My experience has been similar to Karen's. I waited patiently for my pre-ordered 1861 Durham Census to arrive and spent several months of spare time hunting for my Dixon family, but along the way found lots of Dodds and other interests, as well as brushing up my geography. You find children from larger families lodging next door, or apprenticed and living down the street a bit. I think I must have scanned most of central and south-western Co Durham before I found my missing family in Grape Lane, Durham. I also confirmed my suspicion that family members who helped the enumerator in 1881 only had a vague idea about where the older members of the family were born (in Cumbria). Based on the 1881, I was looking in the wrong place. I now have added another 2 or 3 generations to my tree, both backward and forward in time. A person index for the 1861 would have been a help, and a better place index would have been even more useful, but I think I really value the opportunity to spend those hours searching and learning. Richard Merry -----Original Message----- From: Lynn Karen [mailto:Karen.Lynn@sglos-pct.nhs.uk] Sent: Friday, 27 February 2004 6:46 PM To: ENG-DURHAM-L@rootsweb.com Subject: RE: [ENG-DUR] Stepping Stones 1851 Census > From: GNicresearch@aol.com [mailto:GNicresearch@aol.com] > Sent: 26 February 2004 09:13 > > However, if you want to know whether > there are any > references to a name etc in a document there is no substitute > for line-by-line > searching to find out. Yes, it will take longer and no, it > will not be as exciting > as the instant gratification of an index, but instant > gratification is not > what historical research is about! Painstaking, careful, > thoughtful, research > is more to the point. I recently purchased the 1861 Durham Census from Archive CD Books, which is also unindexed. I would argue that it was actually _more_ exciting when I came across a family I was looking for having had to search through line by line. The value of searching through oneself is that of finding things I would probably have missed if I'd only looked at an index ... like finding cousins or future wives in neighbouring properties. And no, I'm not retired with endless time: I work full-time, study with the Open University, play in a quiz league, support a football team, have friends and relations to visit ... but a methodical record of where I've searched and using the odd 15 mins here and there gradually gets it all done. Karen --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.595 / Virus Database: 378 - Release Date: 25/02/2004

Image sent off-list. John ----- Original Message ----- From: "Helen Hiscock" <helenh48@westnet.com.au> To: <ENG-DURHAM-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2004 10:56 AM Subject: [ENG-DUR] 1891c LOOK UP > Hello List, > > Would someone please look-up in the 1891c - Joseph b 1853 and Annie b 1854 BROUGH in Durham. They married in 1884 in Durham and were in Yorkshire by 1894. They had children - > Walter, Jenny, Daniel [died as an infant] and Frank. I do not know their > ages. > > TIA > > Helen > West Aust. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.596 / Virus Database: 379 - Release Date: 26/02/2004

In a message dated 28/02/2004 02:50:05 GMT Standard Time, helenh48@westnet.com.au writes: > the 1891c Is this a new abbreviation for "The 1891 census enumerators' notebooks"? If so, I wish you had told us - and whether it comes with any authority (the British Standards Association, the National Archives, the Oxford English Dictionary, etc) or whether you have just made it up yourself on the spur of the moment. The less guesswork we introduce into our research the better for all. Also the more accurate and less likely to mislead our research will be. All our writings are all about communication anyway, aren't they? We probably all have our own little "private abbreviations", whch is they way in which we think of these things. I know I have many - but they remain private and I would never think of inflicting any of them on anyone else, much less of doing so with the assumption they will know what I mean. In case anyone accuses me of "flaming" - no this is not meant as such. Rather is it meant with the greatest of respect, and to be helpful. Geoff Nicholson 57 Manor Park, Concord, WASHINGTON, Tyne & Wear NE37 2BU NBL/DUR family history research in depth by THE local expert. Record searching service: you name the records, I search them!

Hi listeners, I am looking for any information on William Charles Smith. In 1891 he lived at #1 Stotts Pasture, was age 54. His wife's name was Sarah. I believe Sarah is Sarah Widdowfield. If William Charles is in your family, please contact me. Thomas William Usherwood Robinson b.in Gateshead. He was married 16 Sep 1869 to Isabel, [possibly Widdowfield]. He may have died in Sep 1888, age 62. If any of you know of Thomas W.U. Robinson, please contact me. Thank you for your time. Phyllis....California....USA __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Get better spam protection with Yahoo! Mail. http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools

Thanks to everyone who replied to me,all your help and replies were appreciated. kind regards Mike Todd

Seeing Helen's posting with the web site prompted me to have another look for an ALDERSON/HINDMARSH marriage in 1845. I have been unable to locate it in the GRO indexes, and think it must be one of those that has an error. I can find the bride, but not the groom. However, such was not the case with the Durham indexes, and I have now ordered the certificate, and this morning receiving confirmation that my order has been processed. When you live on the other side of the world as I do, having on-line indexes is a blessing. Judy Thomas Melbourne, Oz. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.594 / Virus Database: 377 - Release Date: 24/02/2004

Helen, just tried - cant find anything, sometimes there are too many roberts to display unless i guess that hes married etc. Also, i dont actually know where he was born - another problem! thing is i can seem to find him on the 1881 census either at the LDS site. Info i didnt put on my post: he was 31 when he married in 1907, therefore born about 1876 his occupation is quarryman, his father Henry is down as farmer thanks john > Subject: Re: [ENG-DUR] SAYERS: im stuck again already... > > > In message > <AF73CD3B-6881-11D8-9030-000A95A6F20A@buckland-design.co.uk>, john > <john@buckland-design.co.uk> writes >> does anyone have any ideas... >> >> thanks to someone pointing me to the www.durham.gov.uk website, i >> have managed to track down the marriage certificate for the Robert >> Sayers im looking for - this has given me his age (31) and his >> fathers name (Henry) both of which i didnt know, i thought it would >> then start to get easier! Trouble is i cant seem to locate Robert on >> the 1901 census or the 1881 census (i dont have access to the 1891 >> census - can somebody look for me?). >> >> any help appreciated! >> >> john > Hello John, > What was the occupation of Robert & Henry SAYERS as given on the > marriage certificate? > If the name has been spelt incorrectly in the 1901 census index, > perhaps you may be able to do an advanced search by first name & > occupation only. > Regards, > -- > Helen Oram

Whereas the excitement of a thorough street walk is probably incomparable with just looking up in an index. As a sufferer of bad migraines and Fibromyalgia, neither my eyes nor my neck would permit me to do this. Without the generous help of listers and the indexes now thankfully appearing, my searching would be very limited. I guess there is room for both kinds of discovery within our consuming hobby. Cheers, Pen

RG12/4105 Folio 22 p1 106 Claypath, St Nicholas, Durham TODD William Head age 58 labourer Jane Wife age 56 Robert son 31 labourer Mary Jane dau 21 Dora dau 18 All born Durham (city) This turned out to be fairly easy to find even though there were 117 William Todds in Co. Durham in 1891. However, could I please ask that if anybody has lookup requests for the 1891 census that they include as much detail about the family in question as possible. The database can be searched by census place, place of birth, age (one year at a time) and, of course, forenames and surnames (in addition to folio/piece). In the above example, it would have been much easier to search for Dora since there are only 6 of them to wade through. If a name has been scrambled in the index (unfortunately all too common), then the other clues are essential in locating the family. I hope this helps, Irene -----Original Message----- From: Mike Todd [mailto:michael@todd3333.fsnet.co.uk] Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2004 2:07 PM To: ENG-DURHAM-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [ENG-DUR] 1891 Census Lookup Would someone be kind enough to look up the following for me in the 1891 Census? William TODD of Claypath, St Nicholas, Durham. Thanks Mike Todd

> From: GNicresearch@aol.com [mailto:GNicresearch@aol.com] > Sent: 26 February 2004 09:13 > > However, if you want to know whether > there are any > references to a name etc in a document there is no substitute > for line-by-line > searching to find out. Yes, it will take longer and no, it > will not be as exciting > as the instant gratification of an index, but instant > gratification is not > what historical research is about! Painstaking, careful, > thoughtful, research > is more to the point. I recently purchased the 1861 Durham Census from Archive CD Books, which is also unindexed. I would argue that it was actually _more_ exciting when I came across a family I was looking for having had to search through line by line. The value of searching through oneself is that of finding things I would probably have missed if I'd only looked at an index ... like finding cousins or future wives in neighbouring properties. And no, I'm not retired with endless time: I work full-time, study with the Open University, play in a quiz league, support a football team, have friends and relations to visit ... but a methodical record of where I've searched and using the odd 15 mins here and there gradually gets it all done. Karen

Hi Geoff, Thanks for your input! I agree with what you are saying, and I did wonder if there were 2 Hannah's! What left me puzzled though, was that I have all the HUBBARD children's baptism entries at Ryhope, and no Hannah's baptisms at all! I know, I still need to look through the GRO indexes!! Thanks very much to Paul Roberts, who has very kindly offered to look in the birth and death indexes for me! Jan Boyes > In a message dated 25/02/2004 18:28:43 GMT Standard Time, > markandjanboyes@ntlworld.com writes: > > > I have looked on Free bmd site, and there are no more Hannah HUBBARD's > > listed, born or died in the area where mine was, in that time scale! > > I haven't looked in the GRO indexes at the library though! > > > In other words you have used only an incomplete secondary source and > not used the complete primary source! Your information is therefore incomplete > and, as such, proves nothing. > > I suspect that the Hannah whose death certificate you have found was a > second Hannah ("Hannah II") and that the first one ("Hannah I") had died > before Hannah II was born. Hannah II died aged 10 months in June 1866, so was > born around August 1865. Hannah I was born in Jan 1864 so there was plenty of > time for her to have died between then and the birth, or even the conception, of > Hannah II. > > Geoff Nicholson >

Would someone be kind enough to look up the following for me in the 1891 Census? William TODD of Claypath, St Nicholas, Durham. Thanks Mike Todd

Hello List, Would someone please look-up in the 1891c - Joseph b 1853 and Annie b 1854 BROUGH in Durham. They married in 1884 in Durham and were in Yorkshire by 1894. They had children - Walter, Jenny, Daniel [died as an infant] and Frank. I do not know their ages. TIA Helen West Aust.

In message <AF73CD3B-6881-11D8-9030-000A95A6F20A@buckland-design.co.uk>, john <john@buckland-design.co.uk> writes >does anyone have any ideas... > >thanks to someone pointing me to the www.durham.gov.uk website, i have >managed to track down the marriage certificate for the Robert Sayers im >looking for - this has given me his age (31) and his fathers name >(Henry) both of which i didnt know, i thought it would then start to >get easier! Trouble is i cant seem to locate Robert on the 1901 census >or the 1881 census (i dont have access to the 1891 census - can >somebody look for me?). > >any help appreciated! > >john Hello John, What was the occupation of Robert & Henry SAYERS as given on the marriage certificate? If the name has been spelt incorrectly in the 1901 census index, perhaps you may be able to do an advanced search by first name & occupation only. Regards, -- Helen Oram

does anyone have any ideas... thanks to someone pointing me to the www.durham.gov.uk website, i have managed to track down the marriage certificate for the Robert Sayers im looking for - this has given me his age (31) and his fathers name (Henry) both of which i didnt know, i thought it would then start to get easier! Trouble is i cant seem to locate Robert on the 1901 census or the 1881 census (i dont have access to the 1891 census - can somebody look for me?). I have checked FreeBMD for a birth and found a strong possibility as 1877 in Auckland. I could really do with finding him on the census as this can give me his Fathers (Henry) age as well as siblings and mothers names any help appreciated! john

Hello, Again, thanks for everyone who helped lookup my last request on the 1861 & '71 census. I now have the follwing family from the 1851 and hopefull that someone could fill in the missing info...mainly the occupation of Robert: Darlington DUR Holy Trinity parish HO107/2382 folio 514 TENNIFF? Robert 37 Yks Caldwell TENNIFF Elizabeth 32 DUR St Helens Auckland TENNIFF William 10 DUR Darlington TENNIFF Thomas 8 DUR Darlington TENNIFF Robert 6 DUR Darlington TENNIFF Margaret 4 DUR Darlington TENNIFF John G. 1 DUR Darlington I'm sure the family's name is mis-spelled as it should be TENNETT. Thank you, Eric Tennett

Hello List, In response to the lister who just criticized people who prefer an index to census CD's ordered: Some people who are doing genealogy are not retired, and do not have unlimited hours to devote to it. I myself have three small children, two jobs, and am a student. It would not make very much sense for me to buy an unindexed CD of County Durham. I am reminded of recently subscribing to Ancestry.com, and having access to the 1891 oline. I found one particular family in Carlisle, Cumberland, when I had expected to find them around Newcastle on Tyne. Sometimes hours of search can be fruitless, and using the indexes can avoid that. I do very much enjoy genealogy, but do have less time to pursue it. Everyone have a great day, Janet in Canada _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/bcomm&pgmarket=en-ca&RU=http%3a%2f%2fjoin.msn.com%2f%3fpage%3dmisc%2fspecialoffers%26pgmarket%3den-ca

In a message dated 25/02/2004 22:36:22 GMT Standard Time, Stanmapstone@aol.com writes: > In a message dated 25/02/2004 18:46:53 GMT Standard Time, > GNicresearch@aol.com writes: > > >I therefore do not use modern names such as Tyne and  Wear, Cumbria, > Cleveland etc for any events before 1974, > > For an explanation of the 1974-myth and the problems it can cause historians > > and genealogists see > > http://www.abcounties.co.uk/newgaz/cen.htm#section3.4 > > Regards Stan Mapstone > Also, Carole wrote:                 I always write it as I see it !        There seems here to be a little confusion between two similar but different things.  When copying a document - ie making a transcript - it is, of course, essential to write precisely what is in the original, errors, unconventional spellings and all.  This is because what you are writing down is "what the document says".        However, when writing something "for today" some attention has to be given as to how things will sound today.  For instance, I would always call Ryton part of Co Durham when writing in a historical context, but in a modern-day one I would put it as part of Gateshead, and if I thought that what I was writing was likely to be read by present-day strangers I might add "which is itself part of the former Tyne and Wear".        The main thing, however, is to avoid saying, for instance, that someone lived in Tyne and Wear when one is writing about a period when that had not even been thought of, never mind existed.  "They lived in what was to become Tyne and Wear" is, of course, permissible though possibly of dubious value to the reader!                           Geoff Nicholson 57 Manor Park, Concord, WASHINGTON, Tyne & Wear NE37 2BU NBL/DUR family history research in depth by THE local expert. Record searching service: you name the records, I search them!

In a message dated 25/02/2004 23:19:05 GMT Standard Time, janetchopkins@hotmail.com writes: > Hi Robert, > I'm curious how much the Stepping Stones 1851 for County Durham costs, and > whether the CD's are indexed, or is it an onliine search thing? > I bought the 1871 London CD set from S&N genealogy, looking for some > relatives, but the onlline indexes are so far behind, that I haven't in fact > > found even one individual, after spending 160 dollars Canadian. The site > doesn't mention of course, the percentage of names that are indexed. So, do > > consider how searchable the information will be before you go ahead. > Janet in Canada > Robert: If other Stepping Stones publications are anything to go by, the 1851 census will be a facsimile of the original and therefore unindexed. Think of it as buying the complete set of microfilms for the county and you will see what a bargain it is! I am not allowed, of course, to quote the price, even if I knew it, but while relaistic, I would not expect it to be out of this world - something about the same as, or perhaps a little less than, the S&N county censuses. I am always a little disappointed when I see people either assuming there will be, or sometimes almost demanding, an index. Indexes are of course a wonderful help to searching - if they are good ones! I use indexes professionally all the time, but I usually know how reliable they are, and often know the indexer as well! However, if you want to know whether there are any references to a name etc in a document there is no substitute for line-by-line searching to find out. Yes, it will take longer and no, it will not be as exciting as the instant gratification of an index, but instant gratification is not what historical research is about! Painstaking, careful, thoughtful, research is more to the point. You have asked about the price (which I am not allowed to tell you), but I think I can say this - it will be about a quarter (my guess) of what it would have been if someone had to spend all the hours it would take to commercially compile an index to it. Most of Co Durham's 1851 census has in fact been indexed, by the NDFHS, Cleveland FHS and others, all volunteers, but in many parts. If you know the town or the census Piece you are interested in then you could always buy the relevant index. Geoff Nicholson 57 Manor Park, Concord, WASHINGTON, Tyne & Wear NE37 2BU NBL/DUR family history research in depth by THE local expert. Record searching service: you name the records, I search them!

I always write it as I see it ! Then I add my own infomation, about change in the boundry's Carole Robinson Member of NDFHS ----- Original Message ----- From: "relder" <relder@tiscali.co.uk> To: <ENG-DURHAM-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2004 11:18 AM Subject: [ENG-DUR] Place Names > When filling in places names where family were born or died etc in 1800/1900 do you put down as I.E Birtley Co Durham or Birtley Tyne & Wear, or Cumberland/ Cumbria or does it not really matter as the Boundary may change at a later date. It is just that the census show them as the old names. Just a thought > Bob > > > ==== ENG-DURHAM Mailing List ==== > This list is only as good as you make it. Please Participate and help keep it interesting! If you do not like or agree with something on the list then your options are:(1)Simply 'delete' the relevant message(s)(2)'reply to that mail off list to the sender only'(3)unsubscribe' from the list! >