Hello All It's a long time since this discussion, but I have not forgotten it. Unfortunately, I was away on holiday when it all happened and there has been a lot of catching up to do. We are also moving house in two weeks time, so time is a bit short and other matters are pressing. Firstly, to take up Kay's challenge, I think it quite possible that Alfred Amos Chappell/Toghill and Daniel Toghill were the same person. However, I cannot work out a reason why the name should change in the way it did, so for the time being I am keeping them as two people. It is strange that Alfred Amos should be baptised less than two weeks after the wedding of Hugh and Mary Ann, and in a different parish, with him being shown with the maiden name of his mother. When was he actually born? After the wedding? Did Hugh make an honest woman of Mary Ann, and take on another man's baby? It has never been unusual for women to be pregnant on their wedding day, and the presumption is always that the husband of a married woman is the father of the children. All the evidence from this tale is that Hugh was NOT the father! Perhaps we need to see the birth certificate. Secondly, I have another candidate for the Mary Ann Chappell who was witness at the wedding. This is Mary Ann Kilmister (born c 1847 Hawkesbury) who married Francis Chapple. Francis was Mary Ann's uncle, and having your aunt by marriage as a witness would not seem too unusual. Francis and Mary Ann were married at Hawkesbury in 1870, but in 1881 were living at the Oddfellows Arms, Walcot, Bath where Francis was an innkeeper and gardener. Another one in the licensed trade! Now I must get back to sorting papers and packing boxes. Bob Lawrence (male) Incidentally, my close family do not call me by that name. My father's name was Henry Arthur Lawrence (born 1908) and in my lifetime he was called Harry by everyone except his mother and sisters, who sometimes called him Son. As a young man, he was known as Arthur. A schoolfriend of his used to stay with us sometimes, and he called my father Jack. That was because he reminded people of his uncle Jack, who then died in the First World War. My father's younger brother, born after the war, was named Herbert John Lawrence, but called Jack. Later, he was known as "Our Jack" to distinguish him from "Your Jack", who was his brother in law. "Your Jack"'s actual names were Frederick John. Names can be so confusing. ************************************** R.P.& A.L.Lawrence The Hazels, Sheepwood Road, Bristol, BS10 7BS, U.K. Phone: 0117 9504314 ************************************** -----Original Message----- From: ANTHONY SHARP [mailto:sharpafc@btinternet.com] Sent: 14 June 2005 07:36 To: ENG-GLO-HAWKESBURY-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [HWK] Were Alfred Amos CHAPPELL and Daniel TOGHILL the same person? Hi All, I've been reviewing some of my TOGHILL/CHAPPELL/WATTS connections and found yet another little puzzle! Two entries from the PRs - note the dates and locations and spelling of CHAPPLE/CHAPPELL. Parish Register - Hawkesbury, No 406 Feb 28 1875, Hugh Watts TOGHILL 32 ?Haulier/Hawker, of Hillesly, son of Daniel WATTS Farmer & Mary Ann CHAPPLE age 21 spin dau of George CHAPPLE Labourer Witnesses Charles TOGHILL & Mary Ann CHAPPELL. Parish Register - Oldbury on the Hill, No 437 Mar 11 1875, Alfred Amos son of Mary Ann CHAPPELL, Starveall, Hawkesbury. I have been showing Alfred Amos CHAPPELL (later known as TOGHILL) as the son of Hugh Watts TOGHILL & Mary Ann CHAPPLE but, given the above entries, wondered whether Alfred Amos CHAPPELL could be the son of the witness to the marriage instead. However, I can't identify this Mary Ann CHAPPELL (the witness) at present. I've always had a problem with Hugh & Mary Ann's children because, according to the censuses, there seems to be a son Daniel born about the sme time (1875), and, given that Hugh's father was Daniel WATTS, seems most likely to their child. When I put this to Kay he came back with the following analysis, and I would be grateful for any views please. Cheers Carole "I am going to shock you by saying that I believe Alfred Amos CHAPPELL and Daniel TOGHILL are one and the same person. Bob LAWRENCE in his database has them both as children of Hugh Watts TOGHILL and Mary Ann CHAPPELL. If we look at the various Census details: 1881 Alfred TOGHILL aged 6 born Hawkesbury is recorded as Grandson of George CHAPPELL (Farm Labourer) and his wife Jane at Beech Grove, Starveall, Hawkesbury. Also present : Mary A TOGHILL daughter, Widow, Rosa (Rose) A TOGHILL Granddaughter, and sons George CHAPPELL aged 18 born Weston and Frederick CHAPPELL aged 9 born Hawkesbury. 1891 Daniel TOGHILL aged 16 born Hawkesbury Grandson with grandparents George and Jane CHAPPELL of Beech Grove Cottages Hawkesbury 1901 (Wales) Daniel TOGHILL (unfortunately indexed as TOYHILL) aged 26 Single born Hawkesbury at residence of his uncle, Frederick Chappell, in Abertilley Monmouthshire. (Also present was Walter TOGHILL born 1885 Sodbury). If you look at the 1881 and 1891 Census we have firstly Alfred (1881) and then Daniel (1891) with grandparents George and Jane CHAPPELL at the same address in both Census. Alfred is 6 in 1881, Daniel 16 in 1891, and then in 1901 he is 26 with Frederick who was a son of George and Jane. It is far too much of a coincidence to have two TOGHILL grandchildren born in the same year, ( there is no variation as to year of birth over the 20 years between the 1881 Cenus and the 1901 Census) particularly when there is no indication of any other daughter of George and Jane marrying a TOGHILL. I am confident enough to delete Daniel TOGHILL from my records. There is no birth in the GRO Indexes on 1837online for a Daniel TOGHILL in the years 1874-1876 (a fact also recorded by Bob Lawrence in his database). All we know of Alfred Amos CHAPPELL (who subsequently is known as TOGHILL) is that he was born in the March Q 1875 Chipping Sodbury 6a 217 and that he was baptised as a CHAPPELL on11/3/1875. What we do not know is when he was actually born. I suspect that it would have been before 28/2/1875 when his mother married Hugh Watts TOGHILL. (Interestingly 28/2/1875 was a Sunday and 11/3 a Thursday.) I would also suspect that the Parish Priest may have objected to baptising the child as TOGHILL knowing that the birth of the child had been registered as CHAPPELL. I will obtain the birth certificate. This of course leaves still the question, who was Mary Ann CHAPPELL the witness to the marriage? It would not surprise me that this is an error and that Mary Ann’s mother, Jane, was the witness." PS I have to add that Mary ANN CHAPPELL signed her name in the PRs and it is definitely Ann, not Jane. Carole -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.6.9 - Release Date: 11/06/2005 ==== ENG-GLO-HAWKESBURY Mailing List ==== Look out for Get Togethers at The Beaufort: Next one is Sat 7th May and then Sun 16th July. Contact Robert via his web site to book lunch. ============================== Census images 1901, 1891, 1881 and 1871, plus so much more. Ancestry.com's United Kingdom & Ireland Collection. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13968/rd.ashx