty Sessions, if they were pursued at all. Jon Baker Jason Holmes wrote: > Hello all. I was asking a while ago about Mary Ann SPRATT. I have now > received her birth certificate, but now stuck with it. Charani wrote: You have very little chance of finding out who the father was unless there's a bastardy order, ie Harriet sought maintenance from the father for the child.

Only difference is that often no payment was offered or accepted for the childs upkeep by the family looking after the child. Chris ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sandra J Smith" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Friday, March 23, 2007 11:06 AM Subject: Re: [ENG-HANTS] Nurse Child Hi Sheila, A nurse child was a child who was "farmed out" to another, usually as a small infant, but sometimes lasting for many years. (I have come across one of 14 years of age). I would say that the nearest modern day equivalent is a "foster child". HTH Sandra [email protected] wrote: >Could someone please explain the definition of Nurse Child. The child is on >a >census return age 4 years and leaving with a woman with a different surname >age 57 yrs. >Thank you in advance for any help you can give me. Sheila </HTML> > >............................................. >Want to contact the local community? >Please visit Hampshire Parish Jottings >http://hants.parishjottings.org.uk >............................................. > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >[email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ............................................. Want to contact the local community? Please visit Hampshire Parish Jottings http://hants.parishjottings.org.uk ............................................. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message --- avast! Antivirus: Inbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 000727-0, 03/22/2007 Tested on: 3/23/2007 12:11:01 PM avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2007 ALWIL Software. http://www.avast.com

Charani, I did some research recently in the burial registers of Stepney and it appeared to be a frequent occurence for people to just dump the body of a deceased infant over the church yard wall, presumably knowing that someone would find it and give it a decent pauper's burial. Sandra Charani wrote: >Chris & Caroline wrote: > > > >>One solution to her problem was the baby farmer. This person would for a >>small fee, offer to take care of the infant. As soon as the money stopped >>coming (or before), the infant would be starved to death or just dumped in a >>convenient place. >> >> > >Which may account for this entry I found yesterday in the burial >register for Keynsham, Somerset: > >"A male child found in a field in the Parish of Keynsham bur 18 Nov >1840, supposed to be five weeks old" > >It's the first time I've seen anything like that in a register. It >really is so sad. > > >

Chris & Caroline wrote: > One solution to her problem was the baby farmer. This person would for a > small fee, offer to take care of the infant. As soon as the money stopped > coming (or before), the infant would be starved to death or just dumped in a > convenient place. Which may account for this entry I found yesterday in the burial register for Keynsham, Somerset: "A male child found in a field in the Parish of Keynsham bur 18 Nov 1840, supposed to be five weeks old" It's the first time I've seen anything like that in a register. It really is so sad. -- Charani (UK)

No there was no gunpowder factory in Bartley as I lived there as well but............... In a small glade near Eyeworth Lake was the Schultz Gunpowder Factory and this brought employment to Fritham, it was built to produce ammunition for sporting guns mainly and most of the inhabitants worked there, the Schultz company eventually took over the tin chapel and a new brick building was built in its place. The gunpowder factory closed a few year after 1912 and the the village went back to its carefree life again. SOUTHERN LIFE(UK) http://Southernlife.org.uk History of the IOW and Hampshires Villages,Towns and Churches ----- Original Message ----- From: "Colyn Blundell" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Friday, March 23, 2007 1:39 AM Subject: Re: [ENG-HANTS] Gunpowder Factory Hello Jason I don't know offhand about Bartley but there was certainly a gunpowder factory at Fritham, in the New Forest. MR 179/235140. Fritham is about five or six miles from Bartley, although up a rather steep hill. However, Bartley, at that time of late 1800's, could have extended quite a long way into the Forest. I hope to have more information for you tomorrow, as I will ask my mother who was brought up in Bartley and although 87 years of age, still has all her faculties. Colyn. ............................................. Want to contact the local community? Please visit Hampshire Parish Jottings http://hants.parishjottings.org.uk ............................................. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message --- avast! Antivirus: Inbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 000727-0, 03/22/2007 Tested on: 3/23/2007 12:10:30 PM avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2007 ALWIL Software. http://www.avast.com

A nursechild was a standard term for an infant foster child. It is not necessarily the case that a nursechild was being nursed (breastfed) by a woman in the same household. The nursechild may have been fostered out for a number of reasons, such as the loss of one or both parents, or the parents being unable to look after the child due to reduced circumstances. Before the Elizabethan poorlaw was changed in the 19th-century care of illegitimate children and their mothers was haphazard. The 19th-century poor law changed this and placed the responsibility on the mother. Most times, she was unable to hold a job and to feed the infant. One solution to her problem was the baby farmer. This person would for a small fee, offer to take care of the infant. As soon as the money stopped coming (or before), the infant would be starved to death or just dumped in a convenient place. This procedure continued until the end of the century when horror stories in the newspapers, compelled the government to act. Chris ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brad Rogers" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Friday, March 23, 2007 11:05 AM Subject: Re: [ENG-HANTS] Nurse Child On Fri, 23 Mar 2007 06:49:46 EDT [email protected] wrote: Hello [email protected], > Could someone please explain the definition of Nurse Child. The child > is on a census return age 4 years and leaving with a woman with a > different surname age 57 yrs. For whatever reason, the child's mother was unable to look after the child, and the father couldn't either. Possibly mother died during labour? The child has been homed with someone, possibly (but not necessarily) family, that is willing and able to look after the youngster. -- Regards _ / ) "The blindingly obvious is / _)rad never immediately apparent" Sign away your life Tin Soldiers - Stiff Little Fingers ............................................. Want to contact the local community? Please visit Hampshire Parish Jottings http://hants.parishjottings.org.uk ............................................. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message --- avast! Antivirus: Inbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 000727-0, 03/22/2007 Tested on: 3/23/2007 12:11:00 PM avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2007 ALWIL Software. http://www.avast.com

[email protected] wrote: > Could someone please explain the definition of Nurse Child. The child is on a > census return age 4 years and leaving with a woman with a different surname > age 57 yrs. A nurse child is what would be called a foster child today. The arrangements were often made within the extended family but not always. -- Charani (UK)

Hi Sheila, A nurse child was a child who was "farmed out" to another, usually as a small infant, but sometimes lasting for many years. (I have come across one of 14 years of age). I would say that the nearest modern day equivalent is a "foster child". HTH Sandra [email protected] wrote: >Could someone please explain the definition of Nurse Child. The child is on a >census return age 4 years and leaving with a woman with a different surname >age 57 yrs. >Thank you in advance for any help you can give me. Sheila </HTML> > >............................................. >Want to contact the local community? >Please visit Hampshire Parish Jottings >http://hants.parishjottings.org.uk >............................................. > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > >

On Fri, 23 Mar 2007 06:49:46 EDT [email protected] wrote: Hello [email protected], > Could someone please explain the definition of Nurse Child. The child > is on a census return age 4 years and leaving with a woman with a > different surname age 57 yrs. For whatever reason, the child's mother was unable to look after the child, and the father couldn't either. Possibly mother died during labour? The child has been homed with someone, possibly (but not necessarily) family, that is willing and able to look after the youngster. -- Regards _ / ) "The blindingly obvious is / _)rad never immediately apparent" Sign away your life Tin Soldiers - Stiff Little Fingers

Thank you Charani and those who gave some information. That part of the tree may become a dead end for a while, but atleast on the husbands side I can still work on. I have another question, but this is not regarding a birth. Mary's husband, Stephen James HOLMES worked at a Gun Powder Factory in Bartley, or around there in the late 1800s. Is it still there? This information came from the birth certificate of their son, Albert William HOLMES. Also, I would like to know if there are any HOLMES descendants of John and Kitty (SPRATT) HOLMES, Stephen and Elizabeth (WINKWORTH) HOLMES still living in the Hampshire areas of Titchfield, Bartley, Minstead, Lyndhurst, Bramshaw? Thanks again, Jace -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Charani Sent: Friday, 23 March 2007 8:23 a.m. To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [ENG-HANTS] Birth Certificate Jason Holmes wrote: > Hello all. I was asking a while ago about Mary Ann SPRATT. I have now > received her birth certificate, but now stuck with it. I mean, her mother > is listed, but no father and no father occupation. As many of you > mentioned, it appeared that she may be illegitimate and I think this proves > it. However, is there a way to ever find out who the father is? I have > located the marriage certificate and have ordered that today, but don't know > what British certificates have on them. I was thinking that Harriet Jane > SPRATT (mother of Mary Ann) had Mary with her 'boyfriend' Henry Smith before > they got married. However, it dawned on me that she could have got together > with anyone before she married Henry. Is there a way to find her real > father? You have very little chance of finding out who the father was unless there's a bastardy order, ie Harriet sought maintenance from the father for the child. The man Harriet married may or may not have been the father of her child but err on the side that he wasn't even if the child took his name. All an *English/Welsh* certificates will have on it is the name of the parties concerned, their ages (if you're lucky, if not, it'll just say "full age", occupation of the groom, addresses for both parties, the fathers' names and occupation. You'll also get the witnesses. And that is it. (Scottish certificates have a lot more information on them.) Things to be aware of are (1) that full age is supposed to mean 21 and over, but most people have at least one example in their trees where one or both supposedly full age parties were actually underage. (2) An illegitimate child can, and often did, invent a father for the sake of appearances, who was deceased. (3) Just because a father is not shown as deceased doesn't mean he was actually still alive. Conversely a deceased father (if not invented) might actually still be living. You'll find this site useful for what is and is not on English/Welsh certificates: http://home.clara.net/dixons/Certificates/indexbd.htm -- Charani (UK) ............................................. Want to contact the local community? Please visit Hampshire Parish Jottings http://hants.parishjottings.org.uk ............................................. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Thank you all very much for the explanation of nurse child. Best wishes, Sheila </HTML>

Hello all. I was asking a while ago about Mary Ann SPRATT. I have now received her birth certificate, but now stuck with it. I mean, her mother is listed, but no father and no father occupation. As many of you mentioned, it appeared that she may be illegitimate and I think this proves it. However, is there a way to ever find out who the father is? I have located the marriage certificate and have ordered that today, but don't know what British certificates have on them. I was thinking that Harriet Jane SPRATT (mother of Mary Ann) had Mary with her 'boyfriend' Henry Smith before they got married. However, it dawned on me that she could have got together with anyone before she married Henry. Is there a way to find her real father? Jace

Could someone please explain the definition of Nurse Child. The child is on a census return age 4 years and leaving with a woman with a different surname age 57 yrs. Thank you in advance for any help you can give me. Sheila </HTML>

Hello Jason I don't know offhand about Bartley but there was certainly a gunpowder factory at Fritham, in the New Forest. MR 179/235140. Fritham is about five or six miles from Bartley, although up a rather steep hill. However, Bartley, at that time of late 1800's, could have extended quite a long way into the Forest. I hope to have more information for you tomorrow, as I will ask my mother who was brought up in Bartley and although 87 years of age, still has all her faculties. Colyn.

Margot Avey wrote: > Thank you Charani! YW :)) > I have looked at the other children of George and Sophia - Julia E. is > listed as the last in the group, but her birth "doesn't jive". Mary Anne and > Jane Griffin were the first two sisters born and that is what leads me to > believe she could be one of theirs. All the rest of the siblings were born > in Hampshire. You do get a gut feeling about families when you've been dealing with them for a while. Yes, it's possible that one of the older sisters was the mother, esp as Julia is described as a grand dau. -- Charani (UK)

Thanks Carol -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of [email protected] Sent: 22 March 2007 17:40 To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [ENG-HANTS] Nicknames on Marriage certificates In 1891 my grandmother Ellen married in her known name Nelly. Did people not have to prove who they were when they got married back then? Carol ............................................. Want to contact the local community? Please visit Hampshire Parish Jottings http://hants.parishjottings.org.uk ............................................. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Margot Avey wrote: > Is there an online listing of illegitimate births for 1866? The birth in > question is Julia Emily Griffin. All the rest of her siblings were born in > Winchester in the Worthys. Her mother may have been either Mary Anne or Jane > Griffin both born in Winchester. Father is unknown. In fact she is a bit of > a conundrum as there is so much fluxuation regarding her birth. She was > actually born in London (Islington) in 1866 and not Hampshire. The > registration detail per FreeBMD is Julia E Griffin Mar 1866, Islington 1b > 294. In the 1871 census she is shown as Eliza Julia born 1866, the > granddaughter of George and Sophia. In the 1881 census she is shown as > Julia E born 1863, the sister of Thomas Griffin. As she is my great > grandmother, I would like to know more about her!!! There is no separate listing of illegitimate births for any year. They are included in the normal GRO indices with no indication given whether they are illegitimate or not. Once the DoVE Project comes online next year, that may give a suggestion as to whether a child is illegitimate or not (the mother's maiden name being the same as the child's) but that is only effective for the more unusual names. With names like SMITH, JONES, BROWN, it won't help. I'd suggest first of all getting the birth certificate to see who her mother was and whether she really was illegitimate. It might also be an idea to have a look to see who George and Sophia's children were. -- Charani (UK)

Jason Holmes wrote: > Hello all. I was asking a while ago about Mary Ann SPRATT. I have now > received her birth certificate, but now stuck with it. I mean, her mother > is listed, but no father and no father occupation. As many of you > mentioned, it appeared that she may be illegitimate and I think this proves > it. However, is there a way to ever find out who the father is? I have > located the marriage certificate and have ordered that today, but don't know > what British certificates have on them. I was thinking that Harriet Jane > SPRATT (mother of Mary Ann) had Mary with her 'boyfriend' Henry Smith before > they got married. However, it dawned on me that she could have got together > with anyone before she married Henry. Is there a way to find her real > father? You have very little chance of finding out who the father was unless there's a bastardy order, ie Harriet sought maintenance from the father for the child. The man Harriet married may or may not have been the father of her child but err on the side that he wasn't even if the child took his name. All an *English/Welsh* certificates will have on it is the name of the parties concerned, their ages (if you're lucky, if not, it'll just say "full age", occupation of the groom, addresses for both parties, the fathers' names and occupation. You'll also get the witnesses. And that is it. (Scottish certificates have a lot more information on them.) Things to be aware of are (1) that full age is supposed to mean 21 and over, but most people have at least one example in their trees where one or both supposedly full age parties were actually underage. (2) An illegitimate child can, and often did, invent a father for the sake of appearances, who was deceased. (3) Just because a father is not shown as deceased doesn't mean he was actually still alive. Conversely a deceased father (if not invented) might actually still be living. You'll find this site useful for what is and is not on English/Welsh certificates: http://home.clara.net/dixons/Certificates/indexbd.htm -- Charani (UK)

[email protected] wrote: > In 1891 my grandmother Ellen married in her known name Nelly. Did people > not have to prove who they were when they got married back then? No, and they still don't. -- Charani (UK)

Thank you Charani! I have looked at the other children of George and Sophia - Julia E. is listed as the last in the group, but her birth "doesn't jive". Mary Anne and Jane Griffin were the first two sisters born and that is what leads me to believe she could be one of theirs. All the rest of the siblings were born in Hampshire. Margot On 3/22/07 3:28 PM, "Charani" <[email protected]> wrote: > Margot Avey wrote: > >> Is there an online listing of illegitimate births for 1866? The birth in >> question is Julia Emily Griffin. All the rest of her siblings were born in >> Winchester in the Worthys. Her mother may have been either Mary Anne or Jane >> Griffin both born in Winchester. Father is unknown. In fact she is a bit of >> a conundrum as there is so much fluxuation regarding her birth. She was >> actually born in London (Islington) in 1866 and not Hampshire. The >> registration detail per FreeBMD is Julia E Griffin Mar 1866, Islington 1b >> 294. In the 1871 census she is shown as Eliza Julia born 1866, the >> granddaughter of George and Sophia. In the 1881 census she is shown as >> Julia E born 1863, the sister of Thomas Griffin. As she is my great >> grandmother, I would like to know more about her!!! > > There is no separate listing of illegitimate births for any year. > They are included in the normal GRO indices with no indication given > whether they are illegitimate or not. > > Once the DoVE Project comes online next year, that may give a > suggestion as to whether a child is illegitimate or not (the mother's > maiden name being the same as the child's) but that is only effective > for the more unusual names. With names like SMITH, JONES, BROWN, it > won't help. > > I'd suggest first of all getting the birth certificate to see who her > mother was and whether she really was illegitimate. It might also be > an idea to have a look to see who George and Sophia's children were. --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! ---