Hi Tony and Linda, A while ago you sent me the baptism details of Harry George Richard ALBRAY at Christchurch Gosport on April 9, 1909. Could you possibly check the exact same date for the baptism of Grace Ellen RUSSELL please? The children had the same mother but different fathers due to Caroline ALBRAY being widowed and her remarrying. Thanks in advance, Jon -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.7/60 - Release Date: 7/28/05

The HGS have put some data on line at the FFHS pay site at: _http://www.familyhistoryonline.co.uk/_ (http://www.familyhistoryonline.co.uk/) Unfortunately, the Charity Commission Rules prohibit differential pricing between members and non members. Tony Knight HGS Publicity Officer

I am new to the list and still a novice researcher. I have hit a number of walls with my Johnson research and would appreciate a little guidance. It appears the family lived in the Hampshire/West Sussex areas. William JOHNSON b. Abt 1811 in West Dean & d. 25 Dec 1889 in Aldingbourne, buried Emsworth m - Harriet TRIM - (IGI)14 Oct 1833 in West Stoke - bapt. (IGI) 28 May 1815 in West Stoke, d/o Charles Trim & Harriet Rawlins (not confirmed) & d. 14 Feb 1898 at Portsmouth - Informant: William Young, son in law of 110 Malino Road, Lanaport. Possible of William Johnson and Harriet Trim ....... I believe there were 13 *William Henry JOHNSON - bapt. 8 Mar 1834 at West Stoke (IGI) *Ellen JOHNSON - bapt.30 Dec 1838 at Funtingham (IGI) *Mary Ann JOHNSON - bapt. 8 Jul 1839 at Walberton (IGI) *Alfred JOHNSON - bapt. 15 May 1842 at Rumboldswyke (IGI) & d. abt.1891 *Charles Trim JOHNSON - bapt. 30 Mar 1845 at Rumboldswyke, (IGI) & d. 1930 Baptist minister at Littlehampton - 1864, Alford, Peterborough, Coalville - 1872, Long Eaton - 1877, Longton - 1879 Falmouth -1888, Romsey - 1896, Dartford - 1898, Shepshed - 1904. m. Annie Elizabeth JAMES 1861at Havant Children Elizabeth L. JOHNSON b. 1871 at Peterborough, Northampton Charles P. JOHNSON b. 1872 at Peterborough, Northampton Hephzibah JOHNSON b. 1874 at Coalville, Leicester Joseph C. T. JOHNSON b. 1876 at Coalville, Leicester Miriam S. JOHNSON b. 1883 at Longton, Staffordshire *Eliza JOHNSON b. abt.1848 at Washington, Hampshire (1861 census) *Fanny JOHNSON b. abt. 1850 at Washington, Hampshire (1861 census) *Albert "Elijah" JOHNSON b. 20 Mar 1853 in Westergate, Sussex & d. 11Jul 1907 in Stevington, Bedford. Educated at Arundel High School Baptist minister in Sutton-in-Ashfield -1878, Hanley - 1879, Swansea - 1880, Westbury - 1887, Ibstock - 1895, Croydon - 1906 & Stevington - 1907. Plus Whitwick, Horncastle Married on 6 Apr 1876 at Weslyan Chapel, Horncastle, to Priscilla SHERIFF daughter of Elijah SHERIFF & Elizabeth SANDALL. Children Albert Elijah JOHNSON - b. 18 Jul 1878 Sutton-in-Ashfield, Notts & d. 1895 in Penknap, Westbury bur. Ibstock George "Sheriff" JOHNSON - b. 4 May 1880 & d. 6 Jun 1965 in Hertfordshire (Baptist Minister) m. Julia ROBINSON Ernest Elisha JOHNSON - b. 5 Jun 1882 & d. 7 Mar 1944 in Boscombe (Baptist Minister) m. Winifred NORRIS Priscilla Harriet JOHNSON - b. 30 Mar 1884 m. Reginald CAMERON Benjamin Charles Trim JOHNSON - b. 24 Nov 1885 m. Ethel HEATH (Emmigrated to New Zealand via South Africa) Joshua Ambrose JOHNSON - b. 5 Apr 1887 m. Grace or Annie Munro (Emmigrated to New Zealand) William Penknap JOHNSON - b. 7 Apr 1889 in Westbury & d. 14 Jul 1889 in Westbury Lottie Lydia JOHNSON - b. 1 Jul 1891 m. Walter WINFIELD Stephen JOHNSON - b. 9 Aug 1894 m. Christine SILVEY (Emmigrated to New Zealand) Samuel Joseph JOHNSON - b. 1 Mar 1896 m. Helen MOON (Emmigrated to New Zealand) Dorothy Dorcas JOHNSON - b. 13 May 1898 (Emmigrated to New Zealand) *Harry JOHNSON b. abt 1857 at Washington, Hampshire (1861 Census) Many thanks Ann Johnson New Zealand

Thank you Tony, Hampshire Genealogical Society: www.hgs-online.org.uk A good site for sure ~~~ Edna - Ottawa HGS Member 11312

Hello all for those of you who do and don't have the HGS 1851 name index you might like to know that the 1851 census is now available too! The census that has just come out is by street and area only at S & N so the name index avilable from the HGS would compliment it. Hope this helps,Linda and Tony

I am researching William STANTON, Staff Captain whose family have married into the BUCKELL's originally from the Isle of Wight but resident in Portsmouth from about 1850 when William was a Master Draper of Wish Street. Anyone else with these names in their tree? Mike Waterlooville

Hi, Kate Crook (b. 1850) married George Ross, Blacksmith 3rd Qtr 1875 2b 871 Fareham. Could it be at the Independent Chapel at Fareham? Does anyone have access to these Registers. With thanks, Edna - Ottawa

Although Mr Bolding does not appear on it, there is a separate GRO index for marine deaths (GRO MARINE DEATHS INDICES 1846 to 1902) These are viewable FREE at 1837online as well as at the Family Record Centre and TNA Kew. Linda & Tony

Hello Jean I've checked the Times Digital Archive and it gives the names of some of the officers, so you might be able to find their details and through that, your great grandfather's. If you haven't seen them, the reports are extensive, including the court martial reports. David Blake Paul Benyon <pbenyon@pbenyon.plus.com> wrote: Hi Jean IIRC the routine according to KR & AI for 1913 was that RN personnel should be reported on in precisely the same way as the civilian population, with ship's offices and padres having their own forms etc. but I don't know if the rules were the same in 1893. I say this as I have a feeling that they changed in 1914/5, with start of the Great War. I should also perhaps add that this does not apply to the Merchant Navy who have their own rules and regulations The other problem in a case like this, ie when the ship itself is lost, presumably along with all the records etc., the rules aren't, as far as I can see, specific, as to who should do the reporting. One wonders if the creation of the death certificate, at such a distance, and with those who survived, being picked up by or transferred to a number of different vessels, may have been forgotten ? Another thing that occurs to me, in a case like this, in the absence of original records, is that if a death certificate was created, the spelling of the name may well have got corrupted along the line. This was at a time of some change in the administration of the RN, and RM afloat, with pay and muster lists having disappeared some 10-15 years previously and new bodies and routines being created around this period to replace what was lost in the changes. If a death certificate was raised I wouldn't have thought that it would appear in the Register until some months later, or maybe as an addition, ie at the bottom of the page, where it should have appeared ? If I were you, I should be inclined to try to find the names of a couple of others who lost their lives in the same incident eg the Admiral, IIRC, who ordered the turn which brought the vessels on to a collision course, and maybe a couple of others - as you obviously know there are a number of web sites out there which cover this incident, which might mention names - or alternatively I expect the Times and other papers of the day probably gave it wide coverage ? Regards Paul On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 09:58:29 EDT, Jeanjane45@aol.com wrote: >Can anyone help with this please: > >Thomas Bolding [RMLI] my G.Grandfather, last shore base was Eastney >Barracks, drowned in 1893 when two ships, the Camperdown and Victoria collided off >Tripoli whilst on manoeuvres, there was a great loss of life in the accident. > >>From his service record I have the exact date of death, but cannot find a >death certificate. >Does anyone know what the procedure was for multiple deaths such as this, >were death certificate not issued? > >Would appreciate any help, > >thanks >Jean > > > >==== ENG-HAM-PORTSMOUTH-GOSPORT Mailing List ==== >Visit the knightroots website at www.knightroots.co.uk > >============================== >Search Family and Local Histories for stories about your family and the >areas they lived. Over 85 million names added in the last 12 months. >Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13966/rd.ashx 50.33.50N 02.26.70W http://www.pbenyon.plus.com/Naval.html ==== ENG-HAM-PORTSMOUTH-GOSPORT Mailing List ==== Are they called brickwalls because there is always MORTAR find? ============================== Search Family and Local Histories for stories about your family and the areas they lived. Over 85 million names added in the last 12 months. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13966/rd.ashx --------------------------------- Yahoo! Messenger NEW - crystal clear PC to PCcalling worldwide with voicemail

Hi Jean IIRC the routine according to KR & AI for 1913 was that RN personnel should be reported on in precisely the same way as the civilian population, with ship's offices and padres having their own forms etc. but I don't know if the rules were the same in 1893. I say this as I have a feeling that they changed in 1914/5, with start of the Great War. I should also perhaps add that this does not apply to the Merchant Navy who have their own rules and regulations The other problem in a case like this, ie when the ship itself is lost, presumably along with all the records etc., the rules aren't, as far as I can see, specific, as to who should do the reporting. One wonders if the creation of the death certificate, at such a distance, and with those who survived, being picked up by or transferred to a number of different vessels, may have been forgotten ? Another thing that occurs to me, in a case like this, in the absence of original records, is that if a death certificate was created, the spelling of the name may well have got corrupted along the line. This was at a time of some change in the administration of the RN, and RM afloat, with pay and muster lists having disappeared some 10-15 years previously and new bodies and routines being created around this period to replace what was lost in the changes. If a death certificate was raised I wouldn't have thought that it would appear in the Register until some months later, or maybe as an addition, ie at the bottom of the page, where it should have appeared ? If I were you, I should be inclined to try to find the names of a couple of others who lost their lives in the same incident eg the Admiral, IIRC, who ordered the turn which brought the vessels on to a collision course, and maybe a couple of others - as you obviously know there are a number of web sites out there which cover this incident, which might mention names - or alternatively I expect the Times and other papers of the day probably gave it wide coverage ? Regards Paul On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 09:58:29 EDT, Jeanjane45@aol.com wrote: >Can anyone help with this please: > >Thomas Bolding [RMLI] my G.Grandfather, last shore base was Eastney >Barracks, drowned in 1893 when two ships, the Camperdown and Victoria collided off >Tripoli whilst on manoeuvres, there was a great loss of life in the accident. > >>From his service record I have the exact date of death, but cannot find a >death certificate. >Does anyone know what the procedure was for multiple deaths such as this, >were death certificate not issued? > >Would appreciate any help, > >thanks >Jean > > > >==== ENG-HAM-PORTSMOUTH-GOSPORT Mailing List ==== >Visit the knightroots website at www.knightroots.co.uk > >============================== >Search Family and Local Histories for stories about your family and the >areas they lived. Over 85 million names added in the last 12 months. >Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13966/rd.ashx 50.33.50N 02.26.70W http://www.pbenyon.plus.com/Naval.html

Hi Cedric, Thanks for your suggestion regarding William I have asked the certificate system if I can qualify the cert. detail as I know William's father was also William. The cost otherwise is £35. Best wishes, Mike. -----Original Message----- From: cedricdedric [mailto:cedricdedric@btinternet.com] Sent: 27 July 2005 19:19 To: ENG-HAM-PORTSMOUTH-GOSPORT-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PORTSMOUTH-GOSPORT] Brick wall or even stone wall Sal, >My paternal g > grandfather was William Harnett a mariner. He married twice, second marriage > was in 1858 to Susannah Scouler in Deptford. The name of his first wife is a > mystery as is the date or place of their marriage. Try one of these: Marriages Mar 1839 HARNETT William Alderbury 8 323 Marriages Jun 1840 HARNETT William Blean 5 41 Marriages Sep 1844 HARNETT William Henry Falmouth 9 109 Marriages Mar 1852 Harnett William Kensington 1a 70 Marriages Mar 1855 HARNETT William Williton 5c 493 HARNETT William Lambeth 1d 356 Regards, Cedric ==== ENG-HAM-PORTSMOUTH-GOSPORT Mailing List ==== Granny SMITHs aren't just the name of an apple they are in many a family tree too ============================== Search Family and Local Histories for stories about your family and the areas they lived. Over 85 million names added in the last 12 months. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13966/rd.ashx -- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.9.2/53 - Release Date: 20/07/2005 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.9.6/59 - Release Date: 27/07/2005

Hi Mike Thanks for your suggestions I am working on them, Best wishes, Mike (good name Mike) pity the Harnett causes so many mis-spellings !! -----Original Message----- From: Hillmoore@aol.com [mailto:Hillmoore@aol.com] Sent: 27 July 2005 18:09 To: ENG-HAM-PORTSMOUTH-GOSPORT-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PORTSMOUTH-GOSPORT] Brick wall or even stone wall Go to the National Archives website. Put William Harnett in the search box and ADM in the third box. This will reveal 5 William Harnett's who served in the RN at various times. Their dates of birth are about:- 1793, 1807, 1801,1786,1833 so your man might be sailor number 2. Try Ireland as a possible birthplace. In the long peace which followed the defeat of Napoleon he served in the RN from 1828 to 1842. He may well have gone on to serve in the merchant fleet. Two marriages? You know what sailors are! Mike Waterlooville ==== ENG-HAM-PORTSMOUTH-GOSPORT Mailing List ==== Visit the knightroots website at www.knightroots.co.uk ============================== New! Family Tree Maker 2005. Build your tree and search for your ancestors at the same time. Share your tree with family and friends. Learn more: http://landing.ancestry.com/familytreemaker/2005/tour.aspx?sourceid=14599&ta rgetid=5429 -- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.9.2/53 - Release Date: 20/07/2005 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.9.6/59 - Release Date: 27/07/2005

Hi Both, I have tried every possible combination of spellings and wildcards but I suspect that William may have been a Greenwich Pensioner in 1861 as he is an "in" pensioner at the birth of a child in 1862. I have searched the census for him in the Greenwich Hospital but failed to find him. I have found his wife Susannah at an address nearby but not with William. I do not have access to 1841 or 1851 censuses but other listers have looked on my behalf. Thanks for your help, any suggestion is welcome, The spellings and mis-spellings of my Surname make any search a lengthy process and helpers may have been unwilling to spend time doing lengthy searches. Best, Mike. -----Original Message----- From: Knightroots@aol.com [mailto:Knightroots@aol.com] Sent: 27 July 2005 17:56 To: ENG-HAM-PORTSMOUTH-GOSPORT-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [PORTSMOUTH-GOSPORT] HARNETT Brick wall or even stone wall Hello Mike if yo have the 1861 census or before it is possible to put in a ** instead of tt . Not sure if you have tried that or an alternative? This could be your answer using a wildcard. Hope so but let us know and will scratch our head for another idea/s in the meantime. Linda and Tony Hi All, I have more brick walls than Hadrian or even China. My paternal g grandfather was William Harnett a mariner. He married twice, second marriage was in 1858 to Susannah Scouler in Deptford. The name of his first wife is a mystery as is the date or place of their marriage. I can not find William's birthplace either although he appears to have been born about 1807-9 ( this from death cert). He died in 1870 thus before the 1871 census, He does not appear on either 1861 1851 or 1841 censuses to the best of my knowledge. If anyone has any suggestion as to a way forward I would love to hear from you. I realise that this is not a Hampshire family but having said that there are Harnetts in Hampshire and who knows. Best wishes to all, Mike. ==== ENG-HAM-PORTSMOUTH-GOSPORT Mailing List ==== Treat others as you wish to be treated yourselves, with respect Visit the knightroots website at www.knightroots.co.uk ============================== Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx -- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.9.2/53 - Release Date: 20/07/2005 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.9.6/59 - Release Date: 27/07/2005

Hey, you learn something new every day, so they say. I certainly have today, what with Widows and Dressmakers not being what they seem :) Thanks also David, for the link to the sinking of the Victoria Thanks everyone for your help. Jean

This was one of the Royal Navy's greatest blunders (Guinness Book of Naval Blunders 1993 ISBN 0-85112-713-4) which took place on 22 June 1893 when the Victoria was rammed and sunk by Camperdown. He formed the fleet into two columns 6 cables apart and then ordered them to turn inwards with fatal consequences. With such a well documented disaster who needs a death certificate? Mike Waterlooville where it has turned very warm and sunny and will stay so for the Wardroom Summer Ball at HMS Nelson tommorrow night!

Jean, Some of deaths at sea were registered officially and therefore can be found in the index of civil registration records, where you appear to have had no luck. However the records at The National Archives not only replicate those but also add additional names, so a search thee may help. Now, I appreciate of course that this does not apply in your case but did you know that an entry "Widow. Husband lost at sea" was at times an euphemism for an unmarried mother in a census, and "dressmaker" was sometimes an euphemism for a "sex trade worker" David ----- Original Message ----- From: <Jeanjane45@aol.com> To: <ENG-HAM-PORTSMOUTH-GOSPORT-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 1:10 PM Subject: Re: [PORTSMOUTH-GOSPORT] Drowned at sea - Death Certificate > > Hi Paul > > Thanks for your prompt reply to my query. > > I have been trying, without much success, for a number of years to > solve the problem of the whereabouts of a death certificate for my GGF. > You are correct in assuming that the records of the ship were lost in the > sinking. The last entry on his service record reads: > > "Died 22.6.1893. No record. Documents lost with ship". > > I have searched the indexes, for a death, three years beyond the date of the > sinking and cannot find any trace, so it could be that no certificates would > have > been created and the last words on his service record is the only official > document that I will have. > > I will, as suggested, have a look at the papers, to see if they might turn > up some information. > > Many thanks again > Jean in wet, cold, Cumbria. > > > > ==== ENG-HAM-PORTSMOUTH-GOSPORT Mailing List ==== > practice safe text - tell the Listowners about virus worries - DON'T > SPREAD IT ON THE LIST! > > ============================== > Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the > last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx >

Hi Paul Thanks for your prompt reply to my query. I have been trying, without much success, for a number of years to solve the problem of the whereabouts of a death certificate for my GGF. You are correct in assuming that the records of the ship were lost in the sinking. The last entry on his service record reads: "Died 22.6.1893. No record. Documents lost with ship". I have searched the indexes, for a death, three years beyond the date of the sinking and cannot find any trace, so it could be that no certificates would have been created and the last words on his service record is the only official document that I will have. I will, as suggested, have a look at the papers, to see if they might turn up some information. Many thanks again Jean in wet, cold, Cumbria.

Taken from another list.... Edna - Ottawa >>>> Each year, to raise money for charity, Torrington Cavaliers (Devon) create a tableau to burn on 5th November: it started as a simple but enormous bonfire, and has developed into an `event ` of county-wide interest. " Having spent more than a year building a 100ft long replica of Nelson`s flagship , a group of fundraisers are going to achieve what the French fleet and Old Father Time failed to do, by destroying HMS Victory. The Torrington Cavaliers , a volunteer group with a long history of spectacular bonfires, will set light to their intricate reproduction of the three deck battleship on a field in North Devon next month marking the 200th anniversary of the battle of Trafalgar. The replica comes complete with anchors , cabins, lifeboats, and a broadside of 24 guns will be fired before the ship is burned on 27th Aug in front of thousands of spectators . ...the Cavaliers who celebrate their 35th anniversary this year , constructed a huge replica of the Houses of Parliament and invited a descendant of Guy Fawkes to put the torch to it .......in 2000, they built a full size replica of part of the London of 1666 and recreated the Great Fire of London by burning it down in front of 20,000 spectators . " As everyone will remember the battle of Torrington was one of the last battle, if not the last battle of the Civil war in the south west , hence the Torrington Cavaliers . The spectacular will take place on the common at Torrington , and I can scan in a picture of the replica to anyone interested . Or they can see it at www.telegraph.co.uk/pictures

Can anyone help with this please: Thomas Bolding [RMLI] my G.Grandfather, last shore base was Eastney Barracks, drowned in 1893 when two ships, the Camperdown and Victoria collided off Tripoli whilst on manoeuvres, there was a great loss of life in the accident. From his service record I have the exact date of death, but cannot find a death certificate. Does anyone know what the procedure was for multiple deaths such as this, were death certificate not issued? Would appreciate any help, thanks Jean

Does anyone have an interest in the families noted above in the nineteenth century, please Philip