Hi Jenny, Someone is going to check HRO for me.I will check the Church register again for him. J C Clarke's birth year came from the Church record of his baptism and this fits in with his ages on the census for 1871/81 and with his death certificate. Given the circumstances of his birth, he may not have been registered. I did check quite a few James Cole Clarke, James C Clarke and J Clarke's in different parts of the country but as the parents details didn't match they didn't supply birth certificates. Regards Bazzer ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jenny M Benson" <genes@cedarbank.me.uk> To: <ENG-HAM-PORTSMOUTH-GOSPORT-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, July 04, 2008 3:11 PM Subject: Re: [PORTSMOUTH-GOSPORT] Brick walls James CLARKE(b177 & JamesCole Clarke(b1866) > > Bazzer wrote >>The above are my brick walls. James CLARKE was born in Widley c1777/8/9 >>(according to 1841-51 census).He was a brewer and running The King & >>Queen Inn, High Street Cosham until his death in 1860 aged 81. He >>married Elizabeth COLE in Dec1813 at St Peter the Great Chichester. I >>can't find his birth record or who his parents/siblings were. > > Unfortunately the FHL Catalogue only lists one film for Widley, and that > is BTs from 1780-1850, so probably too late for your man. Have you > checked with Hampshire Record Office (or even the current vicar) to see > if records exist for earlier years? > >>James Cole CLARKE is my g/father. he was born in May 1866 in Cosham >>Widley. His parents were James Cole Clarke (b 1824 - d Nov 1865.The son >>of the James b c1777 & Elizabeth b c1794) and Sarah TRIBE (b c1824) As >>you can see he was born shortly after his father died. James was >>married twice, firstly to Alice Mary TILL in 1887 and then to my >>g/mother Fanny Alice SAMWAYS in 1902.I can't find his birth record >>anywhere.He should registered in FAREHAM. As his mother was born in the >>Chichester area I even tried there. I also tried Portsmouth without any >>luck . > > There are a few possibilities: > > 1 His birth was never registered. (*) > 2 He was only named as James Clarke when registered. > 3 He was born somewhere totally unexpected - never rely on "should have > been." > > Have you looked at Fareham Church Registers for his Baptism? (Remember, > he may not have been baptised at all or maybe not until was anything > from a few months old to adult.) > > (*) It occurs to me that as he was not born until 6 months after his > father's death, his mother may have been afraid that she would be > accused of having an illegitimate child. Anyway, just because it was > "the law" doesn't mean that everyone complied with it, for whatever > reason. > -- > Jenny M Benson > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > ENG-HAM-PORTSMOUTH-GOSPORT-request@rootsweb.com with the word > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the > message -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. It has removed 3393 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this message in their emails. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len

Hi Ian The May 1866 date came from the parish church register Bazzer ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ian Thirlwell" <mcinnes.fh@ntlworld.com> To: "Bazzer" <baz@clarkeology.com>; <eng-ham-portsmouth-gosport@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, July 04, 2008 12:03 PM Subject: Re: [PORTSMOUTH-GOSPORT] Brick walls James CLARKE(b177 & James Cole Clarke(b1866) > Bazzer, > if the May 1866 date came from the IGI entry then remember this is the > baptism/christening date. It may be worth checking the original entry on > 'fiche in the Portsmouth Record Office for any further information that > would help. > Ian > > Bazzer wrote: >> Hi Listers, >> The above are my brick walls. James CLARKE was born in Widley c1777/8/9 >> (according to 1841-51 census).He was a brewer and running The King & >> Queen >> Inn, High Street Cosham until his death in 1860 aged 81. He married >> Elizabeth COLE in Dec1813 at St Peter the Great Chichester. I can't find >> his >> birth record or who his parents/siblings were. >> James Cole CLARKE is my g/father. he was born in May 1866 in Cosham >> Widley. >> His parents were James Cole Clarke (b 1824 - d Nov 1865.The son of the >> James >> b c1777 & Elizabeth b c1794) and Sarah TRIBE (b c1824) As you can see he >> was >> born shortly after his father died. James was married twice, firstly to >> Alice Mary TILL in 1887 and then to my g/mother Fanny Alice SAMWAYS in >> 1902.I can't find his birth record anywhere.He should registered in >> FAREHAM. >> As his mother was born in the Chichester area I even tried there. I also >> tried Portsmouth without any luck . >> I know from past experience that there are a lot of clever (creep, creep) >> people on this list who seem to be able to produce vast amounts of >> information as if by magic. Can anyone help please. >> Regards >> Bazzer >> Portchester >> Fareham >> Hampshire >> >> >> > -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. It has removed 3393 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this message in their emails. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len

My great great grandmother, was Ann DEVONSHIRE, born in Portsea around 1817, and married to Daniel CHALMERS. I have found her on the 1841 census as Ann CHALMERS, and living next door to Jane DEVONSHIRE and Catherine DEVONSHIRE, whom I suspect as being her mother and sister, but I have no way, as yet, of proving this. This is my brick wall as I know nothing more about this elusive family. Does anyone have any links to or information of the DEVONSHIRE family? John Cameron-Cornish

Going through my file updating Sources, I realised that I had two separate instances of the surname BOYS. In 1818 there was a marriage between Henry Lewis and Ann Paul; I believe Ann was the daughter of my 3G Granduncle. Their son Henry John Lewis married Susan Louisa Tayler on the Isle of Wight in 1848. Susan was the daughter of James Tayler and Susan Boys. I believe Susan Boys was born in Gosport around 1807. My 3G Grandaunt Susan(na) Paul, baptised Gosport in 1779 married a John Boys. I don't know anything else about him, he is mentioned as her husband in her father's Will. If I am correct in who Ann Paul is, Susan Paul is her niece. I am thinking that Susan Boys and John Boys are almost certainly related. They were probably about the right ages to be brother and sister. Is anyone on this list connected to John and/or Susan Boys and able to confirm or deny a relationship between them? -- Jenny M Benson

You're right. I thought it looked a bit odd. Ian Jenny M Benson wrote: > Ian Thirlwell wrote > >> It also has Bd under the 'disability' column: blind? >> > > Not Bd. It's BS for British Subject. >

Bazzer wrote >The above are my brick walls. James CLARKE was born in Widley c1777/8/9 >(according to 1841-51 census).He was a brewer and running The King & >Queen Inn, High Street Cosham until his death in 1860 aged 81. He >married Elizabeth COLE in Dec1813 at St Peter the Great Chichester. I >can't find his birth record or who his parents/siblings were. Unfortunately the FHL Catalogue only lists one film for Widley, and that is BTs from 1780-1850, so probably too late for your man. Have you checked with Hampshire Record Office (or even the current vicar) to see if records exist for earlier years? >James Cole CLARKE is my g/father. he was born in May 1866 in Cosham >Widley. His parents were James Cole Clarke (b 1824 - d Nov 1865.The son >of the James b c1777 & Elizabeth b c1794) and Sarah TRIBE (b c1824) As >you can see he was born shortly after his father died. James was >married twice, firstly to Alice Mary TILL in 1887 and then to my >g/mother Fanny Alice SAMWAYS in 1902.I can't find his birth record >anywhere.He should registered in FAREHAM. As his mother was born in the >Chichester area I even tried there. I also tried Portsmouth without any luck . There are a few possibilities: 1 His birth was never registered. (*) 2 He was only named as James Clarke when registered. 3 He was born somewhere totally unexpected - never rely on "should have been." Have you looked at Fareham Church Registers for his Baptism? (Remember, he may not have been baptised at all or maybe not until was anything from a few months old to adult.) (*) It occurs to me that as he was not born until 6 months after his father's death, his mother may have been afraid that she would be accused of having an illegitimate child. Anyway, just because it was "the law" doesn't mean that everyone complied with it, for whatever reason. -- Jenny M Benson

Ian Thirlwell wrote > It also has Bd under the 'disability' column: blind? Not Bd. It's BS for British Subject. -- Jenny M Benson

Bazzer, if the May 1866 date came from the IGI entry then remember this is the baptism/christening date. It may be worth checking the original entry on 'fiche in the Portsmouth Record Office for any further information that would help. Ian Bazzer wrote: > Hi Listers, > The above are my brick walls. James CLARKE was born in Widley c1777/8/9 > (according to 1841-51 census).He was a brewer and running The King & Queen > Inn, High Street Cosham until his death in 1860 aged 81. He married > Elizabeth COLE in Dec1813 at St Peter the Great Chichester. I can't find his > birth record or who his parents/siblings were. > James Cole CLARKE is my g/father. he was born in May 1866 in Cosham Widley. > His parents were James Cole Clarke (b 1824 - d Nov 1865.The son of the James > b c1777 & Elizabeth b c1794) and Sarah TRIBE (b c1824) As you can see he was > born shortly after his father died. James was married twice, firstly to > Alice Mary TILL in 1887 and then to my g/mother Fanny Alice SAMWAYS in > 1902.I can't find his birth record anywhere.He should registered in FAREHAM. > As his mother was born in the Chichester area I even tried there. I also > tried Portsmouth without any luck . > I know from past experience that there are a lot of clever (creep, creep) > people on this list who seem to be able to produce vast amounts of > information as if by magic. Can anyone help please. > Regards > Bazzer > Portchester > Fareham > Hampshire > > >

Hi Listers, The above are my brick walls. James CLARKE was born in Widley c1777/8/9 (according to 1841-51 census).He was a brewer and running The King & Queen Inn, High Street Cosham until his death in 1860 aged 81. He married Elizabeth COLE in Dec1813 at St Peter the Great Chichester. I can't find his birth record or who his parents/siblings were. James Cole CLARKE is my g/father. he was born in May 1866 in Cosham Widley. His parents were James Cole Clarke (b 1824 - d Nov 1865.The son of the James b c1777 & Elizabeth b c1794) and Sarah TRIBE (b c1824) As you can see he was born shortly after his father died. James was married twice, firstly to Alice Mary TILL in 1887 and then to my g/mother Fanny Alice SAMWAYS in 1902.I can't find his birth record anywhere.He should registered in FAREHAM. As his mother was born in the Chichester area I even tried there. I also tried Portsmouth without any luck . I know from past experience that there are a lot of clever (creep, creep) people on this list who seem to be able to produce vast amounts of information as if by magic. Can anyone help please. Regards Bazzer Portchester Fareham Hampshire -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. It has removed 3393 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this message in their emails. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len

Hi there. Thanks for response. Well done on your research and "finds". Must be most gratifying. The fact that some prisoners were used to work in the yards is interesting as I think that is a possibility for my James Josselyn. He was a sawyer by trade and I should think his expertise would be useful, also I'm not sure how many convicts got back to UK after a 7year stint out there. (If NSW was where he was sent.) And he was certainly back in UK by 1851. I shall keep searching. Joan in Surrey. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Neville Potter" <neville_potter@hotmail.com> To: <eng-ham-portsmouth-gosport@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 1:44 AM Subject: Re: [PORTSMOUTH-GOSPORT] Convict hulks and 1841C Hi Joan Don’t know about inclusion in Censuses, but it should be easy to check if you go through all the Portsmouth returns in the Census (on ancestry.com). Canberra, Australia

Jon, you should also checkout Ann Jones and children in the 1841 census in Alverstoke, HO107/388/9 Folio 29 Page 14. The children include Agnes and George, matching these two in 1851. Ann's occupation is needlewoman, also matching 1851. A Thomas Foxall marriage can be found in FreeBMD in 1845 Sep quarter, in Alverstoke, which also has an Ann Jones. Cheers, Ian jonnixey.fh wrote: > Very many thanks Ian! Your time, effort etc is deeply appreciated. > > Kindest regards, > > Jon >

Very many thanks Ian! Your time, effort etc is deeply appreciated. Kindest regards, Jon

Hello Michael In answer to your query about erecting a grave marker, I can pass on my very recent experience. Like yours, some of my ancestors - the Ords and Gamblins are also buried at Kingston Cemetery. One in a grave that had an M.I. but it was apparently taken down as unsafe in the 1970's, and the other never had a headstone. As I live in Edinburgh my first port of call was Jackie Clark. She identified where the graves were and who was buried in them - giving me the exact locations and grave numbers which you will need. She then advised me that I would have to purchase the grave sites and rights before any permission can be given for memorial erections. The reason for this is that at the time of burial the family were given 14 years rights to the graves (it may vary between graves and families) Once that period had expired the rights reverted back to Portsmouth City Council. Grave Purchase Fees - 2008 25 Years Rights - Portsmouth Resident Address - £198.00 25 Years Rights - Non Resident Address - £396.00 She sent me the forms to fill in and send back to P.C.C. When the transaction was completed I received the necessary certificates showing I had purchased the grave and rights. There are strict regulations as to the size and details of M.I.s and Jackie told me only stonemasons that have been registered with P.C.C. are able to work in the cemeteries. She sent me a list of authorised stonemasons and I chose Stonerite Memorials. They have been extremely helpful and it was a simple process. They sent me a comprehensive brochure and I was able to do it all at long distance. The M.I.'s are nearly ready and they are going to send me photographs of the completed and erected memorials. All of the above only took about 10 weeks. Whilst it has not been cheap - due to me being a non resident with the grave purchase, I am very pleased I started the process and feel that the family members buried there (including a little 11 year old who died of measles complications) will have some recognition. Jackie has been superb throughout, so be guided by her. Good luck. June in Edinburgh

Jon, I just checked the 1851 census and the birthplace for Thomas is given as Ostend, Brtsh Subjt. Ancestry has transcribed Ostend as Ireland! Rest of family: Ann, wife, 40, Hardway Agness V O daur, 12, Alverstoke George E O, son, 10, Gosport William T (or F?), son, 4, Hardway Emily L, daur, 2, Hardway Esther R, daur, 4months, Hardway Ian jonnixey.fh wrote: > Hi Ian, > > Thanks so much for your reply, its very much appreciated. > I've been comparing the household in 1871 with the Foxall family in the 1861 > census. > > 1861 census - Hardway Road, Alverstoke - RG9/646 page 178: > ***Thomas Foxall, head, married, aged 65, Seaman Royal Navy, born belgium, > British subject. > ***Ann Foxall, wife, married, aged 50, seaman's wife, born Hardway, > Alverstoke. > George E Jones, son in law, aged 20, merchant seaman, born Hardway, > Alverstoke. > William Foxall, son, single, aged 15, a labourer in laboratory RN, born > Hardway, Alverstoke. > Emily L Foxall, daughter, single, aged 13, born Hardway, Alverstoke. > ***Esther Foxall, daughter, single, aged 11, born Hardway, Alverstoke. > ***Charlotte Foxall, daughter, single, aged 6, born Hardway, Alverstoke. > > On 1871 Esther has middle initial of "R", the Esther I'm tracing had the > second forename "Rhoda". > > One thing I stupidly forgot to check was Thomas's birthplace in 1871, he was > from Belgium. > Ancestry's transcription of his birthplace is "Amtia, Belgrave", what the > actual place is I don't know. There's certainly enough things pointing to > the fact that it could well be the correct family, well to my way of > thinking anyway? > > Thanks again, best wishes, > > Jon >

Jon, Thomas birthplace in the 1871 census is Belgium. Belgrave is a mistranscription. He is a naval pensioner, age 78. It also has Bd under the 'disability' column: blind? The placename in Belgium is unreadable. Ian jonnixey.fh wrote: > Hi Ian, > > Thanks so much for your reply, its very much appreciated. > I've been comparing the household in 1871 with the Foxall family in the 1861 > census. > > 1861 census - Hardway Road, Alverstoke - RG9/646 page 178: > ***Thomas Foxall, head, married, aged 65, Seaman Royal Navy, born belgium, > British subject. > ***Ann Foxall, wife, married, aged 50, seaman's wife, born Hardway, > Alverstoke. > George E Jones, son in law, aged 20, merchant seaman, born Hardway, > Alverstoke. > William Foxall, son, single, aged 15, a labourer in laboratory RN, born > Hardway, Alverstoke. > Emily L Foxall, daughter, single, aged 13, born Hardway, Alverstoke. > ***Esther Foxall, daughter, single, aged 11, born Hardway, Alverstoke. > ***Charlotte Foxall, daughter, single, aged 6, born Hardway, Alverstoke. > > On 1871 Esther has middle initial of "R", the Esther I'm tracing had the > second forename "Rhoda". > > One thing I stupidly forgot to check was Thomas's birthplace in 1871, he was > from Belgium. > Ancestry's transcription of his birthplace is "Amtia, Belgrave", what the > actual place is I don't know. There's certainly enough things pointing to > the fact that it could well be the correct family, well to my way of > thinking anyway? > > Thanks again, best wishes, > > Jon > >

Hi Ian, Thanks so much for your reply, its very much appreciated. I've been comparing the household in 1871 with the Foxall family in the 1861 census. 1861 census - Hardway Road, Alverstoke - RG9/646 page 178: ***Thomas Foxall, head, married, aged 65, Seaman Royal Navy, born belgium, British subject. ***Ann Foxall, wife, married, aged 50, seaman's wife, born Hardway, Alverstoke. George E Jones, son in law, aged 20, merchant seaman, born Hardway, Alverstoke. William Foxall, son, single, aged 15, a labourer in laboratory RN, born Hardway, Alverstoke. Emily L Foxall, daughter, single, aged 13, born Hardway, Alverstoke. ***Esther Foxall, daughter, single, aged 11, born Hardway, Alverstoke. ***Charlotte Foxall, daughter, single, aged 6, born Hardway, Alverstoke. On 1871 Esther has middle initial of "R", the Esther I'm tracing had the second forename "Rhoda". One thing I stupidly forgot to check was Thomas's birthplace in 1871, he was from Belgium. Ancestry's transcription of his birthplace is "Amtia, Belgrave", what the actual place is I don't know. There's certainly enough things pointing to the fact that it could well be the correct family, well to my way of thinking anyway? Thanks again, best wishes, Jon

Hello Michael We would suggest going through Jackie. It may depend on who owns the plot first. Jackie will almost certainly have a list of reputable firms to go contact. By going through Jackie you will also guidance on what is acceptable to put there and what isn't. Hope this helps,Linda and Tony -----Original Message----- From: eng-ham-portsmouth-gosport-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:eng-ham-portsmouth-gosport-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Mike & Lucky Sent: 03 July 2008 16:55 To: eng-ham-portsmouth-gosport@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PORTSMOUTH-GOSPORT] George Smith burial - 1871 Hi Linda & Tony, I was able to locate the burial location of my ggf, George Smith, through Jackie Clark. He's buried at Kingston Cemetery. I was surprised to learn that his eldest son. 8, died just six months later and is buried in the same unmarked grave. I have begun to think I might like to place a grave marker but, of course, have no idea where to start (except perhaps through Jackie). Would like to know if you have any suggestions as to how to go about doing so. As I live several thousand miles away, it would be nice to get a recommendation rather than risk going to someone of dubious reputation. Thanks for any help. Michael Kinney Portland, Oregon

Hi Joan Try HO107/415/6/3etc There are 629 persons enumerated on the Leviathan Convict Hulk in the 1841 census If you have a particular person I would be glad to look him up for you Brian Shelley WA ----- Original Message ----- From: "joan" <jojo.col@virgin.net> To: <ENG-HAM-PORTSMOUTH-GOSPORT@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 5:38 AM Subject: [PORTSMOUTH-GOSPORT] Convict hulks and 1841C > Hello. I've recd conflicting answers to the question "Were convict hulks > included in the 1841C?" - particularly in Portsmouth. My rellie was on the > LEVIATHAN in February 1838, having been committed and sentenced in > Suffolk. I had assumed he would be sent out soon afterwards but have since > learned that prisoners were often kept on hulks for several years. I've > also been told that sometimes prisoners were sent to work outside the > prison ships if they had special skills. Is that a possibility? If anyone > can help I would be most grateful. Thnak you. Joan in Surrey UK > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > ENG-HAM-PORTSMOUTH-GOSPORT-request@rootsweb.com with the word > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the > message

Jon, the image isn't clear, but it looks as if Thomas has a middle initial, could be interpreted as W, and this has got attached to the surname, causing the confusion. Perhaps the surname is supposed to be Foxhall, but the F looks like T (the family next door has Fs in the names, and are not quite the same) and the x is perhaps ss. Whitehall is stretching it a bit as a transcription I'd have thought. Tosshall or Fosshall seem more likely, looking at the handwriting. Ian jonnixey.fh wrote: > Hi folks, > > I've been hunting for Esther Foxall / Foxhall for some time in the 1871 census and I think I've just stumbled over her indexed as Whitehall. Head of house is Thomas, which was her father's name, and his age is correct too. Esther has an illeg son Henry Albray Foxhall in June 1869 and there is a Henry A Whitehall aged 1 in this household I've found. Esther also had a sister Charlotte and there's a Charlotte of approx correct age there too. Could someone kindly check the image for me please to see if it is indeed Foxhall not Whitehall? Also, could I ask for the household address and any occupations recorded please? > > The Ref is: > RG10; Piece: 1150; Folio: 136; Page: 12; GSU roll: 827790. > > Very many thanks in advance, > > Jon >

Hi folks, I've been hunting for Esther Foxall / Foxhall for some time in the 1871 census and I think I've just stumbled over her indexed as Whitehall. Head of house is Thomas, which was her father's name, and his age is correct too. Esther has an illeg son Henry Albray Foxhall in June 1869 and there is a Henry A Whitehall aged 1 in this household I've found. Esther also had a sister Charlotte and there's a Charlotte of approx correct age there too. Could someone kindly check the image for me please to see if it is indeed Foxhall not Whitehall? Also, could I ask for the household address and any occupations recorded please? The Ref is: RG10; Piece: 1150; Folio: 136; Page: 12; GSU roll: 827790. Very many thanks in advance, Jon