Have remained on your list, even though I've contributed very little. However, I am hoping that someone can answer the following query which I have received from our own Family History Society in Mandurah, Western Australia.... Member Jean Brand write "I have an idea that at some period in British history marriages took place at the church door and not in the church - can you tell me if this is correct - and if so did it apply to all or only the "common people"? I have no knowledge of this - maybe one of your readers can point me in the right direction. Sincere thanks.... Les Shephard Membership Secretary Mandurah Family History Society

Hi Les Yes this is correct at least in England in the middle to late medieval times, marriages were often performed at the church door, after which the married couple would then proceed inside to hear Mass. But the sacrament was not completed until the marriage was consummated (non-consummation was always grounds for a dissolution). Various restrictions were placed on the collection of the "marital debt" which, contrary to popular belief, the wife had just as much right to demand as the husband. Just a few restrictions included :- no sex in churches or cemeteries, nor on major feast days, nor during pregnancy, nor on top of holy relics, nor with only lust in one's heart! well that cuts it down a bit. In secular law, clandestine marriages were frowned upon because of the difficulties they could bring into determining inheritance. A marriage which was not public or at least witnessed by someone other than the couple could lead to claims on property by other relatives upon the couple's death. It was common for a dowry to be paid the brides share of her father's property, which was given over to her husband, but was sometimes left in her personal control. Also there could be no dower where the groom named part of his property, usually one-third, as the wife's share should she survive him, because a proper dower could only be constituted "at the church door", in other words, in front of witnesses. This public marriage was both to insure that a widow would be provided for and to make sure that heirs were not deprived of their rightful inheritance, the dower property was only for use during the widow's lifetime, after which it passed to the heirs, In later times Will's became common men began leaving their widows possessions in their own right, which unlike dower property, these women could sell or give away as they saw fit. A further reason for the marriage taking place at the door is the financial side of it, probably monetary matters were best taking place outside, this the practice for payment of rents and debts we often see Hawkesbury folk mention in Wills that money was due to paid in the church porch usually on feast days. regards Robert Visit my web pages at http://www.hawkesburyhistory.co.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: "L & L.Shephard" <lodnles@ozzienet.net> To: <ENG-GLO-HAWKESBURY-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2005 9:13 AM Subject: [HWK] Church marriages > Have remained on your list, even though I've contributed very little. > However, I am hoping that someone can answer the following query which I > have received from our own Family History Society in Mandurah, Western > Australia.... > > Member Jean Brand write "I have an idea that at some period in British > history marriages took place at the church door and not in the church - > can you tell me if this is correct - and if so did it apply to all or only > the "common people"? > > I have no knowledge of this - maybe one of your readers can point me in > the right direction. Sincere thanks.... > > Les Shephard > Membership Secretary > Mandurah Family History Society > > > ==== ENG-GLO-HAWKESBURY Mailing List ==== > Visit Robert Millard's local and family history web pages at > http://www.hawkesburyhistory.co.uk. > > ============================== > Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the > last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: > http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx > >

Thank you Robert for your essay on this topic! Fascinating and all news to me. Les's question sent me scurrying to my reference books but I found very little on the subject. I did find this relating to marriages 1000 - 1500: "The handing over of the dowry now took place in the church porch, and so, for king and commoner alike, did the exchange of marriage vows. Some said this was done to keep commercialism out of the body of the church, while others thought a more likely cause was the tricky business of the priests granting permission for man and wife to sleep together. The vows exchanged, everyone moved inside the building for the nuptial mass." The next paragraph of the book deals with "forbidden degrees of consanginuity" for couples about to marry - an issue which has perplexed me for ages, given the number of close relatives that marry in my family! Given the following rules, it is a wonder that there was anyone, in a close knit community like Hawkesbury for example, who could be married. "If it were discovered, never mind how long after the event, that these rules had been broken, the marriage was automatically null and any children declared illegitimate. To complicate matters further, as matrimony was said to make husband and wife one flesh, so her relatives became his and vice versa; which meant that a widow or widower could not marry the first, second or third cousin of the deceased partner. To compound the complications, god parents were looked on as blood relations." Now to read the next chapters! Cheers Carole -----Original Message----- From: Robert Millard [mailto:robert@hawkesburyhistory.co.uk] Sent: 23 June 2005 17:50 To: ENG-GLO-HAWKESBURY-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [HWK] Church marriages Hi Les Yes this is correct at least in England in the middle to late medieval times, marriages were often performed at the church door, after which the married couple would then proceed inside to hear Mass. But the sacrament was not completed until the marriage was consummated (non-consummation was always grounds for a dissolution). Various restrictions were placed on the collection of the "marital debt" which, contrary to popular belief, the wife had just as much right to demand as the husband. Just a few restrictions included :- no sex in churches or cemeteries, nor on major feast days, nor during pregnancy, nor on top of holy relics, nor with only lust in one's heart! well that cuts it down a bit. In secular law, clandestine marriages were frowned upon because of the difficulties they could bring into determining inheritance. A marriage which was not public or at least witnessed by someone other than the couple could lead to claims on property by other relatives upon the couple's death. It was common for a dowry to be paid the brides share of her father's property, which was given over to her husband, but was sometimes left in her personal control. Also there could be no dower where the groom named part of his property, usually one-third, as the wife's share should she survive him, because a proper dower could only be constituted "at the church door", in other words, in front of witnesses. This public marriage was both to insure that a widow would be provided for and to make sure that heirs were not deprived of their rightful inheritance, the dower property was only for use during the widow's lifetime, after which it passed to the heirs, In later times Will's became common men began leaving their widows possessions in their own right, which unlike dower property, these women could sell or give away as they saw fit. A further reason for the marriage taking place at the door is the financial side of it, probably monetary matters were best taking place outside, this the practice for payment of rents and debts we often see Hawkesbury folk mention in Wills that money was due to paid in the church porch usually on feast days. regards Robert Visit my web pages at http://www.hawkesburyhistory.co.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: "L & L.Shephard" <lodnles@ozzienet.net> To: <ENG-GLO-HAWKESBURY-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2005 9:13 AM Subject: [HWK] Church marriages > Have remained on your list, even though I've contributed very little. > However, I am hoping that someone can answer the following query which I > have received from our own Family History Society in Mandurah, Western > Australia.... > > Member Jean Brand write "I have an idea that at some period in British > history marriages took place at the church door and not in the church - > can you tell me if this is correct - and if so did it apply to all or only > the "common people"? > > I have no knowledge of this - maybe one of your readers can point me in > the right direction. Sincere thanks.... > > Les Shephard > Membership Secretary > Mandurah Family History Society > > > ==== ENG-GLO-HAWKESBURY Mailing List ==== > Visit Robert Millard's local and family history web pages at > http://www.hawkesburyhistory.co.uk. > > ============================== > Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the > last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: > http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx > > ==== ENG-GLO-HAWKESBURY Mailing List ==== Visit Robert Millard's local and family history web pages at http://www.hawkesburyhistory.co.uk. ============================== Jumpstart your genealogy with OneWorldTree. Search not only for ancestors, but entire generations. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13972/rd.ashx -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.7.11/26 - Release Date: 22/06/2005 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.7.11/26 - Release Date: 22/06/2005