Hi Linda & Tony, I was able to locate the burial location of my ggf, George Smith, through Jackie Clark. He's buried at Kingston Cemetery. I was surprised to learn that his eldest son. 8, died just six months later and is buried in the same unmarked grave. I have begun to think I might like to place a grave marker but, of course, have no idea where to start (except perhaps through Jackie). Would like to know if you have any suggestions as to how to go about doing so. As I live several thousand miles away, it would be nice to get a recommendation rather than risk going to someone of dubious reputation. Thanks for any help. Michael Kinney Portland, Oregon

Hello. I've recd conflicting answers to the question "Were convict hulks included in the 1841C?" - particularly in Portsmouth. My rellie was on the LEVIATHAN in February 1838, having been committed and sentenced in Suffolk. I had assumed he would be sent out soon afterwards but have since learned that prisoners were often kept on hulks for several years. I've also been told that sometimes prisoners were sent to work outside the prison ships if they had special skills. Is that a possibility? If anyone can help I would be most grateful. Thnak you. Joan in Surrey UK

Hi Joan Don’t know about inclusion in Censuses, but it should be easy to check if you go through all the Portsmouth returns in the Census (on ancestry.com). As far as convicts being sent out to work is concerned, this was certainly the case, as one of my ancestors, Thomas Dunn, was a prisoner only the hulk Fortunée in Langstone Harbour Portsmouth , was sent out to work every day building the nearby Fort Cumberland, “health and weather permitting”. (Source Treasury Board Papers, Hulk Returns 1783-1803, Fortunée and Hospital Hulks, Langstone Harbour, 21 June 1796 – 32 December 1798). The Fort was part of an ill-conceived scheme to fortify the south coast, a scheme that was ultimately abandoned, prompting the historian Edward Gibbon to comment after a visit that: To raise this bulwark at enormous price The head of folly used the hand of vice. A visitor to Portsmouth in 1807 confirmed this (see Margaret J Hoad, Portsmouth – As Others Have Seen It. Part II 1790-1900. Portsmouth, Portsmouth City Council, 1973. Portsmouth Papers, 20. Pp.9-10.) “A number of convicts from the hulks with lie in the harbour, were at work, in chains; they were making a shew of pulling a cable: but the progression of their labour was very imperceptible; and indeed it is a matter of wonder how they can be brought to work at all; since I was informed, though I think the guide must be mistaken, that there are neither any indulgences for labour, nor any punishments for indolence. Others of them came about the party begging, or selling small wares manufactured from bone. The guide warned us to take care of our pockets; and said that the last week one of them stole a purse from a lady: and upon being challenged with theft, boldly demanded that he be searched; but the guide, pushing him back, removed his foot from its place, and disclosed the property, which he had covered with it. There is here a very old convict who has been twice transported for fourteen years, exclusive of his present term in the hulks, if which he has only four years to run.” Finally, John Webb, in The Spirit of Portsmouth: a history (Chichester, 1989, pp. 50-51) writes that the Dockyard authorities in Portsmouth used convicts from the hulks in the 1830s to work in the Yard. Regards Neville Potter Canberra, Australia > From: jojo.col@virgin.net> To: ENG-HAM-PORTSMOUTH-GOSPORT@rootsweb.com> Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 22:38:22 +0100> Subject: [PORTSMOUTH-GOSPORT] Convict hulks and 1841C> > Hello. I've recd conflicting answers to the question "Were convict hulks included in the 1841C?" - particularly in Portsmouth. My rellie was on the LEVIATHAN in February 1838, having been committed and sentenced in Suffolk. I had assumed he would be sent out soon afterwards but have since learned that prisoners were often kept on hulks for several years. I've also been told that sometimes prisoners were sent to work outside the prison ships if they had special skills. Is that a possibility? If anyone can help I would be most grateful. Thnak you. Joan in Surrey UK > > -------------------------------> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ENG-HAM-PORTSMOUTH-GOSPORT-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live Hotmail is giving away Zunes. Enter for your chance to win. http://www.windowslive-hotmail.com/ZuneADay/?locale=en-US&ocid=TXT_TAGLM_Mobile_Zune_V3

Hello all Today we have uploaded as follows: GREATHAM BURIALS AND BAPTISMS 1558-1637 transcribed by JAN AAGAARD ALVERTOKE MARRIAGES 1837-1840 transcribed by LINDA KNIGHT You can check on these and all of the other transcriptions FREE online at www.knightroots.co.uk and click on Online Transcriptions. We are always looking for donations of transcriptions or microfiche, village histories and photographs (must be your own copyright)or of course, volunteer transcribers. Contact hampshireopc@btinternet.com for details. To find an entry, either use the CTRL+Find on an individual parish page - or use the site search engine on the left hand navigation pane. Take care Linda & Tony Hampshire OPC Co-ordinators

There's an entry for him in the Southampton section of the National Roll of the Great War. It gives his medal entitlement - General Service and Victory Medals - and what I assume is supposed to be an address at 327, Portswood, Southampton. Portswood itself is a district in Southampton, though there are Portswood Avenue, Park and Road in the city. Ian JAN HIBBERD wrote: > Evening Edna > > Hope all is well with you. > > I did go on the War Graves site but there is no further information > > Regards > > Jan >

Evening Edna Hope all is well with you. I did go on the War Graves site but there is no further information Regards Jan liverpud <liverpud-49@rogers.com> wrote: Hi, More details on this fellow might be found on the CWGC Commonwealth War Graves Commission site. Edna - Ottawa ----- Original Message ----- From: "JAN HIBBERD" To: "tony and linda site" Sent: Monday, June 30, 2008 11:26 AM Subject: [PORTSMOUTH-GOSPORT] leonard north died WW1 Can anybody make a claim to a Private Leonard North who was born in Southampton and enlisted into the 13th Hussars at Bristol. He died during WW1 at sea on 15/4/1917 and his 'death penny', is up for sale on this website. http://www.northeastmedals.co.uk/191418/pics2/b5020.htm ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ENG-HAM-PORTSMOUTH-GOSPORT-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ENG-HAM-PORTSMOUTH-GOSPORT-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Can anybody make a claim to a Private Leonard North who was born in Southampton and enlisted into the 13th Hussars at Bristol. He died during WW1 at sea on 15/4/1917 and his 'death penny', is up for sale on this website. http://www.northeastmedals.co.uk/191418/pics2/b5020.htm

Hi, More details on this fellow might be found on the CWGC Commonwealth War Graves Commission site. Edna - Ottawa ----- Original Message ----- From: "JAN HIBBERD" <jan.hibberd@btinternet.com> To: "tony and linda site" <eng-ham-portsmouth-gosport@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, June 30, 2008 11:26 AM Subject: [PORTSMOUTH-GOSPORT] leonard north died WW1 Can anybody make a claim to a Private Leonard North who was born in Southampton and enlisted into the 13th Hussars at Bristol. He died during WW1 at sea on 15/4/1917 and his 'death penny', is up for sale on this website. http://www.northeastmedals.co.uk/191418/pics2/b5020.htm ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ENG-HAM-PORTSMOUTH-GOSPORT-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Shannon, if he was in the Royal Marines then it seems the Ireland born William would be the right one. The confusion may be to do with where you got the birth on Hayling Island from. The RM records are not downloadable from the National Archives, unlike the naval records, unfortunately, and they can be a problem to find, without a peronal visit to TNA or the help of a professional researcher, which is what I wwnt to for an ancestor. Regards, Ian CALLADINEB@aol.com wrote: > Hello Ian > > I have to admit I'm a bit confused right now - only a bit. > > I do know for a fact that my William was a Sgt in the Royal Marines as it is > written on his daughter's birth certificate, as is the childs mothers name of > Amelia. > > Do you think my William was the one born in Ireland then please? > > The reason I believe he was born in 1837 is that Tony and Linda found his > burial in March 1874 for me. It gave an age and I did the math to come up with > a possible birth date of 1836. It was someone else who told me he was born in > Hayling Island Hants. > > Which one do you believe is my William for the above please? > > Thank you very much for your help in trying to find them for me. > > Shannon >

wrote >I do know for a fact that my William was a Sgt in the Royal Marines Now that you say that I've looked again at the image I have sent you and I think it does say Sergt Marines. It doesn't look the same as for the Visitor where it does look like Royal Marines. >Do you think my William was the one born in Ireland then please? On balance, I think the Irish one is the more likely. > >The reason I believe he was born in 1837 is that Tony and Linda found >his burial in March 1874 for me. It gave an age and I did the math to >come up with a possible birth date of 1836. The one in the image I sent is aged 36 in 1871. That makes his year of both 1834/35 which is closer to your estimate than the other one, if Ian is correct about him being 30. Don't forget, age at death is not always accurate - depends if the person reporting the death knew the exact age. > It was someone else who told me he was born in Hayling Island Hants. Obviously there *was* a William Hawkins born in Hayling Island as William G was born there. It is probable that that is what your informant knew of. But did they know that was definitely "your* William Hawkins? If you have only ever found him referred to as William Hawkins (including his burial record and the Birth Certificate of his daughter) it is doubtful that he was actually William George. On balance, I think it much more likely that the Irish one is "your" William Hawkins, but you need to find solid proof. How did you find that you had a connection to a William Hawkins and that he was married to Amelia and had the daughter you mention? If you have the child's BC it should give the maiden name of the mother. Was she Amelia Stephens? Get the Marriage Cert for William Hawkins and see if he did marry Amelia Stephens and if by any chance one of the witnesses was named Osborne (you'd be very lucky, but you never know!). You might also need to do more research into William George in order to rule him in or out if you can't make a definitive connection to William. -- Jenny M Benson

Alas Ian, I can't get anywhere - I cannot swim across the sea from America. lol Thank you for your advice. Shannon

Hello Ian I have to admit I'm a bit confused right now - only a bit. I do know for a fact that my William was a Sgt in the Royal Marines as it is written on his daughter's birth certificate, as is the childs mothers name of Amelia. Do you think my William was the one born in Ireland then please? The reason I believe he was born in 1837 is that Tony and Linda found his burial in March 1874 for me. It gave an age and I did the math to come up with a possible birth date of 1836. It was someone else who told me he was born in Hayling Island Hants. Which one do you believe is my William for the above please? Thank you very much for your help in trying to find them for me. Shannon

Ian Thirlwell wrote >there have been two different William Hawkins identified for you in >1871 so far. The first was William G Hawkins, born Haylng Island, the >other apparently with a wife Amelia, but born Ireland. The occupation >of the latter may have been Royal Marine rather than just mariner >(there's another marine further down the page. I think you are right about Royal Marines, Ian, although the writing is appalling! I wouldn't be too bothered about the birthplace being Ireland - one can never rely 100% on what it says on a Census sheet. Shannon, this family tie in very well with a marriage in Jun Q 19595, Alverstoke (2b, 671) where one of the parties is William Hawkins and the other possibly Amelia Stephens. This in turn ties in with the birth of an Amelia Stephens in Jun Q 1838 in Isle of Wight (8, 225). That Marriage Certificate might confirm it for you, or if you can tie in the nephew John Osborne to what you already know of William or Amelia. I wonder if Maria Hawkins on the same page (Census) is related.) Image sent off-list. -- Jenny M Benson

Shannon, there have been two different William Hawkins identified for you in 1871 so far. The first was William G Hawkins, born Haylng Island, the other apparently with a wife Amelia, but born Ireland. The occupation of the latter may have been Royal Marine rather than just mariner (there's another marine further down the page. William G Hawkins from Hayling would appear to be William George Hawkins whose navy record is available to download from the National Archives documentsonline, cost £3-50. In the 1871 census he was a leading seaman with the ship Hercules, and married but his wife was obviously not with him. The navy record has his birth date as 11 July 1840, according to the brief details on the search hit. These dates are known not always to be very accurate however. The Ancestry index has his birth year as 1837, but I think this is wrong. His age on the image is partly obscured and looks more like 30, giving birth year 1840/41. Ian CALLADINEB@aol.com wrote: > This could be them, please could I have a copy Jenny. > > Thank you. > > Shannon > >

This could be them, please could I have a copy Jenny. Thank you. Shannon

Yes please very much so - that is my William Hawkins. Thank you Shannon

wrote >I have a William Hawkins born Hayling 1837, in the navy and his wife >Amelia born c.1838 Isle of Wight. They were probably living in Gosport >Alverstoke where they married and had their children. > >Thank you if anyone can find them in the 1861 or in the 1871. I don't >know of any children except a dau. born in 1872. That would be a great >find. There is a household in the 1871 Census which comprises William Hawkins (something Mariner - can't read first word), Amelia Hawkins his wife, George Williams a visitor, John W Osborne a nephew, William J Hawkins (5) a son and Amelia E Hawkins a daughter (2) He is listed as being born in Ireland in abt 1835 and her in Isle of Wight in about 1837. The Ancestry transcription is appalling and they are listed as Willa and Amelia Hawkin, Wilen J Haustein and Amelia Hawstein. The reference is RG10/1150/74/11. I can send you the image if you think this might be them. Do you know when they were married and/or what Amelia's maiden name was? -- Jenny M Benson

I have a William Hawkins born Hayling 1837, in the navy and his wife Amelia born c.1838 Isle of Wight. They were probably living in Gosport Alverstoke where they married and had their children. Thank you if anyone can find them in the 1861 or in the 1871. I don't know of any children except a dau. born in 1872. That would be a great find. Thank you again Shannon

I found a William G. Hawkins in 1871 in the navy in Hampshire and he is listed as married - do you want a copy of the census? > From: CALLADINEB@aol.com > Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 12:17:20 -0400 > To: eng-ham-portsmouth-gosport@rootsweb.com > Subject: [PORTSMOUTH-GOSPORT] possible 1861 or 1871 census look up please? > > I have a William Hawkins born Hayling 1837, in the navy and his wife Amelia > born c.1838 Isle of Wight. > They were probably living in Gosport Alverstoke where they married and had > their children. > > Thank you if anyone can find them in the 1861 or in the 1871. I don't know > of any children except a dau. born in 1872. That would be a great find. > > > Thank you again > Shannon > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ENG-HAM-PORTSMOUTH-GOSPORT-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message _________________________________________________________________ Try Chicktionary, a game that tests how many words you can form from the letters given. Find this and more puzzles at Live Search Games! http://g.msn.ca/ca55/207

> Hi Rita, Actually KEW does not have the Haslar register of admissions for that time period. I was doing research at KEW in April and it would have helped me tremendously had I had access to those records. It seems that there is an problem with the catalogue for ADM 305. There is an annotation that those records have been transferred to ADM 304. However, those (304) are the records for the hospital at Malta. I spoke with one of the volunteer staff members who told me that the catalogue needs to be corrected. But even then, the admissions log book only shows the date of admission and the diagnosis when admitted. There is no link to the separate death log book (if it's even available for that period). Thanks to everyone who replied and to Linda and Tony for the lookup. I've sent an e-mail to Jackie Clark asking if she has something. In answer to your question, Rita: the death cert notes "cerebral disease" and "phthisia" so I guess it was TB that did him in. It appears that he did not quite make it to a full 20 years in RN so I assume his family (wife & 5 children) got nothing when he died. So now I need to try to discover what happened to his family before they came to the US in 1883 (12 years after his death). They do not appear in the 1881 census and I suspect they were in Ireland (her birthplace). Michael Kinney Portland, Oregon > Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 22:26:19 +0100 > From: "Rita Newton" <Rita@ritanewton.wanadoo.co.uk> > Subject: Re: [PORTSMOUTH-GOSPORT] Burial - George Smith - 1871 > To: <eng-ham-portsmouth-gosport@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID: <002f01c8d70a$32cc6540$51b04f51@userfjs4227gib> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > > Do you know why he was at Hasler Hospital? The hospital records are > at Kew. > Rita