Dear Paul Thanks for your prompt reply. I got those Sandon names from Genesreunited. Obviously some errors involved. Cheers Clive > From: PAUL STACEY <pbkstacey@btinternet.com> > Reply-To: ENG-HAM-PORTSMOUTH-GOSPORT-L@rootsweb.com > Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 14:36:41 +0100 (BST) > To: ENG-HAM-PORTSMOUTH-GOSPORT-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [PORTSMOUTH-GOSPORT] SANDON births??? > Resent-From: ENG-HAM-PORTSMOUTH-GOSPORT-L@rootsweb.com > Resent-Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 07:36:43 -0600 > > Hi Clive > > Just to let you know that no Sandon's in Portsmouth from 1956 to 1960? > > Very strange! > > Hope this helps > > Paul Stacey > > Clive Sandon <csandon@ozemail.com.au> wrote: > Dear Friends > > My Sandon family came from Portsmouth. Is anybody connected to or knows of > these 2 lads??? > > Anthony George Robert Sandon b. Portsmouth 1954 > > Michael John Sandon b. Portsmouth 1957? > > Many thanks > > Clive Sandon > Brisbane, Australia > Researching Sandon, Sly, Bonus, Billing, Bush, Cox, Christian, King families > in England/Australia 1850 to present day. > > > > > > ==== ENG-HAM-PORTSMOUTH-GOSPORT Mailing List ==== > Don't go barking up the wrong tree be like a good chef and ALWAYS check your > SOURCES > > ============================== > Search Family and Local Histories for stories about your family and the > areas they lived. Over 85 million names added in the last 12 months. > Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13966/rd.ashx > > > > --------------------------------- > Yahoo! Messenger NEW - crystal clear PC to PCcalling worldwide with voicemail > > > ==== ENG-HAM-PORTSMOUTH-GOSPORT Mailing List ==== > Visit the knightroots website at www.knightroots.co.uk > > ============================== > Jumpstart your genealogy with OneWorldTree. Search not only for > ancestors, but entire generations. Learn more: > http://www.ancestry.com/s13972/rd.ashx

Hi Jenny: It's been a while since you sent me the data for 1851. Since then, thanks to Gale's Library Week freebie, I was able to download a lot of 1871 and later census images that I am going through, and thought these might be related to what you found: (Context: George GILES as father of Sarah Jemima GILES b. 1830 St. Albans Herts, married William Robert WILLCOCKS St. Mary's Portsea 22 Mar 1858 (second wife.)) In 1881, Portsea, RG11/1146/F126/P21/S109 at 3 Whites Road? George GILES Head Mar 75 Navy Pensioner, Berkshire Newbury Maria Do. Wife Do. 60 Hants, Portsmouth Daniel JOHNSON Br-in-Law 49 " " In 1871, Portsea, RG10/1131/F??/P18/S110 at 28 Whites Row George GILES Head Mar 64 Pensioner (Naval) Berks, Reading Maria Do. Wife Mar 50 Hants Portsmouth Elizabeth WILLIAMS Vstr Unm 18 Domestic Servant Do. Do. Mary CRUPPS Do. Unm 18 (no occ or birthplace given, squished above on same line:) William NORTHOVER Do. Unm 50 Labourer Isle of Wight Susan BURLEY Do. Unm 38 Laundress Do. These seem to be the same family, but ages don't coincide with George 50 and Maria 35 in 1851, though they are 15 years apart. Also George here would be 44/5 in 1851 and 35 in 1841. He is old enough to have had a dau. in 1830, at age 24, though five years younger than the George of 1851 you found. If George was born in Reading/Newbury, and Maria is a Portsmouth native, this would explain his being in Portsea, as would his Navy role. Could he have been a Navy office clerk? This would have to be a second marriage and from her age in 1871 probably was later than 1841 and definitely not Sarah's mother. The children from William's marriage were named Evelina Jemima, Robert George, William Charles and Edward Herbert. Evelina must have been an important family name as Evelina's daughters included Evelina Emma Roach, and Edward's included a Marion Sarah (after mother & grandmother), and Grace Evelina Annie. So I suspect George's first wife was possibly Evelina. Or perhaps his mother. A new piece of evidence turned up today, though, from a descendant of William Robert WILLCOCKS - his marriage cert. It shows as a witness Elizabeth GILES. This would suggest a marriage to an Elizabeth, in around 1828, to account for Sarah's birth in abt. 1830. She was DEFINITELY 28 at marriage to William in 1858! If George is the 64/75 age man he was born in about 1806/7. So an 1828 marriage would be about right. There is one: George GILES m. Elizabeth BLAKE at West Tytherly, Hampshire, on 15 Dec 1828. A George GILES was b. 13 Feb 1807, chr. 15 Feb 1807 at Letcombe Regis, Berks parents Francis and Elizabeth. Elizabeth BLAKE was chr. West Tytherly Hampshire on 12 Jan 1807 parents Augustine and Hannah. A second marriage for George may be: George Giles and Maria Johnson, 16 Oct 1843, St. Thomas Portsmouth, Hampshire She would have been 22 if born in 1821. This name agrees with Daniel JOHNSON as brother-in-law. Could SKS please look this up on the PR, please? Daniel's parents were John and Mary, he was chr. at St. Thomas, but no sign of a Maria in this family! So, in 1841, I would like to see if George, 30 (34), and Elizabeth, 30 (34) are anywhere to be found with a daughter Sarah age 10-11 and possibly other family, of course with no address to go on! He may have had a job in St. Albans, Herts earlier but who knows when he moved to Hampshire? But Elizabeth may have died already if he remarried in 1843. Can anyone find the 1851 census image and/or an 1861 image in Portsea for George and Maria? I have made progress on this line, as the relative I mentioned sent me information that confirmed William Robert as a Workhouse Master in Colchester from 1867, and also have found him in 1861 as a Parish Pay Clerk in Shoreditch (probably a Workhouse staff job?) Regards Martin Willcocks Taylorsville, UT, USA. P.S. re my request for a lookup of William Robert's second marriage, could the witness name be BLAKE rather than LUKE, or was she really GILES? If the latter, possibly a sister of Sarah, since her mother must have died before 1843! Regards Martin Willcocks Taylorsville, UT USA. Jenny Lucy wrote: > Hi Martin, > I had a quick look at the 1851 Index today > There is a George Giles age 50 and a Maria age 35 she was born in > Hants he was not both in same page bundle so possibly living together > Only Sarah J was aged 7 living with Sarah 31 and Ann age5 all born > elsewhere (not Hants) > Also James Giles age 49 not living with another Giles it seems > I do not have access to the addresses - maybe someone can help with > place of birth otherwise can check it out when I get back to library > > This is full detailsGiles Vol 46 > Maria 35 002 71 > Elizabeth 4 001 233 > > Volume 47 (born elsewhere) > Henry 28 555 478 > Ann 5 D03 492 > George 50 555 71 > Sarah 31 T75 492 > Sarah J 7 804 492 > > Volume 47 Born Hampshire > Lydia 69 242 134 > Margaret 1 115 492 > William 3 449 492 > > under Gill (born elsewhere) > George 32 H02 228 > Sarah 24 R29 252 > > Volume 44 > James Giles 49 P06 530 > > Volume 43 Ref HO 107 1657 > Eliza 40 001 246 > Eliza 22 001 246 > Jane 10 001 246 > > Volume 45 under Gile > William 59 002 736 > Ann 36 001 698 > George 3 002 698 > > the index shows name, then age, then number for place of birth, then > bundle page no > eg 71 for George and Maria indicates could be living together or > could be on the same page. > > Hope this helps. Regards Jenny > >> Well, thanks for that insight, John, I guess I hadn't thought of it >> that way! I have several other relatives that were clerks, too. A >> solicitor's clerk, a colliery clerk, a shipowner's clerk, among others. >> >> Was he in the 1851 census, anyone? I'm told that by 1861 he had gone >> from 17 Butcher St., but not where he was then. George GILES, office >> clerk, father of Sarah J. Giles, who would be 20 or 21 in 1851. So >> George might be between 40 and up. >> >> Rita, thanks for the (negative) lookup in 1849. The directories I >> found (on www.historicaldirectories.org) included Slaters 1852 and >> 1853 directories of Hampshire, covering Portsea, and listed both >> George and James GILES. >> >> Regards >> Martin Willcocks >> Taylorsville, UT, USA. >> ======= >> John wrote: >> Why should a directory not mention a mere office clerk? In 1858 he >> would have been in an occupation that formed the basis for the >> emerging lower middle classes. By this stage of the Industrial >> Revolution there were several new regular occupations that had either >> not existed before or had developed from other jobs. For instance the >> role of business manager was now developing as a distinct role as the >> capitalist industrial owners delegated responsibility for the day to >> day running of what were now becoming major concerns - a far cry from >> the smaller cottage industries of 25 to 50 years earlier. The >> position of office clerk was not inconsiderable - whilst it may not >> be that sexy in today's world it was a significant role then. Why? >> This person had to be literate and numerate; in a population that >> still had a high rate of illiteracy. He was a trusted person since >> his role would have exposed him to confidential information and >> possibly cash transactions. His status was therefore above the >> 'blue-collar' worker and a 'respectable' person albeit probably >> working for very little money. Charles Dickens' Bob Cratchit is a >> splendid example of the type of job we are discussing here. >> >> >> ==== ENG-HAM-PORTSMOUTH-GOSPORT Mailing List ==== >> Spring clean your tree and see if you can dust off some new rellies >

----- Original Message ----- From: <Knightroots@aol.com> > Not yet Jon - only published as a book or on fiche. Cheers Linda & Tony, have gone to their site and contacted them to see if there are any plans for such or if they know of an organization that is in the process of doing it. It's great having offers of help from sighted people, invaluable in fact, but there's nothing quite like having the info yourself to be able to check through at your own leisure. It definitely gives someone like myself a feeling of greater independence in continuing their family history research. Woopse, better put this soap box away ... although it isn't meant in that manner. Thanks again, take care, Jon -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.9/39 - Release Date: 7/4/05

Hi Linda & Tony: I have just received from a newly found cousin a copy of the marriage cert of William Robert Willcocks and Sarah Giles at St. Mary's Portsea on 22 Mar 1858. I know you looked this up for me over a year ago, but seem to have lost the email. There are some differences between the marriage cert., which appears to have been a transcription of the marriage register entry and is therefore suspect (as all the writing is in the same hand!), and what I had learned last year: 1. Witnesses are shown as Elizabeth Giles and Wm. Willcocks - I believe I had Elizabeth Luke and ? Willcocks previously. The simplest answer here is probably to request a fresh lookup of the parish record for this marriage, and also, while I'm at it, his first marriage to Elizabeth Chalkley on 7 Sep 1845 at St. Mary's Portsea. Hope this is not too much trouble, Regards Martin Willcocks Taylorsville, UT

Hi Linda & Tony, I can certainly let them know - do you happen to know who I should contact about it? Thank you, Kathryn > >Kathryn if you notify the HGS they can correct this on the next update. >Hope this helps,Linda and Tony > > > >The 1851 HGS index may not be complete though as I recently found a family >of mine in Titchfield on film at the Portsmouth record office that was >completely missed off this index. > >Best wishes, > >Kathryn in a wet and grey Dartmoor -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.289 / Virus Database: 267.8.7 - Release Date: 29/06/05

----- Original Message ----- From: <Knightroots@aol.com> Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 1:08 PM Subject: [PORTSMOUTH-GOSPORT] ] 1851 Index Query > Hi Jon > not sure if this helps but the HGS does an index for the 1851? > Linda and Tony Hi both, yes I was aware that an index was produced by HGS, but my query was whether a transcript has been made of it. In other words, a text version rather than scanned images etc, that a blind person such as myself can access with a text reader. Thanks for your reply, best wishes, Jon -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.9/39 - Release Date: 7/4/05

Hi, The 1851 HGS index may not be complete though as I recently found a family of mine in Titchfield on film at the Portsmouth record office that was completely missed off this index. Best wishes, Kathryn in a wet and grey Dartmoor >Hi Jon >not sure if this helps but the HGS does an index for the 1851? >Linda and Tony -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.289 / Virus Database: 267.8.7 - Release Date: 29/06/05

Hi listers, does anyone know if the 1851 index for Gosport, Fareham, Portsmouth etc has been made available as a transcription? any help on this would be gratefully recieved, cheers, Jon -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.9/39 - Release Date: 7/4/05

I went to the Festival Of The Sea this Sunday just gone,I was lucky enough to get two free tickets as my Mum was one of the street entertainers, my two daughters and I had a fantastic day.We qeued up for over an hour to go on the Victory, my daughter's first time, my sixth but still just as awe inspiring. We were given a leaflet about the Victory which says it was the sixth ship to be called HMS Victory and was launched on 7 May 1765.It has been in Portsmouth since 12 Jan 1922 and opened to the public in 1928, having 33 million visitors since!! Sharon -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.9/39 - Release Date: 04/07/2005

Hi Just a piece from Family Tree Magazine of Aug. 2004, pg. 33~ A quote from Susan Lumas's book "Making Use of the Census" 2002: .... in the week preceding census night, the appointed enumerator delivered schedules to all the households in the area to which he had been assigned...everyone who slept in the house on census night was to be included, even if it was not their permanent home. the instructions to the enumerator were that no person present on that night was to be omitted, and no person absent included. If individuals were working that night, or were travelling, they would be enumerated in their shift, or where they were to stay at the next stop on their journey. On the Monday after the census night the enumerator returned to collection the completed schedules. If they had not been filled in the enumerator had to do so by asking the householder for the information... Cheers, Edna - Ottawa

Some of you may have ancestors buried at Gibralter - Malta. http://website.lineone.net/~stephaniebidmead/trafalgar.htm I'm seeking the parentage of Thomas WORTH (1783-1810) who died at Cadiz. Edna - Ottawa

Hi, Ken and I visited the Victory, Mary Rose and Warrior last May 24, 2004 and thoroughly enjoyed it, and no crowds either. Will come back for sure. Edna - Ottawa ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sharon Davage" <sm.davage@ntlworld.com> To: <ENG-HAM-PORTSMOUTH-GOSPORT-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 7:40 AM Subject: Re: [PORTSMOUTH-GOSPORT] HMS Victory I went to the Festival Of The Sea this Sunday just gone,I was lucky enough to get two free tickets as my Mum was one of the street entertainers, my two daughters and I had a fantastic day.We qeued up for over an hour to go on the Victory, my daughter's first time, my sixth but still just as awe inspiring. We were given a leaflet about the Victory which says it was the sixth ship to be called HMS Victory and was launched on 7 May 1765.It has been in Portsmouth since 12 Jan 1922 and opened to the public in 1928, having 33 million visitors since!! Sharon -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.9/39 - Release Date: 04/07/2005 ==== ENG-HAM-PORTSMOUTH-GOSPORT Mailing List ==== Granny SMITHs aren't just the name of an apple they are in many a family tree too ============================== View and search Historical Newspapers. Read about your ancestors, find marriage announcements and more. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13969/rd.ashx

Not yet Jon - only published as a book or on fiche. See _http://www.hgs-online.org.uk/hgs_pub_1851.htm_ (http://www.hgs-online.org.uk/hgs_pub_1851.htm) for coverage details. There are no current plans to publish to cd as the Society is concentrating on the baptism index at present. Regards Linda & Tony

Kathryn if you notify the HGS they can correct this on the next update. Hope this helps,Linda and Tony The 1851 HGS index may not be complete though as I recently found a family of mine in Titchfield on film at the Portsmouth record office that was completely missed off this index. Best wishes, Kathryn in a wet and grey Dartmoor

Hi Jon not sure if this helps but the HGS does an index for the 1851? Linda and Tony

Hi David The bible for this sort of thing is usually Shore Establishments of the Royal Navy by Lt Cdr B Warlow which unfortunately does not define the differences for the periods in question, but I would have thought that Victory I would imply that he was either serving in the RN Barracks, or was attached to or attending one of the associated training establishments which were administered by HMS Victory (Barracks as opposed to ship after 1903), at least for pay, feeding, documentation and administration. If there were no ship's names after Victory III its difficult to guess. The different Victory names normally only give an indication of which pay office and supply officer (paymaster in those days) was looking after their affairs. To give you an idea of how it worked - there were 4 separate pay office in Victory Barracks when I served there in 1957 - one looking after the ship's company who worked in the Barracks - another looked after reservists under training ; out stations attached to Victory such as the people working on the various ranges in the Portsmouth area and the physical training staff at Pitt St Swimming Pool, and numerous other outposts in the Portsmouth area including the Harbour Master's and CinC's Staff in the Dockyard and another smaller office which handled documentation for personnel leaving the service, - and Victory IV which looked after the ships in commission in the Portsmouth area, but which were too small to carry their own accounts, such as the Portsmouth Squadron, and ships carrying out major refits in Portsmouth Dockyard with much reduced ships' companies. As the numbers in the service fell I understand that all these offices were combined circa 1961. During your period of interest HMS Victory also looked after the affairs of those serving down here at Portland until about 1915. Apologies for a somewhat inexact answer. Regards Paul On Mon, 4 Jul 2005 19:01:15 -0400, "DAVID PARKER" <parker3250@rogers.com> wrote: > The naval service record of one of mine shows that he served on HMS VICTORY lll in 1899 and HMS VICTORY l in 1907,1908, 1918 and 1922. Does anyone know the difference? > >David > > >==== ENG-HAM-PORTSMOUTH-GOSPORT Mailing List ==== >Visit the knightroots website at www.knightroots.co.uk for newbies info,photos of local areas & for free look ups on the PRs we have at home. > >============================== >Search Family and Local Histories for stories about your family and the >areas they lived. Over 85 million names added in the last 12 months. >Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13966/rd.ashx 50.33.50N 02.26.70W http://www.pbenyon.plus.com/Naval.html

Philip Regret I can add nothing for 1859 at the present time - although I'm sure the almost daily Naval and Military Intelligence section of the Times for that year should give you a good idea as to what she was doing - The Times is available on Microfiche at a lot of good reference libraries in the UK - and you can also find it on-line from time to time during National Library Week etc. You can also find a few details in respect of the vessel on my web site at : http://www.pbenyon.plus.com/18-1900/T/04876.html I have a feeling that those who served on board in Chinese waters in 1856 may have been eligible for a medal in addition to the Grant awarded by parliament. I've seen the initials PPL before, but have yet to work out what they mean. Regards Paul On Mon, 4 Jul 2005 08:19:23 EDT, EWRAYSURE@aol.com wrote: >Have just returned from a trip to the PRO where I found >my great, great grandfather's details in the muster book for >HMS Asia which was a barracks hulk in Portsmouth Harbour. > >Does anyone have any comments about the following, please: > > Previous ship - Tribune. Any details known? Was this also a hulk? > Under the column, "Whither.." this is recorded - "Shore P P L". What > does this mean? > For three years he received a wage for the "Tuition of Young Gentlemen". > Does this refer to all trainee seamen or priviledged young people >only. > (I remember Hornblower's special treatment of "young gentlemen" whose > backs Bush wanted to scratch.) > >Incidentally, his wage was 1/7d a day in 1859! > >Thanks in anticipation > >Philip > > >==== ENG-HAM-PORTSMOUTH-GOSPORT Mailing List ==== >Visit the knightroots website at www.knightroots.co.uk for newbies info,photos of local areas & for free look ups on the PRs we have at home. > >============================== >Search Family and Local Histories for stories about your family and the >areas they lived. Over 85 million names added in the last 12 months. >Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13966/rd.ashx 50.33.50N 02.26.70W http://www.pbenyon.plus.com/Naval.html

Hi -- there were several ships with that name -- you could contact TheShips-L or Mariners-L for further details David. Edna - Ottawa ----- Original Message ----- From: "DAVID PARKER" <parker3250@rogers.com> To: <ENG-HAM-PORTSMOUTH-GOSPORT-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, July 04, 2005 7:01 PM Subject: [PORTSMOUTH-GOSPORT] HMS Victory The naval service record of one of mine shows that he served on HMS VICTORY lll in 1899 and HMS VICTORY l in 1907,1908, 1918 and 1922. Does anyone know the difference? David ==== ENG-HAM-PORTSMOUTH-GOSPORT Mailing List ==== Visit the knightroots website at www.knightroots.co.uk for newbies info,photos of local areas & for free look ups on the PRs we have at home. ============================== Search Family and Local Histories for stories about your family and the areas they lived. Over 85 million names added in the last 12 months. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13966/rd.ashx

Dear Friends My Sandon family came from Portsmouth. Is anybody connected to or knows of these 2 lads??? Anthony George Robert Sandon b. Portsmouth 1954 Michael John Sandon b. Portsmouth 1957? Many thanks Clive Sandon Brisbane, Australia Researching Sandon, Sly, Bonus, Billing, Bush, Cox, Christian, King families in England/Australia 1850 to present day.

There is an I.B.G. Sandon listed in the phone book for the Portsmouth area living in East Lavant, Chichester. Maybe they moved to there.A lot of babies were born in ST.Marys hospital in Portsmouth whose Mother's came from the outskirts e.g Havant,Leigh Park etc, their births would all be registered in Portsmouth. Sharon -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.8/37 - Release Date: 01/07/2005