Hi Bob & Robert Some more information on this mysterious chap! Bob wondered when he was born – before or after the wedding? Robert argues that Alfred Amos had to be the son of Mary Ann CHAPPEL. Courtesy of Kay I have both the birth certificate for Alfred Amos CHAPPELL (20 days before the marriage) and the marriage certificate for Mary Ann CHAPPELL and Hugh Watts TOGHILL. Birth certificate: No 222. 8th February 1875 Upton Hawkesbury. Alfred Amos, son of Mary Ann CHAPPELL a Domestic Servant - Informant X the mark of Mary Ann CHAPPELL Mother Upton Hawkesbury. 20th March 1875. James Collins Registrar Baptism: Parish Register - Oldbury on the Hill, No 437 Mar 11 1875, Alfred Amos son of Mary Ann CHAPPELL, Starveall, Hawkesbury. Marriage corticate: No 406 Feb 28 1875 Hugh WATTS TOGHILL 32 bachelor Hawker or Haulier? Hillesley, son of Daniel WATTS Farmer & Mary Ann CHAPPLE 21 spinster, Upton George CHAPPLE Labourer. Witnesses Charles TOGHILL & Mary Ann CHAPPEL (All signed) Rather oddly, Mary Ann seems to have learnt to sign her name in the intervening 20 days between the birth of Alfred Amos & her marriage! Although, checking the dates, you could say that she had forgotten how to sign her name between her marriage and the registration of the birth of her son! This does raise questions!! I have checked her signature on the marriage entry in the PRs and there is nothing to suggest that she had just learnt to scrawl her name - in fact I wish I was as neat! I have also checked that there is no confusion between the Mary Ann CHAPPELL or CHAPPLE who were either married or a witness on Feb 28 1875. The witness, Mary Ann CHAPPEL was formerly Mary Ann KILMISTER (the Mary Ann part of her signature is identical as a witness and on her marriage entry - see below) Parish Register - Hawkesbury, No 375 Nov 12th 1870, Francis Chappell, 35 bach Labourer, Little Badminton, Amos Chappell, labourer & Mary Ann Kilmister 24 spin Labourer Little Badminton, Moses Kilmister, Labourer. Wits George Hall & James Kilmister. Geo. C Gardiner, Offcg. Minister. Confused? - you bet!! Cheers Carole -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.5/68 - Release Date: 10/08/2005

Hi Carole That begins to clear things up, and thanks again to Kay for getting the information. However, it still seems odd that a woman should have a baby, get married, and then have the child baptised and registered using her maiden name. Was Hugh Watts TOGHILL not the father of the child? Another thought. How do we know that the Mary Ann who married was the same Mary Ann who had the baby? Is it possible that the Mary Ann who had the baby was the Mary Ann who was a witness, and that this was an illegitimate baby born to a married woman? Amos was the name of the father of the wirness Mary Ann. It also occurred to me that, since Charles Toghill was a witness to the marriage, his wife Elizabeth, my gt-gt-grandmother, could have been there too. Hugh was Charles' half-brother. So this is MY family we are talking about! We move house this week, so it may be a while before I can send messages to the list. Already, my family history files are packed in boxes. Bob ************************************** R.P.& A.L.Lawrence The Hazels, Sheepwood Road, Bristol, BS10 7BS, U.K. Phone: 0117 9504314 ************************************** ¦-----Original Message----- ¦From: ANTHONY SHARP [mailto:sharpafc@btinternet.com] ¦Sent: 13 August 2005 21:17 ¦To: ENG-GLO-HAWKESBURY-L@rootsweb.com ¦Subject: [HWK] Were Alfred Amos CHAPPELL and Daniel TOGHILL the ¦same person? ¦ ¦ ¦Hi Bob & Robert ¦Some more information on this mysterious chap! ¦ ¦Bob wondered when he was born – before or after the wedding? Robert ¦argues ¦that Alfred Amos had to be the son of Mary Ann CHAPPEL. ¦ ¦Courtesy of Kay I have both the birth certificate for Alfred Amos ¦CHAPPELL (20 days before the marriage) and the marriage certificate for ¦Mary Ann CHAPPELL and Hugh Watts TOGHILL. ¦ ¦Birth certificate: ¦No 222. 8th February 1875 Upton Hawkesbury. ¦Alfred Amos, son of Mary Ann CHAPPELL a Domestic Servant - Informant X ¦the mark of Mary Ann CHAPPELL Mother Upton Hawkesbury. 20th March 1875. ¦James Collins Registrar ¦ ¦Baptism: ¦Parish Register - Oldbury on the Hill, No 437 Mar 11 1875, Alfred Amos ¦son of Mary Ann CHAPPELL, Starveall, Hawkesbury. ¦ ¦Marriage corticate: ¦No 406 Feb 28 1875 Hugh WATTS TOGHILL 32 bachelor Hawker or Haulier? ¦Hillesley, son of Daniel WATTS Farmer & Mary Ann CHAPPLE 21 spinster, ¦Upton George CHAPPLE Labourer. ¦ ¦Witnesses Charles TOGHILL & Mary Ann CHAPPEL ¦(All signed) ¦ ¦Rather oddly, Mary Ann seems to have learnt to sign her name in the ¦intervening 20 days between the birth of Alfred Amos & her marriage! ¦Although, checking the dates, you could say that she had forgotten how ¦to sign her name between her marriage and the registration of the birth ¦of her son! This does raise questions!! I have checked her signature on ¦the marriage entry in the PRs and there is nothing to suggest that she ¦had just learnt to scrawl her name - in fact I wish I was as neat! ¦ ¦I have also checked that there is no confusion between the Mary Ann ¦CHAPPELL or CHAPPLE who were either married or a witness on Feb 28 1875. ¦The witness, Mary Ann CHAPPEL was formerly Mary Ann KILMISTER (the Mary ¦Ann part of her signature is identical as a witness and on her marriage ¦entry - see below) ¦ ¦Parish Register - Hawkesbury, No 375 Nov 12th 1870, Francis Chappell, 35 ¦bach Labourer, Little Badminton, Amos Chappell, labourer & Mary Ann ¦Kilmister 24 spin Labourer Little Badminton, Moses Kilmister, Labourer. ¦Wits George Hall & James Kilmister. Geo. C Gardiner, Offcg. Minister. ¦ ¦Confused? - you bet!! ¦ ¦ ¦Cheers ¦Carole ¦ ¦ ¦ ¦-- ¦No virus found in this outgoing message. ¦Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. ¦Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.5/68 - Release Date: ¦10/08/2005 ¦ ¦ ¦ ¦ ¦==== ENG-GLO-HAWKESBURY Mailing List ==== ¦Please remember when you post messages that SURNAMES should be in CAPITALS. ¦ ¦============================== ¦Jumpstart your genealogy with OneWorldTree. Search not only for ¦ancestors, but entire generations. Learn more: ¦http://www.ancestry.com/s13972/rd.ashx ¦ ¦ ¦

Why do you not think that the Mary Ann who had the baby was the daughter of John Lewis Chappel, butcher, of Hillesley Street? She was a domestic servant , unmarried, aged 24 at the time of the birth, still living with her father in 1881. John L. Chappell b abt 1814 at Hawkesbury, Gloucestershire, England Head Mary A. Chappell b abt 1851 at Hawkesbury, Gloucestershire, England Daughter Surely this is the likeliest answer? In 1891 she is still unmarried living in Kingswood (nr Dursley) with her brother Henry and his wife (another Mary Ann Chappel!!) Doug