In a message dated 14/03/2004 11:10:55 GMT Standard Time, grannykay@tiscali.co.uk writes: > I am looking for the birth of Thomas LICKLEY around 1823 in "Shields". He > stated at his marriage that he did not know his father. I'm afraid I do not > know whether it is North or South Shields. > Kay: How sure are you of his having been born in 1823? I have a note of a Thomas, son of Thomas and Elizabeth Luckley baptised at Tynemouth on 3 June 1838. The original will tell you the father's occupation and the parents' address. North Shields was in the parish of Tynemouth and whereas Lickley is a very unusual surname hereabouts, there were usually several Luckleys around. Since both North and South Shields were ports, there were several non-Church of England churches in both towns at the time in question, particularly various strains of Presbyterians, catering for sailors of Scottish origin. Are you sure that what you say is correct - that "he stated at his marriage that he did not know his father"? It frequently happens that for one reason or another the "Father's name" section of the marriage entry is left blank, but that is not in itself a statement of anything - just an omission. I have never seen it taken up with a statement such as you mention, so if so, it is very unusual. Geoff Nicholson 57 Manor Park, Concord, WASHINGTON, Tyne & Wear NE37 2BU NBL/DUR family history research in depth by THE local expert. Record searching service: you name the records, I search them!

In a message dated 14/03/2004 04:56:42 GMT Standard Time, btones@bigpond.net.au writes: > 2537. 24 May 1834. > > (1) Edward Wylam of Findon Cottage, Co. Durham, Esq. > (2) Jane Bird of Chester le Street, Co. Durham, widow. > *William Jackson of Chester le Street, surgeon. > (3) John Bird of Chester le Street, gent. > Copies of 2 Admittances by the court for the manor of Chester Deanery of > (1), each to 3 acres in the West Field of Chester surrendered by (2) in trust > for (3). (Lot 3). Paper 3ff. > > I wonder if anyone can explain to me (in simple terms) what this means? > This sounds to me like an extract from either the Durham Record Office on-line catalogue or else from that of Durham University Library, Archives and Special Collections. It is in the standard format for describing Deeds in any cartulary or Record Office catalogue, and I would have thought it fairly straightforward. There were two small (3 acres each) pieces of land which lay within the Manor of Chester Deanery. That was a small manor close to Chester le Street, the Lord of which was not the Bishop of Durham, who was Lord of the Manor of Chester le Street itself, but the owner of the estate known as Chester Deanery. Jane Bird and William Jackson had been the effective joint "owners" of the land. They were copyholders, that is their proof of their right to the land was their copy of the Roll, or record, of the Lord of the Manor's Halmote (Manorial) Court, at which they had been "admitted" (ie permitted to occupy the land), on payment of a "fine" or fee, plus a small nominal rent (usually 4d per acre per year, which would be 1/- per year for each of the plots here). However, Jane and William were not the copyholders on their own behalf, but held the land in trust for John Bird. It is likely that the previous owner, perhaps John Bird's father or uncle, had left the land (or money) in that way in his Will, possibly because John was under age when the Will was written. However, Jane and William had "surrendered", ie given up, the land to Edward Wylam, no doubt for a "consideration" or price not mentioned in this abstract of the Deed, though possibly (not always) mentioned in the Deed itself. Presumably the terms of the Trust allowed them to invest the money other than in that piece of land - the Trust may have given them that land in the first place, with power to sell if they thought fit, or it may have been in money at the start they having bought the land with it as an investment, which they now wished to change. The process of selling copyhold land was one which had to involve the Lord of the Manor's Halmote Court, as the original owners (Jane and William) had to surrender it to the Court, and only the Court could then grant it out again, this time to Edward, presumably at the request of Jane and William, who had taken Edward's money on that understanding. Edward would then have had to pay the fine to the Court for entry onto the land, and he would have had to agree to pay the nominal rent, whereupon he would have been given his own copy of the Court Roll and would have become the copyholder. Note that when I say "fine" I am not implying there had to be any recognition of law-breaking. The word was used with its original meaning of "an end" - ie a payment which settled any outstanding disputes, satisfied all parties and so "put and end to the matter". Fines were often required when legal agreements were entered into. As for the precise nature of the land, a lot depends on whether the West Field of Chester, no doubt originally one of the "open fields", farmed on the old mediaeval system of one-acre strips, had been enclosed or not. If it hadn't been enclosed then the total of six acres were probably in six separate strips, perhaps having originated several ownerships ago as two holdings of three acres each. If it had been enclosed by 1834 then we are probably talking about two small three-acre fields or paddocks which may or may not have been adjacent to each other. I would say there is a good likelihood that Jane Bird was John Bird's mother, his father being the one who had set up the trust, and that William Jackson might have been another close relative - perhaps Jane's brother. Note that none of the parties was described as a farmer, so the land concerned was being held purely as an investment, and was no doubt sub-let to some local farmer who would do the actual work on it. One little niggle - you call this query "Non-gen". I don't agree. Not only may it shed light on the parentage of John Bird, but it might provide evidence of a relationship of some sort with William Jackson. On a wider scale, it is certainly not non-family history. I would regard this Deed as an important piece of evidence of the standing and finances of the family, and one which helps flesh out the persons concerned as real people. It is quite definitely something which should come into the scope of interest of a family historian as well as of a genealogist. Geoff Nicholson 57 Manor Park, Concord, WASHINGTON, Tyne & Wear NE37 2BU NBL/DUR family history research in depth by THE local expert. Record searching service: you name the records, I search them!

In a message dated 13/03/2004 10:57:54 GMT Standard Time, Rwloulou@aol.com writes: > Can someone please let me know the address for the Durham 1851 on line as > I've not been into this one yet. > http://www.durhamrecordsonline.com/index.php Regards Stan Mapstone

In a message dated 13/03/2004 10:52:40 GMT Standard Time, HelenMSul@aol.com writes: > looking at 1851 Census, there is a Family > Number given. > The extreme left hand column in a census enumerator's book shows a "Schedule Number". Each house has a separate schedule number. The enumerator also had instructions to make a double line // at the start of each household, as some houses could possibly contain more than one "household". (For example, in the case of apartments). A Schedule Number should not be confused with a house number. Regards Stan Mapstone

Helen, You can email them and ask them info@durhamrecordsonline.com; I suspect it is for their record keeping. If you use the service and are registered it well tell you if you have ever looked at this record or anyone else in this same family so you don't buy to look at something you have already seen. Janis

Can someone please let me know the address for the Durham 1851 on line as I've not been into this one yet. I am researching Wilcox and Burge in this area. Thanks in advance Louise

Good Morning Listers, I am still fairly new to this list and was wondering if SKS could help me. At Durham Records Online site, looking at 1851 Census, there is a Family Number given. Could someone tell me what this is for? Will it help with any future records? Regards Helen

For the benefit of new listers - YourMapsOnline is a free resource for historians, with over 150 old maps online - downloadable - for use in your research. All the maps are scanned from originals and shared online by the owners of these maps - they are *your* maps! If you have any suitable old maps and would like to share a scan with fellow researchers, then I would be happy to put them on the website. Just email me off-list. This is how the site started back in March 2003 - with over 50,000 hits since then - so I must be doing something right. Remember - they are *free* to download, for personal research purposes - please don't abuse the generosity of others. A full Atlas of John Cary County maps from 1797 - to buy this atlas today would cost in excess of £2000 - if you can find one! Town plan maps, Strip Road maps, Lewis, Bartholomew, Fullerton etc.. - a maps library online! There are also an invaluable number of maps-Links to further your research. http://www.yourmapsonline.org.uk David Ford. ---------------- Old Maps & Etchings Online - A free resource for researchers. http://www.yourmapsonline.org.uk The YourMapsOnline CD-Rom now available! 150+ Scanned Images on CD-Rom - Your own Maps Library!. http://www.youroldbooksandmaps.co.uk A selection of Historical Books & Atlases on CD-Rom. New releases 2004 - Annals of Yorkshire Vol 1+2 1865, Staffordshire 1812 Topographical History, History & Antiquities of Masham and Mashamshire 1865, Chronicles of the tombs - Epitaphs 1864.

Carol/Stan I can remember Normans the builders in West Lane Chester-le-Street when I was a lad in the sixties (19!!) I don't know when they stopped trading. They also became Undertakers. Neither businesses are there today. Tony Surtees tsurt@btinternet.com  

Hello, I would be really grateful if someone could look up the 1891 census for me for the following family. In the 1881 census they were living at Dwelling 519, Census place Iveston, Durham but I have not been able to find them on the 1901 census. Thomas Sennett, head, born Cornwall, coal miner aged 38 on the 1881 census Catherine Sennett, wife, born (NK), Wales, aged 30 on the 1881 census Joseph Sennett, son, born Hunstanworth, Durham, scholar, aged 12 on the 1881 census Robert Sennett, son born Leadgate, Durham, scholar, aged 7 on the 1881 census I have seen the surname also written as Sinnett. Many thanks for any help you can give. Regards Anne

From the web site of All Saint's Church, Hampton, Middlesex. http://www.allsaintshampton.co.uk/index.htm "Are you preparing to enter college or a professional trade?; Are you under 21yrs?; Do you live in the Hampton or Hampton Hill area?; Do you need help with tuition fees, travelling or maintenance expenses? - The School of Industry Charity has limited funds but may be able to help you, For an application form ring: 8979 4333" Regards Stan Mapstone

Hello list Thanks to all who replied to my querie regarding above. As you can see from the various answers, there is still no definitive answer. Is there a difference between school of industry and industrial school ? Sarah was a boarder in the school, although it was in the next street or 'Gate' to her cousins ?? Bob HILDROP Looking for HILDROP,s anywhere, any time

In a message dated 11/03/2004 21:04:40 GMT Standard Time, robert@hildrop.freeserve.co.uk writes: > As you can see from the various answers, there is still no definitive > answer. > Schools of Industry for girls, were Charity schools established by a person, or a group, for philanthropic reasons, initially to teach reading, writing and plain needlework in order to prepare girls for domestic service. They date at least from the end of the 18th. Century. These were completely different to the 'Industrial Schools' established by the 1857 Industrial School Act. Regards Stan Mapstone

Hi: I just received a copy of a form completed in 1940 by my grandfather, in his hand, at the request of the Government of Canada, in which his answer to the question: "Have you ever previously served in the Military?" was: Durham Artillery 1891-1894 (or 1899) - Bombardier; Durham Yeomanry 1899-1900 - Trooper. Is there anyone on the List who can advise me to whom I should write to obtain a copy of his military service file? Any help would be appreciated. Cheers, Ed Witherden, B.C., Canada <ewitherden@shaw.ca>

In a message dated 11/03/2004 11:29:44 GMT Standard Time, markandjanboyes@ntlworld.com writes: > Thought some of you who live local, may be in interested in the History day > at Durham CRO in May. > I went last year, and found it really interesting - learnt quite a few > things! > Jan: Yes, indeed, it could be just what many researchers need to inspire them to get down to some serious work! However, it seems to me that there could be some who may be confused between that annual event and the "every-two-years" "Yesterday Belongs to You" days. There was one of those last year, and so there will not be one this year. That means there will be no tables from all sorts of local history-oriented organisations, no booklets to buy, full of all sorts of interesting information, no re-enactments, etc, etc. Your list of what will be on is comprehensive, so those thinking of attending should realise - what you see on Jan's list is (all) what you will get! Geoff Nicholson 57 Manor Park, Concord, WASHINGTON, Tyne & Wear NE37 2BU NBL/DUR family history research in depth by THE local expert. Record searching service: you name the records, I search them!

To the listers who live in the north east, Thought some of you who live local, may be in interested in the History day at Durham CRO in May. I went last year, and found it really interesting - learnt quite a few things! Below is what I've copied and pasted from the Durham web page. Discover Durham History Day - 15 May 2004 As part of 'Local History Month 2004' the Record Office will be holding a Discover Durham History Day in County Hall, Durham City, on Saturday 15 May 2004, between 9.30 a.m. and 4.00 p.m. The day will consist of a series of one-hour sessions which you can 'mix and match'; and the topics include: learning to read old documents, tracing your family tree, maps and plans, and World War I records. The cost of the day will be £10 (including tea/coffee) and a booking form with further details is available as either a pdf file or a text file. Below is the URL, if anyone wants to download the order form, and find out more details about the sessions etc. http://www.durham.gov.uk/recordoffice/usp.nsf/pws/Durham+Record+Office+-+Abo ut+Us+-+Latest+News Jan Boyes

My grandmother obtained a position in a Girls Industrial School after she was widowed. She lived in as did the girls and she was the Sewing Matron. From what I can gather these schools were the "answer" to orphaned girls and those who had a minor brush with the law, the idea being to give them the skills to obtain work, so sewing/cooking/domestic management skills were taught as well as a basic level of literacy. When leaving the schools places of employment were found for the girls where possible, some of these involved emigrating to provide domestic help for farms etc in Canada/America. regards, Dorothy Dorothy Holden Dover Kent England Uk Random Acts of Genealogical Kindness Volunteer http://www.raogk.org/england.htm

In a message dated 11/03/2004 02:28:08 GMT Standard Time, nquinn32@rochester.rr.com writes: > Would anyone on the list have any city directories for Gateshead in the > years following the 1881 census? You can access directories yourself at the Digital Library of Historical Directories http://www.historicaldirectories.org/ Regards Stan Mapstone

In a message dated 11/03/2004 02:28:08 GMT Standard Time, nquinn32@rochester.rr.com writes: > He supposedly worked as a printer. > Would anyone on the list have any city directories for Gateshead in the > years following the 1881 census? A looot depends here on what, precisely, you mean by "he worked as a printer". If he ran his own printing business then he would appear in local Trade Directories, of which there were several after the date you mention (see Original Indexes' on-line catalogue, for instance). If, however, he simply worked as a printer for a firm he himself did not own, then he is unlikely to be in the Trade Directories. If, by "City Directories" (NB Gateshead was eventually a County Borough: it has never been a city!) you mean, not Trade Directories, but Electoral Rolls - lists of those entitled to vote - then they have not been published, though there is a good set in Gateshead Public Reference Library and Tyne and Wear Archives may also have some. However, to use them in practice you would really need to have some fairly precise idea of the address, ie the street and maybe the Ward of the town in which that street is or was. Geoff Nicholson 57 Manor Park, Concord, WASHINGTON, Tyne & Wear NE37 2BU NBL/DUR family history research in depth by THE local expert. Record searching service: you name the records, I search them!

Thankyou , I never thought about doing that I think you are possably right! ----We learn something every day! Geoff Nicholson recomended looking at the actual census , which I was going to do!--but the internet is to much temptation I just get carried away!!! Thanks again Carole Robinson Member of NDFHS ----- Original Message ----- From: "Anne Hamilton" <annehamilton@ntlworld.com> To: <ENG-DURHAM-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 8:06 PM Subject: Re: [ENG-DUR] 1881 Census ,Mis-transcription > Hi Carole, > I for one, ( off list almost as it is a personal opinion) would like to > think that Elizabeth was at the forefront of suffragetism! (excuse spelling > if incorrect). > > (back to list) - However, having had a look at the 1881 census on the LDS > site and noting on the household page following the Barras family, that > there is no occupation mentioned for the Head of household (William Norman & > family) and then having had a quick glance at the 1901 census for that > possible William Norman which (if correct William Norman) says he is a > builder and contractor with a Fred Norman living in the same household who > was a joiner, then I could take a guess (pure supposition) that the 1881 > census was incorrectly transcribed. > What a shame. (However, I might be wrong...) > > Regards > Anne > > > > > THOMAS BARRAS Head Male 50 South Shields, Durham, > > England ( Inspector of Nuisances) > > ELIZABETH BARRAS Wife Female 47 South Shields, Durham, > > England. (Joiner & Cartwright Employing 1 man and and Two > > lads) > > > > Could this be an occupation for a woman in 1881, or do you think it is a > > mis-transcription ? > > > > > > > > ==== ENG-DURHAM Mailing List ==== > ENG-DURHAM list specificaly covers all of County Durham > http://website.lineone.net/~pjoiner/genuki/DUR/parishes.html >