Hi Karen I little more for you Name: Moritz Lademon Age: 30 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1831 Relation: Head Spouse's name: Auguste Gender: Male Where born: Hamburg Civil Parish or Township: Swansea Ecclesiastical parish: St David Town: Swansea County/Island: Glamorgan Country: Wales Registration district: Swansea Sub-registration district: Swansea ED, institution, or vessel: 6f Neighbors: View others on page Household schedule number: 250 Household Members: Name Age Moritz Lademon 30 Auguste Lademon 28 Caroline Lademon 7 William Lademon 6 Bertha Lademon 4 Fanny Lademon 2 Levinia Lademon 10 Mo Esther Jones 19 RG9; Piece: 4102; Folio: 47; Page: 42; GSU roll: 543235. Last two children born Sunderland Name: Morris Lavender Age: 48 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1833 Relation: Head Spouse's name: Eliza Gender: Male Where born: (B), Germany Civil Parish: St Paul Shadwell County/Island: London Country: England Street address: 20 Mercer Street Condition as to marriage: Married Occupation: Assurance Agent Registration district: Stepney Sub-registration district: Shadwell ED, institution, or vessel: 7 Neighbors: View others on page Household Members: Name Age Morris Lavender 48 Eliza Lavender 42 born Sunderland Henry Lavender 17 Swansea Bernard Lavender 15 Swansea Charle Lavender 12 Swansea Jacob Lavender 10 Sunderland RG11; Piece: 461; Folio: 35; Page: 11; Line: ; GSU roll: 1341101. Definately LAVENDER on the page so either he Anglicised the name or the enumerator misread the writing on the householders schedule Best wishes Nivard Ovington, in Cornwall (UK) > Hello List > > This is my first post to the list. I am trying to trace one of my > Husband's > ancestors and family in the UK. Recently I found a marriage listed in the > index which I thought was this ancestor remarrying. The marriage > certificate > arrived and I am now unsure if it is. > > So far I have found > > 1868 various newspaper listings > August-Oct: Moritz Ladimer 6 Adelaide St Swansea Glamorgan Shipbroker > residing at 3 Trafalgar Terrace Swansea. Went bankrupt August temporarily, > okay by October. > > 1871 Census Sunderland address 140 High St > Moritz Ladimer Head married 40 years ship Broker born Hamburg > Augusta wife married 35 years born Hamburg > Caroline dau unmarried 17 years born Hamburg > William son unmarried 18years Drapers Clerk born Durham > Sunderland > Bertha d > 14 " " > Fanny d 12 > " " > Ciline d > 8 Swansea > Henry s > 7 " > Bernhard s > 5 " > Charles s > 3 " > Kate d > 1 " > > > 1881 Caroline Ladimer is working In Paddington as a cook > > July 1883 Register Officer Marriage between Morris Ladimer to Eliza Robson > nee Wilkinson age 46years widow > Morris is listed as a commission agent age 51 years, bachelor, son of Levi > Ladimer deceased [cigar manufacture]. Living at Edwards St Stockton. > Wittiness Robert Goulder Pearson and Rachel Elizabeth Wilson. > > 1884 Caroline Ladimer marries Meier Illfeld in Paddington Parish, > Middlesex > in a Jewish Synagogue age 31 years. Father is listed as Morris Ladimer > shipbroker. > > Death index > Maurice Ladimir first quarter 1889 Sunderland Durham England > > 1891 census > Eliza Ladimer in infirmary > > Death Index > 1891 Eliza Ladimer > > I haven't been able to find the family in any other census, not the Mother > Augusta Death. > > Reasons I am unsure is the daughter married in a Jewish Synagogue, none of > his sons are names after his Father Levi, he is listed as a bachelor and > not > a widow and his job is a commission agent and not a ship broker. > > Reasons why it might be him, the location, the name is rare in UK records, > the age is correct. > > Karen > Australia

I agree with Michael that Jews tended not to reuse family names over and over. One might name one after a deceased grandparent on occasion to honor the name of the deceased. The names used tended to emulate the character you hoped your child would have when they grew up. May you be like Joseph, Abraham and Isaac, Rachel, Leah, Rivkah (Rebeccah) etc. Not too many Isaac ben Isaac's out there. (Isaac son of Isaac) Janis Chasida bat Avraham v'Devorah

In a message dated 12/05/2009 08:51:04 GMT Daylight Time, rowantreek@gmail.com writes: I am trying to trace one of my Husband's ancestors and family in the UK. Recently I found a marriage listed in the index which I thought was this ancestor remarrying. The marriage certificate arrived and I am now unsure if it is. Further to other answers, there was a book published in possibly the early 1960s, by --- Levy, entitled "A History of the Sunderland Jewish Community". It may have been Oxford University Press who published it, but I may be wrong in that. Not only is the subject well covered in general, but there are extracts given from the Jewish records, the equivalent of Christian Baptism, marriage and burial registers. Although they may not be complete and may not cover the right period, nevertheless, the information about them - what periods are covered by the originals, for instance, could possibly be useful, as could al the background contained within the book. I therefore recommend you to keep a look out for it, althouigh by now it will no doubt be "reference library only" material. In general, it may be relevant to know that there were great upheavals within the Sunderland Jewish community when some members, having links with London, where Reform Judaism was beginning to take hold, tried to introduce it into Sunderland, to the horror of the other members of what seems to have been a very Orthodox Synagogue. One of those with the new ideas was David Jonassohn, the owner of the Usworth estate (and the sinker of Usworth Colliery, the only one, as far as I know, to have been Jewish-owned in the whole of the NE coalfield). I wonder whetrher your ancestors were also caught up in that. Geoff Nicholson

Karen, I am no expert on Jewish naming patterns, but I think that they did not use grandparents names to the same extent that Christians did ! I think that the two occupations " ship broker" and "commission agent" are NOT incompatible. Michael Dixon

Hi Georgia, I had a look on the IGI and found the following that might help. I am afraid some of this disagrees with dates that you quoted. John Ferry Christening 17th June 1827 Houghton le Spring father Thomas Ferry mother Elizabeth Ferry Robert Smith Ferry Christening 12th April 1829 Houghton Le Spring ditto ditto Both shown on batch no. C023243 which shows these are extracted records and not patron submissions. Frances Ferrey Christening 5th Oct. 1823 Houghton Le Spring father Thomas Ferrey mother Elizabeth Ferrey William Ferry Christening 2nd Jan. 1825 Houghton Le Spring father Thomas Ferry mother Elizabeth Ferry Both shown on batch no. C023240 again these are extracted entries and not a patron submissions Jane Ferry Christening 7th June 1818 Houghton Le Spring father Thomas Ferry mother Elizabeth batch no. C030793 another Extracted entry not a patron sub. there was also this one that might be of interest. Mary Farrey birth 27th March 1814 christening 5th June 1814 Gateshead father Thomas Farrey mother Elizabeth. Batch no. P000592 The variations in the spelling of the surname might be because the curate each time wrote down the name as he heard it said. The Bishops Transcripts for Houghton Le Spring are on line at the familysearch site. www.familysearch.org Open the site, look along the top of the page for Search Records, from the drop down list select Record Search pilot, then click on the map of Europe and look for the title England, Diocese of Durham Bishop's Transcripts ca 1700-1900. Go there and then look under Durham where you should find in the list of place names Houghton Le Spring click on the place name and you should get up a list of years covered. The years I have quoted above from my findings should be covered but there may be gaps in the available BTs. If you find the ones you are looking for then you can either print the image out or save it to your computer, or do both if you choose. By looking at the Bts you may find more than you expected because you can also look at the burials and marriages at the same time as you are looking for baptisms. The BTs are not indexed and it is a case of going through them page by page. But you will find that the years covered are split into batches and each batch gives the number or pages that batch covers. if you can work out roughly where within that set number of pages the year you want will fall you can put a page number into the Goto Box at the bottom of the page and jump forward to that page. if it is not quite right you can then go back and forth through the pages using the previous and next buttons or change the Goto Box number again. It is all trial and error but worth persevering. Where did you get the dates of baptism that you have from? You will only get dates of birth for a child if it was written in the parish register or in the Bishop's Transcritps, which ever you look at. Civil registration did not start in England and Wales until July 1837 and before that there was only the church records for such details but not every curate added birth dates to the baptism register. Regards Jenny DeAngelis Spain. <<I am looking for records for the family of Thomas Ferry married to Elizabeth Smith Jul 29, 1820 Houghton-Le-Spring, County Durham, England Children: William Ferry baptized 1818 West Rainton, England Jane baptized 1818 West Rainton, England Thomas baptized 1820 West Rainton, England Frances, daughter baptized Oct. 5, 1923 and burial 12 Jan. 1824 Hetton, age 10 mo. John born Dec. 6, 1826 Easington Lane, County Durham, England and this is my husband's great grandfather and we have his birth date from the Latter Day Saints Church in the United States Robert Smith baptized 1828 Easington Lane, County Durham. These are all the children that I have found with their baptized dates. Don't have their actual birth dates>>.

I am looking for records for the family of Thomas Ferry married to Elizabeth Smith Jul 29, 1820 Houghton-Le-Spring, County Durham, England Children: William Ferry baptized 1818 West Rainton, England Jane baptized 1818 West Rainton, England Thomas baptized 1820 West Rainton, England Frances, daughter baptized Oct. 5, 1923 and burial 12 Jan. 1824 Hetton, age 10 mo. John born Dec. 6, 1826 Easington Lane, County Durham, England and this is my husband's great grandfather and we have his birth date from the Latter Day Saints Church in the United States Robert Smith baptized 1828 Easington Lane, County Durham. These are all the children that I have found with their baptized dates. Don't have their actual birth dates. Only have John. Now---- John Ferry b. 1826 married Elizabeth Jane Willingham around 1845 in the United States, Pennsylvania and have not found their marriage as the records were not kept then. Still trying to find a marriage bond for them, hopefully. I know they were married in this time period for the first child born 1847 and John was naturalized Jun 7, 1947 Pennsylvania. I have the family from PA. to Illinois to Missouri and his death and Jane's death. By the way Elizabeth Jane went by the name of Jane. According to naming patterns I have figured out that the first daughter be named after mother's mother, so I assume that Elizabeth Jane Willingham's mother was either Hanna or Frances. The second daughter would be after the father's mother and this is correct for I have John and Elizabeth Jane's second daughter as Elizabeth. Then the first son would be named after the father's father and yes, we have Thomas. The second son would be after the mother's father and we have John, but there are 5-6 years without any children listed, so don't really know if Elizabeth's father was John or not. John's brother middle name was Willingham and that is how I found Elizabeth Jane Willingham married to John Ferry. I know this is all confusing. For it is for me. But I would like to find some church records with Thomas and Elizabeth Smith and their family so I can put this family line all together. I need help trying to get more info on this line of Ferry's in County Durham. Thanks to all for any help or suggestions given. Georgia

Hi Allan, Surely there should be a birth registration shown in the GRO index. Civil Registration began in July 1837 and all births, no matter where they took place should have been registered with the District Registrar for where the birth occurred. It may be that a birth that took place in a workhouse might be registered by a workhouse employee but the birth should still be registered and should be in the GRO index. Have a look at the Workhouse site set up by Peter Higginbottom, http://www.workhouses.org.uk/ select from the left hand menu Workhouse Locations and then scroll down to County Durham and then look for Houghton Le Spring and click on the place name. This will bring up a page about this particular workhouse and may tell you where any records are kept today. Houghton Le Spring Poor Law Union took in Hetton Le Hole You could also look at the page for Sunderland Workhouse too. Could it be that the mother went to the workhouse infirmary or lying in ward to give birth?, if there were complications she might need the help of a doctor and the nursing staff there, rather than her being an inmate of the workhouse before the and after the birth? Have you found the mother and child in the 1841 census in the workhouse or elsewhere?c Why do you think the child was born in the workhouse? If you gave more details about who it is you are looking for in the workhouse we might be able to help you find the birth in the GRO index or find the mother and baby in the census perhaps. But we need something to work on. Regards Jenny DeAngelis Spain. <<Hello All Would anybody know if there are Workhouse Birth Records of Births around 1840 in Sunderland or the Hetton-Le-Hole area. Thanks Allan>>

Hello All Would anybody know if there are Workhouse Birth Records of Births around 1840 in Sunderland or the Hetton-Le-Hole area. Thanks Allan

There is a "Margaret Young Watson" listed as being born in Q4 1843 on the free BMD index. In the 1851 census there's a Margaret J Young age 7 daughter of Isaac and Sarah living in the parish of St Peter, Newcastle Upon Tyne. Another option is Margaret Young age 12 (probably a bit old), daughter of Robert and Alice in the parish of St Nicholas. If we are looking for people born in Newcastle, there is also: 1851 Census, Monkwearmouth Shore 1851 Census, North Quay William Watson, Head, Married, 30, Optician & Nautical Instrument Maker, born Newcastle-upon-Tyne, Northumberland Jane Watson, Wife, Married, 29, born Newcastle-upon-Tyne, Northumberland Margaret Watson, Daughter, 5, Scholar, born Newcastle-upon-Tyne, Northumberland William T. Watson, Son, 1, born Monkwearmouth, County Durham Hope one of these helps. I have some Watsons from Seaham in my tree if you find your Watson family spread that far. Ruth ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wendy" <pbellw@freenet.co.uk> To: <ENG-DURHAM@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, May 04, 2009 12:54 PM Subject: [ENG-DURHAM] ARMSTRONG, GILROY, WATSON > Just sending my surname interests in case anyone else is following the > same families. I have a Gilroy Armstrong born 1883 in Newcastle, parents > John George Armstrong b. 1841 and Margaret Young Watson b. 1843. I think > John George's parents were William Armstrong b. 1816 and Isabella Gilroy > b. 1816. > I would be glad to hear from anyone who shares these names, or if anyone > could do a look up for me on the 1851 Newcastle census for Margaret Young > Watson (aged about 8) and her family that would be great....... > many thanks > Wendy > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > ENG-DURHAM-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Just sending my surname interests in case anyone else is following the same families. I have a Gilroy Armstrong born 1883 in Newcastle, parents John George Armstrong b. 1841 and Margaret Young Watson b. 1843. I think John George's parents were William Armstrong b. 1816 and Isabella Gilroy b. 1816. I would be glad to hear from anyone who shares these names, or if anyone could do a look up for me on the 1851 Newcastle census for Margaret Young Watson (aged about 8) and her family that would be great....... many thanks Wendy

Hi again Further to my last Searching freebmd for any GOLIGHTLY marriages registered in Gateshead with a Jane on the same page finds Marriages Sep 1846 Burdon Ann Elizabeth Gateshead 24 132 Duffell Elizabeth Gateshead 24 132 Golightly Thomas Gateshead 24 132 Knox Thomas Gateshead 24 132 Lewcock Rachel Gateshead 24 132 Parker Jane Gateshead 24 132 Smeatin William Gateshead 24 132 Smeaton William Gateshead 24 132 Williamson Robert Gateshead 24 132 There are two suitable Jane PARKERS in Whickham 1841, one enumerated born 1826 the other 1829 As its the 1841 the one aged 15 could have been 15 to 19 (due to rounding down) I wonder if its worth checking with the local registrar to see what the original marriage states for the husband ? GRO index definately gives Thomas The only Edward GOLIGHTLY age 20 I find in 1841 is in Wallsend NBL (born out of County) he is a joiner Best wishes Nivard Ovington, in Cornwall (UK) >> Please can anybody help me to find the marriage of Edward GOLIGHTLY and >> Jane...? before 1850 when first child was born. Edward born 1821 and >> Jane 1827 in Dunstan. Can't seem to find it on freebmd >> thanks for any help >> Wendy >

Hi Wendy What appears to be your couple in Whickham 1851 have two children, Margaret Ann and John While there are a lot of Johns I can only see one Margaret Ann as follows Births Sep 1847 Golightly Margaret Ann Gateshead 24 169 That will give you the mothers maiden name, from which you can better search for a marriage Perhaps she (or he) used a different name to marry than they used in every day life This would seem to be her baptism MARGARET ANN GOLIGHTLY Christening: 01 SEP 1847 Whickham, Durham, England Father: EDWARD GOLIGHTLY Family Mother: JANE P002081 1773 - 1875 0091144 Film NONE It looks like an LDS member has looked long and hard for the marriage judging by the entries on the IGI, perhaps they never did tie the knot? The niece in 1861 might also help but cannot make out the surname Eliz SWADDLE ? or Eliz S WADDLE ? Best wishes Nivard Ovington, in Cornwall (UK) > Please can anybody help me to find the marriage of Edward GOLIGHTLY and > Jane...? before 1850 when first child was born. Edward born 1821 and > Jane 1827 in Dunstan. Can't seem to find it on freebmd > thanks for any help > Wendy

Please can anybody help me to find the marriage of Edward GOLIGHTLY and Jane...? before 1850 when first child was born. Edward born 1821 and Jane 1827 in Dunstan. Can't seem to find it on freebmd thanks for any help Wendy

Just sending my surname interests in case anyone else is researching these families. I have a John Golightly b. 1851 married in Gateshead in 1872 to Mary Jane Burns b. 1851 Gateshead Please does anyone have the 1861 or 1871 census for Gateshead who would do a look up for Mary Jane Burns and her family. Many thanks for any help Wendy

Hi List, We have a 15 year old who is a servant in 1841 census in the occupation column it has F S. We know the S would be servant but what would the F stand for? Barbara -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. It has removed 4394 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this message in their emails. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.download.com/Spamfighter/3000-2382_4-10764780.html

Hi J I would take a look at http://www.histpop.org/ohpr/servlet/ However as there were never meant to be lists kept or published for the 1801 to 1831 census I would not think you will find one? The early census were meant to be a statistical exercise only but some census takers went the extra mile and kept their paperwork, some better than others but few and far between on the whole, not many survive, even fewer contain names and details Do you have an abbreviation in mind? Best wishes Nivard Ovington, in Cornwall (UK) Does anyone know where I can find a list of the abbreviations used in the earlier censuses: 1801 1811 1821 1831? Many thanks J On Fri, May 1, 2009 at 8:54 AM, <Stanmapstone@aol.com> wrote: > These are the official abbreviations used in the censuses > > > Ag. Lab. 1841-81 Agricultural labourer > Ap. 1841-61 Apprentice > Army 1841 Members of HM land forces of whatever rank > Cl. 1841-61 Clerk > FS. 1841 Female servant

Does anyone know where I can find a list of the abbreviations used in the earlier censuses: 1801 1811 1821 1831? Many thanks J On Fri, May 1, 2009 at 8:54 AM, <Stanmapstone@aol.com> wrote: > These are the official abbreviations used in the  censuses > > > Ag. Lab. 1841-81 Agricultural labourer > Ap. 1841-61  Apprentice > Army 1841 Members of HM land forces of whatever rank > Cl.  1841-61 Clerk > FS. 1841 Female servant > H.P. 1841 Members of HM armed forces  on half-pay > Ind. 1841 Independent - people living on their own means > J.  1841 Journeyman > M. 1841 Manufacturer > m. 1841 Maker - as in 'Shoe m.' > MS  1841 Male servant > Navy 1841 Members of HM naval forces, including  marines, > of whatever rank > P. 1841 Pensioners in HM armed forces > Rail  Lab. 1851 Railway labourer > Serv. 1861 Servant > Sh. 1841  Shopman > > > Stan Mapstone >

In a message dated 01/05/2009 14:36:59 GMT Daylight Time, gen2mail@googlemail.com writes: Does anyone know where I can find a list of the abbreviations used in the earlier censuses: ______________________________________________________________________ There were no official abbreviations for censuses prior to 1841 which was the first one to be taken under the auspices of the recently formed General Register Office. For an introduction to pre 1841 Censuses see http://www.histpop.org/pre41/listings_a.pdf Stan Mapstone

These are the official abbreviations used in the censuses Ag. Lab. 1841-81 Agricultural labourer Ap. 1841-61 Apprentice Army 1841 Members of HM land forces of whatever rank Cl. 1841-61 Clerk FS. 1841 Female servant H.P. 1841 Members of HM armed forces on half-pay Ind. 1841 Independent - people living on their own means J. 1841 Journeyman M. 1841 Manufacturer m. 1841 Maker - as in 'Shoe m.' MS 1841 Male servant Navy 1841 Members of HM naval forces, including marines, of whatever rank P. 1841 Pensioners in HM armed forces Rail Lab. 1851 Railway labourer Serv. 1861 Servant Sh. 1841 Shopman Stan Mapstone

Hi Barbara, FS Female Servant, MS, Male Servant, Lynne. --- On Thu, 4/30/09, Barb & Dusty Miller <bardus@xtra.co.nz> wrote: > From: Barb & Dusty Miller <bardus@xtra.co.nz> > Subject: [ENG-DURHAM] Occupation > To: "Durham List" <ENG-DURHAM@rootsweb.com> > Date: Thursday, April 30, 2009, 11:47 PM > Hi List, > We have a 15 year old who is a servant in 1841 census in > the occupation column it has F S. > We know the S would be servant but what would the F stand > for? > Barbara