----- Original Message ----- From: Sue Brown To: ENG-HAM-PORTSMOUTH-GOSPORT-L@rootsweb.com Sent: Sunday, July 17, 2005 8:37 PM Subject: Look up please 1861 Census Hi all back on list after a long break ,I would be glad of some help with the above,re James Silvester who is residing at the Fountain Tavern North End,can anyone tell me does it give just Hampshire as his birthplace or does it give more? Best wishes to all Sue Brown in Sunny Sheffield

Hi Sue Welcome back to the list!! The James you want is 52, landlord of The Fountain Inn, North End BORN Southwick Linda & Tony

Val They'd be in the parish registers. The archivist at Portsmouth City Record Office has done a lot of work on the North Hayling parish records, which are exceptionally strong. She may be able to advise on any problems you encounter. David Blake valerie petrie <valeriepetrie@yahoo.co.uk> wrote: Hi Does anyone know where the records of illegimate births would be for North Haying (1849)? Thanks Val --------------------------------- Yahoo! Messenger NEW - crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail ==== ENG-HAM-PORTSMOUTH-GOSPORT Mailing List ==== Spring clean your tree and see if you can dust off some new rellies ============================== Census images 1901, 1891, 1881 and 1871, plus so much more. Ancestry.com's United Kingdom & Ireland Collection. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13968/rd.ashx --------------------------------- To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre.

Hi again tony and Linda On the IGI is the marriage of Henry aubery Veck and Dorothy Bothomley (Bothornley?) on June 1, 1837 at Saint Mary's, Portsea. Another lister found a record of the same marriage which stated Henry was of alverstoke and Dorothy of Kingston. It also stated they were both 21, however they were both born in the 1780's, so I presume the 21 simply refers to them being of full age? do you have the full parish details please? I'm very keen to see who the witnesses were. Many thanks, Jon -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.5/68 - Release Date: 8/10/05

test ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Blake" <dsblake2004@yahoo.co.uk> To: <ENG-HAM-PORTSMOUTH-GOSPORT-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2005 11:38 AM Subject: Re: [PORTSMOUTH-GOSPORT] illegitimacy and history >A little outside Hampshire, I know, but there's a fascinating booklet from >the Westbourne Local History Group called 'The bastards of Westbourne'. >The records for that village are very full and I'm hoping to delve into >them. > > One of my ancestors, George Bettesworth, moved from Westbourne to Hayling > in 1819 when he married Mary Anne Terrey. For some years he was paying > money to the North Hayling overseers, but I haven't been able to find out > why. Maybe the bastardy records for Westbourne will tell me. > > David Blake > > Knightroots@aol.com wrote: > > Ancestry Daily News > 8/9/2005 - _Archive_ > (http://www.ancestry.com/learn/library/category.aspx?category=&type=1&page=1&bydate=1) > â?¢ _Ancestry Daily News, 9 August 2005_ > (http://www.ancestry.com/learn/library/article.aspx?article=10306) â?¢ > Illegitimacy in England and Wales > ____________________________________ > Illegitimacy in England and Wales > â?" Sherry Irvine, CGRS, FSA (Scot) > Somewhere among our English or Welsh ancestors most of us find at least > one > instance of illegitimacy, either in the direct line or among close > collateral > relations. > There are a few generally known facts about the topic. Bastard children > suffered because their parents did not conform to what was considered > moral > behavior, local authorities would do their best to avoid costs, and > records exist > relating to identifying fathers and obtaining support payments. Some of us > have used these records, either those generated locally and found among > the > collective collections known as records of the parish chest, or those from > the > court of quarter sessions. > Not many see the need to understand the intricacies of the law, but the > legal background is interesting and could be useful to a search. There is > certainly good evidence of this in a recent book, My Ancestor Was a > Bastard, by > Ruth Paley and published by the Society of Genealogists, (2004). > Complexities of the Law > Church courts were involved in illegitimacy as far back as the 1500s and > beyond. Care of children had a moral side to it and it was the duty of > parents > to look after offspring born in and out of wedlock. This role was affected > by > legislation in 1576 that gave justices of the peace the authority to deal > with paternity and maintenance cases. In other words, up until the middle > of the > 1800s there were two types of law that could apply, church law and common > law. They did not always agree on whether or not a child was illegitimate. > That is not the only complex aspect; inheritance matters could be > difficult, > and potentially a (http://www.ancestry.com/s19285/t6177/rd.ashx) > genealogical gold mine. In her book, My Ancestor Was a Bastard, Paley sets > this out in > a clear and interesting manner, highlighting legal absurdities along the > way. Differences arose depending on how the law was applied and because > legal > systems around the British Isles were not all the same. > What is known as common law applied in England and Ireland, but courts in > the two regions acted independently and could interpret the law in > different > ways. Scotland's legal system was based on Roman law, a factor that > contributed > to similar types of cases producing dissimilar outcomes. > Inheritance issues were also influenced by the view in common law that an > illegitimate child was no one's child and legally had no relatives. > Provisions > had to be made in a will for illegitimate children to receive anything > from > the estate of a parent. This was an issue for Catholics because their > marriage > was not always recognized as a legal union. > > > > ==== ENG-HAM-PORTSMOUTH-GOSPORT Mailing List ==== > Spring clean your tree and see if you can dust off some new rellies > > ============================== > New! Family Tree Maker 2005. Build your tree and search for your ancestors > at the same time. Share your tree with family and friends. Learn more: > http://landing.ancestry.com/familytreemaker/2005/tour.aspx?sourceid=14599&targetid=5429 > > > > --------------------------------- > To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new > Yahoo! Security Centre. > > > ==== ENG-HAM-PORTSMOUTH-GOSPORT Mailing List ==== > Granny SMITHs aren't just the name of an apple they are in many a family > tree too > > ============================== > Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the > last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: > http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx > > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.2/65 - Release Date: 07/08/2005 > >

Thought this might interested list members - whilst realising our ancestors were not "perfect" - having at least one illegimate child in my tree it is a sad indictment of today's society . Don't wish to cause discussion Pamela NSW >Hello Listers. I saw this in the Guardian today, relevant to my earlier >query about true paternity. Note the estimates of “between 1 and 30 per > cent”. > >“One in 25 fathers may not be the biological parent of the child they >believe to be theirs, according to a study published today. >“Its authors say governments and society have not woken up to how DNA >testing and genetic profiling are lifting the lid on a "Pandora's box" of >hidden sexual behaviour or how the results might affect individuals, family >relationships or public health. >“Their review of estimates of so-called paternal discrepancy over more than >50 years suggests the father was not the natural parent in between 1% and >30% of cases… >“Studies based on populations not being tested for paternity suggested a >3.7% rate, said the authors, but accurate figures were needed for Britain, >where about a third of pregnancies are unplanned and one in five divorces >cites infidelity by one or both partners.” > > >See http://society.guardian.co.uk/children/story/0,1074,1546809,00.html for >the full article. > > > > >

Hi Does anyone know where the records of illegimate births would be for North Haying (1849)? Thanks Val --------------------------------- Yahoo! Messenger NEW - crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail

>> >>Hi All >> >>The thought crossed my mind that it might be helpful to subsequent >>generations of my family, (those interested that is), if I were to include >>"Self Census" information about my household in my records. >> >>I propose to assemble the information from memory etc. as if they were >>official census returns, as at the actual census dates. >>(I hope my memory is good enough). >> >>This would mean that my descendants won't have to wait for the official >>release of each census to find out lots of fascinating facts about me. :-) >> >>I wondered if anybody else had already done this. >> >>All the best >>Dave Dixon >> >> >> >>-- >>No virus found in this outgoing message. >>Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >>Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.5/67 - Release Date: 09/08/2005 >> > > > >==== LONDON Mailing List ==== >Remember, if someone posts a flame on the list, just ignore, or >reply privately. The list managers are watching, and will take care >of it. When we reply to those messages, we are adding to the problem.

A little outside Hampshire, I know, but there's a fascinating booklet from the Westbourne Local History Group called 'The bastards of Westbourne'. The records for that village are very full and I'm hoping to delve into them. One of my ancestors, George Bettesworth, moved from Westbourne to Hayling in 1819 when he married Mary Anne Terrey. For some years he was paying money to the North Hayling overseers, but I haven't been able to find out why. Maybe the bastardy records for Westbourne will tell me. David Blake Knightroots@aol.com wrote: Ancestry Daily News 8/9/2005 - _Archive_ (http://www.ancestry.com/learn/library/category.aspx?category=&type=1&page=1&bydate=1) • _Ancestry Daily News, 9 August 2005_ (http://www.ancestry.com/learn/library/article.aspx?article=10306) • Illegitimacy in England and Wales ____________________________________ Illegitimacy in England and Wales – Sherry Irvine, CGRS, FSA (Scot) Somewhere among our English or Welsh ancestors most of us find at least one instance of illegitimacy, either in the direct line or among close collateral relations. There are a few generally known facts about the topic. Bastard children suffered because their parents did not conform to what was considered moral behavior, local authorities would do their best to avoid costs, and records exist relating to identifying fathers and obtaining support payments. Some of us have used these records, either those generated locally and found among the collective collections known as records of the parish chest, or those from the court of quarter sessions. Not many see the need to understand the intricacies of the law, but the legal background is interesting and could be useful to a search. There is certainly good evidence of this in a recent book, My Ancestor Was a Bastard, by Ruth Paley and published by the Society of Genealogists, (2004). Complexities of the Law Church courts were involved in illegitimacy as far back as the 1500s and beyond. Care of children had a moral side to it and it was the duty of parents to look after offspring born in and out of wedlock. This role was affected by legislation in 1576 that gave justices of the peace the authority to deal with paternity and maintenance cases. In other words, up until the middle of the 1800s there were two types of law that could apply, church law and common law. They did not always agree on whether or not a child was illegitimate. That is not the only complex aspect; inheritance matters could be difficult, and potentially a (http://www.ancestry.com/s19285/t6177/rd.ashx) genealogical gold mine. In her book, My Ancestor Was a Bastard, Paley sets this out in a clear and interesting manner, highlighting legal absurdities along the way. Differences arose depending on how the law was applied and because legal systems around the British Isles were not all the same. What is known as common law applied in England and Ireland, but courts in the two regions acted independently and could interpret the law in different ways. Scotland's legal system was based on Roman law, a factor that contributed to similar types of cases producing dissimilar outcomes. Inheritance issues were also influenced by the view in common law that an illegitimate child was no one's child and legally had no relatives. Provisions had to be made in a will for illegitimate children to receive anything from the estate of a parent. This was an issue for Catholics because their marriage was not always recognized as a legal union. ==== ENG-HAM-PORTSMOUTH-GOSPORT Mailing List ==== Spring clean your tree and see if you can dust off some new rellies ============================== New! Family Tree Maker 2005. Build your tree and search for your ancestors at the same time. Share your tree with family and friends. Learn more: http://landing.ancestry.com/familytreemaker/2005/tour.aspx?sourceid=14599&targetid=5429 --------------------------------- To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre.

From my notes - Hambledon Bishops Transcripts Jan 14 1821 Bapt. of Jane Ann dau of Thomas and Ann Merrett of Barn Green. Occ. Farmer Perf. by C.G. Boyles? Curate of Blinsworth Hope this will help... Edna - Ottawa

From my notes - Hambledon Bishops Transcripts: May 13 1821 Bapt. Martha dau. of Henry and Elizabeth Warren of Hipley Occ. Labour (er) perf. by R.G. Richards, Vicar Jan 7th 1821 Bapt. Eliza dau. of Thomas and Jane Warren near Anthill Heath Occ. Labourer Perf. by Rovt Grant? Curate of Droxford. Might be handy for some of you... Edna -Ottawa

'Morning from a sunny Isle of Portland, It is documented that there was a time down here when proof of pregnancy was almost obligatory before the in-laws would sanction a marriage. Examination of early PRs around the country would also suggest that this was sometimes the case in other places - it's just that, like so many of the other marriage rituals etc. that were celebrated into the 19th century, they didn't go down too well with Victorian society and were eventually out-lawed, and as a result have been white-washed from history - much like the beautiful interior decoration of some of our older churches. Some would call the Victorians a civilizing influence, whereas there are times when you might almost describe them as the new barbarians? Paul Portland, where it is said that the pixies were still alive and well in the 19th Century ;-) On Thu, 11 Aug 2005 05:10:11 EDT, Hillmoore@aol.com wrote: >Hi All, > >Relevant to the recent discussions the question of doubtful parentage and >unplanned pregnancies springs up in my tree several times. My paternal >grandmother having been a widow for over ten years suddenly found herself pregnant at >the age of 47! A quick dash to the register office for that one to make it >all legal. > >I searched for years for my maternal grandparents wedding only to find that >they married on the day my mother's birth was registered. She was two months >old at the time of the wedding and Harry MOORLEY was thus the father according >to the BC or was he? Perhaps he was one of many but my grandmother convinced > him he was the father.Who can tell? > >Ah well thats life. > >Mike >Waterlooville > > >==== ENG-HAM-PORTSMOUTH-GOSPORT Mailing List ==== >Visit the knightroots website at www.knightroots.co.uk > >============================== >Census images 1901, 1891, 1881 and 1871, plus so much more. >Ancestry.com's United Kingdom & Ireland Collection. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13968/rd.ashx 50.33.50N 02.26.70W http://www.pbenyon.plus.com/Naval.html

Good Day, Could someone please check the 1851 Census for Olive CROOK born circa 1812 Soberton, living in the Hambledon area, or further afield.. Thank you, Edna - Ottawa

How true Edna! Kind thoughts Linda and Tony If all births were done "perfectly" this old planet would hardly be populated!

Good Day, If all births were done "perfectly" this old planet would hardly be populated! Cheers, Edna - (;-))ttawa

Hello Valerie There are no separate illegitimate records - in 1849, a birth would be registered in the normal GRO returns and the baptism within the normal parish registers - sometimes the incumbent may put a special note on the baptism entry such a illegitimate or base born or of course, only a mothers name being shown is an obvious clue. HTH Linda & Tony

Two good sites for your Holds:\ http://freebmd.rootsweb.com/cgi/search.pl - Free BMDs www.familysearch.org - LDS site Cheers, Edna - Ottawa

Hi, They would be with the rest of the parish records and thus in the GR0. Have you checked any in the free B -M-D site or the LDS? Edna - Ottawa ----- Original Message ----- From: "valerie petrie" <valeriepetrie@yahoo.co.uk> To: <ENG-HAM-PORTSMOUTH-GOSPORT-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2005 7:08 AM Subject: [PORTSMOUTH-GOSPORT] illegitimate records Hi Does anyone know where the records of illegimate births would be for North Haying (1849)? Thanks Val --------------------------------- Yahoo! Messenger NEW - crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail ==== ENG-HAM-PORTSMOUTH-GOSPORT Mailing List ==== Spring clean your tree and see if you can dust off some new rellies ============================== Census images 1901, 1891, 1881 and 1871, plus so much more. Ancestry.com's United Kingdom & Ireland Collection. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13968/rd.ashx

Ancestry Daily News 8/9/2005 - _Archive_ (http://www.ancestry.com/learn/library/category.aspx?category=&type=1&page=1&bydate=1) • _Ancestry Daily News, 9 August 2005_ (http://www.ancestry.com/learn/library/article.aspx?article=10306) • Illegitimacy in England and Wales ____________________________________ Illegitimacy in England and Wales – Sherry Irvine, CGRS, FSA (Scot) Somewhere among our English or Welsh ancestors most of us find at least one instance of illegitimacy, either in the direct line or among close collateral relations. There are a few generally known facts about the topic. Bastard children suffered because their parents did not conform to what was considered moral behavior, local authorities would do their best to avoid costs, and records exist relating to identifying fathers and obtaining support payments. Some of us have used these records, either those generated locally and found among the collective collections known as records of the parish chest, or those from the court of quarter sessions. Not many see the need to understand the intricacies of the law, but the legal background is interesting and could be useful to a search. There is certainly good evidence of this in a recent book, My Ancestor Was a Bastard, by Ruth Paley and published by the Society of Genealogists, (2004). Complexities of the Law Church courts were involved in illegitimacy as far back as the 1500s and beyond. Care of children had a moral side to it and it was the duty of parents to look after offspring born in and out of wedlock. This role was affected by legislation in 1576 that gave justices of the peace the authority to deal with paternity and maintenance cases. In other words, up until the middle of the 1800s there were two types of law that could apply, church law and common law. They did not always agree on whether or not a child was illegitimate. That is not the only complex aspect; inheritance matters could be difficult, and potentially a (http://www.ancestry.com/s19285/t6177/rd.ashx) genealogical gold mine. In her book, My Ancestor Was a Bastard, Paley sets this out in a clear and interesting manner, highlighting legal absurdities along the way. Differences arose depending on how the law was applied and because legal systems around the British Isles were not all the same. What is known as common law applied in England and Ireland, but courts in the two regions acted independently and could interpret the law in different ways. Scotland's legal system was based on Roman law, a factor that contributed to similar types of cases producing dissimilar outcomes. Inheritance issues were also influenced by the view in common law that an illegitimate child was no one's child and legally had no relatives. Provisions had to be made in a will for illegitimate children to receive anything from the estate of a parent. This was an issue for Catholics because their marriage was not always recognized as a legal union.

Hi All, Relevant to the recent discussions the question of doubtful parentage and unplanned pregnancies springs up in my tree several times. My paternal grandmother having been a widow for over ten years suddenly found herself pregnant at the age of 47! A quick dash to the register office for that one to make it all legal. I searched for years for my maternal grandparents wedding only to find that they married on the day my mother's birth was registered. She was two months old at the time of the wedding and Harry MOORLEY was thus the father according to the BC or was he? Perhaps he was one of many but my grandmother convinced him he was the father.Who can tell? Ah well thats life. Mike Waterlooville