Hello listers, This morning I received the two certificates which I had ordered a few weeks ago(1) marriage certificate for John JOHNSON and Eleanor SIMPSON in 1843 and (2) birth certificate for Alexander JOHNSON, in 1847. AS always, their arrival resulted in a few more questions. Place of residence for both bride and groom is given as Sunny Brow, and a bit of homework has located that on a map for me. They were married in the Parish Church in Brancepeth, and a bit more homework has found me a picture of the church as it was before the fire in 1998, and lots of information on Brancepeth. My questions relate to the occupation of the groom and his father at the time of the marriage, as I am unable to decipher them. I expect that both of them will have something to do with mining, the grooms occupation on the birth of his son is given as Colliery Labourer. Occupation of the groom looks like xxerman, with xx representing unreadable letters, and his fathers' occupation appears to start with M or N and ends in er. I know this isn't really vital to my research, but I like to tie up loose ends. I would be grateful for any suggestions. Judy Thomas --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.592 / Virus Database: 375 - Release Date: 18/02/2004

Hello John, If you do not have access to GRO indexes for the marriage, have you looked at <http://www.durham.gov.uk/gro/search.nsf/search+index> Assuming they married locally of course! There are 2 marriages indexed on here between the years 1901-1910, between a Robert SAYERS and an Elizabeth. You should be able to cross reference with the mother's maiden name on the birth certificate which you have. Regards, -- Helen Oram

In Nottinghamshire when I was boy (1950s) it was always mam, never mum. Mammy when very young. M Adams

Hi hoping somebody might know something that will get me moving! im searching my Sayers line, all i knew to start with was my Grandfathers name and d.o.b, so from that ive managed to get a birth certificate and find his parents names - Robert and Elizabeth Sayers, the birth was registered as in Coxhoe in 1908 - which means i cant check the 1901 census for my grandfather as he wasnt born yet. Im a bit stuck as to where to go next - ive looked on the 1901 census and found a possible Robert and Elizabeth but i have no way of making any connections as thats all the info i have - i have no brothers/sisters names for example. ive looked on freeBMD for the marriage between robert and elizabeth but cant seem to find it anyone got any ideas - or looking in SAYERS themselves? thanks! john

In a message dated 23/02/2004 13:47:13 GMT Standard Time, john@buckland-design.co.uk writes: > ive looked on freeBMD for the marriage between robert and elizabeth but > cant seem to find it > Free BMD does not cover the last 100 years at the best of times, but remember that it is incomplete anyway. The most reliable source is the GRO quarterly indexes to ALL marriages in England and Wales. They are on a pay-per-view site at 1837online, or you may be able to search them yourself on microfiche or microfilm in your local County Record Office or Reference Library. Geoff Nicholson 57 Manor Park, Concord, WASHINGTON, Tyne & Wear NE37 2BU NBL/DUR family history research in depth by THE local expert. Record searching service: you name the records, I search them!

Hello list On this topic Does anyone know whether Roman children called their Mater and Pater - Ma and Pa - using the European long "a" as in "ah" Also my granddaughter calls me grand-da(h) Is this a West Hartlepuddleian peculiarity? Yorus Aye Maurice TAYLOR in Surrey , England Reaeraching TAYLORs - the Blacksmiths of old Stranton

Thanks for everyone's reply to the post. Still have no ideas if the term was used in 19th century though. Eric -----Original Message----- From: david.williams4153 [mailto:david.williams4153@ntlworld.com] Sent: Monday, February 23, 2004 10:56 AM To: Tennett, Eric R.; ENG-DURHAM-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [ENG-DUR] Mum's the word - non-gen Hello Mam is Welsh for mother. Tad, mutates to dad, when addressing him, for father. So, I suggest that both words were taken by the English from the Welsh way, way back. Mam became mum purely down to accent. Tthat's my theory. David Williams in essex ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tennett, Eric R." <ERTennett@cvs.com> To: <ENG-DURHAM-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2004 10:56 PM Subject: [ENG-DUR] Mum's the word - non-gen > Hi all, > > I am curious as to when the term "Mum" was first used in England. Is it a 20th term, or was it used earlier? > > We here in America call our mothers Mom, and our fathers Dad. I know that in the early 1900's, children called there fathers Pa, or at least here in New England they did. But now it's Dad. > > Eric Tennett > > > ==== ENG-DURHAM Mailing List ==== > A-Z of BRITISH GENEALOGICAL RESEARCH > by Dr Ashton Emery > http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/EmeryPaper.html >

In a message dated 22/02/2004 23:54:56 GMT Standard Time, 2zpool@charter.net writes: > I wonder if the American expression "Mums the word" means the same? > Not American but, as usual from Shakespeare, Henry VI, 1590. 'Seal up your lips and give no words but -mum'. Mumchance was also a game of chance with dice in which silence was indispensable. Regards Stan Mapstone

Same for Yorkshire and Cumberland "Mam" or Mammy when we where very young Patricia Clews ----- Original Message ----- From: "Janis" <2zpool@charter.net> To: <ENG-DURHAM-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2004 11:51 PM Subject: [ENG-DUR] Mum's the word - non-gen > Eric, > > You'll find "mum" probably in most parts of England except Co. Durham and > Northumberland where the word usage is mam. > > Which can cause a stir if you tell a female in the area "Yes, Ma'am, or No > Ma'am" (ma'am is short for madam), which might get you the reply "I am not > your mother" and you don't know where that is coming from. > > I wonder if the American expression "Mums the word" means the same? > > Janis > > > ==== ENG-DURHAM Mailing List ==== > query board for Durham gen web > http://www.britishislesgenweb.org/cgi-bin/data/durham.cgi >

Strange - I thought all English folk called their mothers Mummy when they were little and Mum or Mother (with a little attitude for accent) when they were adult. However, I think the original question was "Does anyone know when people started using the term" - however you want to spell it. Did people call their mothers and fathers by diminutive terms such as Mum and Dad a century ago? two centuries ago?? Does anyone know?? Sher at Ontario, Canada At 07:41 PM 2/22/04, you wrote: >Same for Yorkshire and Cumberland "Mam" >or Mammy when we where very young > > >Patricia Clews > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Janis" <2zpool@charter.net> >To: <ENG-DURHAM-L@rootsweb.com> >Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2004 11:51 PM >Subject: [ENG-DUR] Mum's the word - non-gen > > > > Eric, > > > > You'll find "mum" probably in most parts of England except Co. Durham and > > Northumberland where the word usage is mam. > > > > Which can cause a stir if you tell a female in the area "Yes, Ma'am, or No > > Ma'am" (ma'am is short for madam), which might get you the reply "I am not > > your mother" and you don't know where that is coming from. > > > > I wonder if the American expression "Mums the word" means the same? > > > > Janis > > > > > > ==== ENG-DURHAM Mailing List ==== > > query board for Durham gen web > > http://www.britishislesgenweb.org/cgi-bin/data/durham.cgi > > > > >==== ENG-DURHAM Mailing List ==== >Browse the ENG-DURHAM archives >http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/eng-durham

Hi all, I am curious as to when the term "Mum" was first used in England. Is it a 20th term, or was it used earlier? We here in America call our mothers Mom, and our fathers Dad. I know that in the early 1900's, children called there fathers Pa, or at least here in New England they did. But now it's Dad. Eric Tennett

Eric, You'll find "mum" probably in most parts of England except Co. Durham and Northumberland where the word usage is mam. Which can cause a stir if you tell a female in the area "Yes, Ma'am, or No Ma'am" (ma'am is short for madam), which might get you the reply "I am not your mother" and you don't know where that is coming from. I wonder if the American expression "Mums the word" means the same? Janis

> My g g grandparents, William Gray (father John Gray) and Sarah Maddison > (father Lionel Maddison) > Seeing this topic re-surfacing reminds me that it may be useful (or not, as the case may be!) to mention that sometimes one gets a surname where one particular first name is very often used with that surname. If that is a common one, then we would not notice, but if less common it does stand out to anyone trawling the records on a regular basis, as I do. Here we have a good example. Maddison families have used the first name "Lionel" for generations, and certain Lionel Maddisons were very wealthy and prominent in Newcastle society in the 16th to early 19th (at least) centuries. I am not saying that your family were necessarily closely related to the "prominent" Lionel Maddisons - they may just have heard of one and thought that, he being wealthy, it might not do them any harm if they were to use the name also (and perhaps a couple of generations later, persuade the then wealthy Lionel that they were related!). Alternatively, they could be descended from a younger son of a yonger son etc, a branch of the Maddisons which had inherited nothing from their early days apart from the first name. Anyway, it might give you a line of enquiry you hadn't thought of! Geoff Nicholson 57 Manor Park, Concord, WASHINGTON, Tyne & Wear NE37 2BU NBL/DUR family history research in depth by THE local expert. Record searching service: you name the records, I search them!

<My g g grandparents, William Gray (father John Gray) and Sarah Maddison (father Lionel Maddison)> Hello Linda It seems by 1861 Wiliam and Sarah had moved on as they were not at Dragon Villa then. There was this entry for future reference. RG9/3742 Folio 54 Page 4 Sch 19 Dragon Villa, Saint Giles, Durham GRAY John Head Mar 59 General Broker Northumberland Jane Wife Mar 61 Durham Chester le St. Thomas Son Un 24 Coalminer Durham ELLIOT William Boarder Un 16 Coalminer Durham Chester le St. There were no Maddison families. For your ref. I looked at RG9/3742 Folios 53 to 72. Regards Helen K

Would someone be kind enough to look up the 1891 cencus for Robert and Sarah JOHNSON. In the 1881 Cencus they were at Angate Street , and the Cencus Place was Wolsingham Durham. Robert was then aged 60 and Sarah 55. T.I.A. Sue in N.Z.

Hi Sue You don't give a birthplace or other details for Sarah or Robert. I did a quick check on the 1891 census and no Robert or Sarah Johnson of the right age in Wolsingham parish. They are common names so a bit more detail might give a useful clue Sarah ----- Original Message ----- From: "s.tervit" <s.tervit@xtra.co.nz> To: <ENG-DURHAM-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2004 9:33 PM Subject: [ENG-DUR] 1891 Cencus look up > Would someone be kind enough to look up the 1891 cencus for Robert and Sarah JOHNSON. > In the 1881 Cencus they were at Angate Street , and the Cencus Place was Wolsingham Durham. Robert was then aged 60 and Sarah 55. > > T.I.A. > Sue in N.Z. > > > ==== ENG-DURHAM Mailing List ==== > Durham GenWeb Host > http://www.rootsweb.com/~engdur/ >

I could not find them in the 1891 census either. In the 1881 census Robert's birthplace was "on the ocean", Sarah indicated Hayeforth, York about 1828, nor could I find the son Samuel Johnson b. Shildon, Durham about 1862 in the 1891 census. I did find a Sarah Johnson of the right age in Sunderland on Golden Alley but no marital status given and her place of birth was indicated as Sunderland. These are just simple searches there could be spelling errors and the like. Janis

In a message dated 21/02/2004 14:44:28 GMT Standard Time, Hdtmom@aol.com writes: > I hate to be a pest about this but would any of you know which district > or what part of the 1851 census I would need to read to find residents of > Dragon Villa, which I understand is on the outskirts of Durham. My g g > grandparents, William Gray (father John Gray) and Sarah Maddison (father > Lionel > Maddison) were married January 1851 at St. Giles. Both listed their > residences as > Dragon Villa. I am hoping to find one or both of their families still > living > at Dragon Villa in the 1851 census to confirm their parents and siblings I > have in my files. Any help would be greatly appreciated!!! > Linda: Dragonville, part of the parish of Durham St Giles, was enumerated as part of census piece HO 107/2391, which also inlcuded the Gilesgae, Sherburn, Belmont and Pittington districts. Geoff Nicholson 57 Manor Park, Concord, WASHINGTON, Tyne & Wear NE37 2BU NBL/DUR family history research in depth by THE local expert. Record searching service: you name the records, I search them!

Dear List, I hate to be a pest about this but would any of you know which district or what part of the 1851 census I would need to read to find residents of Dragon Villa, which I understand is on the outskirts of Durham. My g g grandparents, William Gray (father John Gray) and Sarah Maddison (father Lionel Maddison) were married January 1851 at St. Giles. Both listed their residences as Dragon Villa. I am hoping to find one or both of their families still living at Dragon Villa in the 1851 census to confirm their parents and siblings I have in my files. Any help would be greatly appreciated!!! Linda

In a message dated 21/02/2004 01:24:50 GMT Standard Time, SusanClr@aol.com writes: > Both Thomas's were involved in iron and/or shipbuilding. I'm not from > Durham > myself, so if anyone can shed light on why the family may have moved from > Washington to Hylton, I'd be grateful, as I haven't been able to find out > much > about the type of jobs in the Washington area circa 1790s. > It would probably be a move along the riverside. There was shipbuilding at both places at that time. Being so far up-river the ships concerned would be only small ones, possibly keels, as keels did ply up-river from Sunderland as far as Cox Green, opposite the Washington riverside industries, and further, to South Biddick (near the modern Fatfield Bridge). There were also staithes at Washngton but not at Hylton. Other Washington industries at the time would be coal mining and related activities such as leading waggons on waggonways from various pits in Washngton and elsewhere down to the riverside staithes. Oxclose pit and the "F" pit would possibly be the main ones in Washington at the time but there were also several smaller ones, and some waggonways came for many miles before reaching the Wear at Washington. There was, of course, also the usual agricultural background. Washington Chemical Works were not founded by Hugh Lee Pattison until the 1840s. Geoff Nicholson 57 Manor Park, Concord, WASHINGTON, Tyne & Wear NE37 2BU NBL/DUR family history research in depth by THE local expert. Record searching service: you name the records, I search them!