> According to Pigot's Directory of Durham 1834, there was a "Fighting >Cocks" Inn, situated in the Market Place , Wolsingham. The proprietor >was a John Eggleston. > >Perhaps Ann's mother was either related to the family at the Inn, or >there was a lady there who had some midwifery skills. > Further to the above, by 1841 the "Fighting Cocks " was run by Jonathan BRUMELL (Robson's Directory of Durham). Regards, -- Helen Oram

In message <000001c45ea9$e27244c0$37556251@homesttygng2hh>, John Tillotson <john.tillotson@virgin.net> writes >Greetings >I have a copy of the birth certificate of an ancestor ANN ILEY. >She was born in Wolsingham on 23rd May 1838. >Her father JOSEPH was a 'Labourer'. >What puzzles me is that the place of birth was "Fightingcock's >Wolsingham". >What or where was this ? >Best wishes >John Tillotson > Hello John, According to Pigot's Directory of Durham 1834, there was a "Fighting Cocks" Inn, situated in the Market Place , Wolsingham. The proprietor was a John Eggleston. Perhaps Ann's mother was either related to the family at the Inn, or there was a lady there who had some midwifery skills. Regards, -- Helen Oram

In a message dated 01/07/2004 09:42:24 GMT Daylight Time, GNicresearch@aol.com writes: Gazateer . . Sorry about this! Of course I meant "Gazetteer", I think my mind must still be boggling after hearing about Gazza's plans to open a chain of pubs, of all things for him of all people to do, in Newcastle! . . Geoff Nicholson . 57 Manor Park, Concord, WASHINGTON, Tyne & Wear NE37 2BU Ask for details of NBL/DUR family history research in depth by THE local expert, working for YOU.

In a message dated 30/06/2004 14:55:56 GMT Daylight Time, john.tillotson@virgin.net writes: I have a copy of the birth certificate of an ancestor ANN ILEY. She was born in Wolsingham on 23rd May 1838. Her father JOSEPH was a 'Labourer'. What puzzles me is that the place of birth was "Fightingcock's Wolsingham". What or where was this ? . . Sounds like a pub, doesn't it? However, I don't think it was. I think it is more likey to have been an isolated farm, but I cannot find it on the OS 1st edition 1" map, nor is it mentioned in Whellans' Dirctory of Co Durham (2nd edition 1894). This leads me to think that perhaps it did not survive into the later part of the nineteenth century. I have also looked at the "Durham Family History Gazateer", published by Durham Record office and based on all the place-names occurring on the OS 1st edition 6" map. The only Fighting Cocks it lists is the well-known one in Middleton St George parish, originally a pub but also the site of a junction on the Stockton and Darlington Railway. That is a long way from Wolsingham! . . Geoff Nicholson . 57 Manor Park, Concord, WASHINGTON, Tyne & Wear NE37 2BU Ask for details of NBL/DUR family history research in depth by THE local expert, working for YOU.

Hello there When I Googled I found this a ref to 1901 census areas As I dont know Durham area I cant be sure it relates to your Fighting Cocks but thought it might help This is a link that will take you to a map of Fighting Cocks area http://www.genuki.org.uk/cgi-bin/maplink?CCC=DUR,GR=NZ340140,PLACE=Fighting%20Cocks Christine 1901 census 4614 Darlington Hurworth Barmpton, Blackwell, Fighting Cocks, Great Burden, Hurworth, Low Dinsdale, Middleton One Row, Middleton St George, Morton Palms, Neasham, Sadberge, Sockburn ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Tillotson" <john.tillotson@virgin.net> To: <ENG-DURHAM-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 2:55 PM Subject: [ENG-DUR] Wolsingham query > Greetings > I have a copy of the birth certificate of an ancestor ANN ILEY. > She was born in Wolsingham on 23rd May 1838. > Her father JOSEPH was a 'Labourer'. > What puzzles me is that the place of birth was "Fightingcock's > Wolsingham". > What or where was this ? > Best wishes > John Tillotson > > > ==== ENG-DURHAM Mailing List ==== > To unsubscribe send the command unsubscribe to > ENG-DURHAM-L-request@rootsweb.com (if in mail mode) > or ENG-DURHAM-D-request@rootsweb.com (if in digest mode.) > > --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.712 / Virus Database: 468 - Release Date: 27/06/2004

Greetings I have a copy of the birth certificate of an ancestor ANN ILEY. She was born in Wolsingham on 23rd May 1838. Her father JOSEPH was a 'Labourer'. What puzzles me is that the place of birth was "Fightingcock's Wolsingham". What or where was this ? Best wishes John Tillotson

<<<In a message dated 30/06/2004 17:13:52 GMT Daylight Time, christine1945@blueyonder.co.uk writes: 1901 census 4614 Darlington Hurworth Barmpton, Blackwell, Fighting Cocks, Great Burden, Hurworth, Low Dinsdale, Middleton One Row, Middleton St George, Morton Palms, Neasham, Sadberge, Sockburn>>>> Yes, there was a village called Fighting Cocks north of Middleton St George, on the Darlington and Yarm road. There is a Fighting Cocks pub on the road from Dinsdale Station to the A67, but this is nowhere near Wolsingham. Regards Stan Mapstone

Hello List, If some kind person would look up the 1861 Census for a Alexander Campbell not sure what year he was born, I would think between 1812 and 1817 to have a son Andrew Campbell born 1837? All I know is Alexander Campbell was a Shoe Maker in November 1857 when his son Andrew Campbell married Elizabeth Fergus in Hartlepool, Durham. Andrew Campbell was a Shipwright and so was Elizabeth Fergus's Father John Fergus. I would think Alexander Campbell was born in Scotland. I know Andrew Campbell was born in Scotland, I only know this information from the 1881 Census until I find more about Alexander Campbell I will not be able to find Andrew Campbell's birth in Scotland, I have narrowed it down to 2 possible in Midlothian Scotland with fathers named Alexander but would like to find Alexander in any Census even the 1851 Census if Possible please. Have anyone seen a Alexander Campbell Shoe Maker in any Censuses please. born between 1812 and 1817 maybe. If anyone can help me I would appreciate it. Thank you in advance for any help I might receive. Kind Regards Pamela J Groves

I don't know if this helps but I found an Alexander Campbell in the 1851 census in Scotland where the father is a bootmaker and there is a son Andrew but maybe this is one of the possibilities that you have looked at. County and City Location: Midlothian -A Lasswade Dwelling Location: Page 11, Number 138 Approximate Birth Name Occupation Year Birth Place Campbell, Alexander,Bootmaker emplys 4 men ,1812, Liberton @ MLN Campbell, Jessie , 1814 West Kirk @ MLN Campbell, Robert , Scholar,1842 Lasswade @ MLN Campbell, Andrew, Scholar,1843 Lasswade @ MLN Campbell, William J, Scholar,1845 Lasswade @ MLN Campbell, Jane, At Home,1847 Lasswade @ MLN Campbell, Alexander, At Home,1848 Lasswade @ MLN Campbell, Margaret, At Home,1850 Lasswade @ MLN Andrew and wife, Elizabeth, and children are living in Walker, Northumberland in the 1871 census and in Longbenton in the 1891 census. If you would like the information there please email me. I can send you the images also. Janis

I suspect that there were quite wide differences according to the type of locality. A few illegitimacies on my family tree, not lots, but from memory most women seem to have pregnant when married (or at least well over the 33% quoted) - and that's just going by the marriage to baptism of 1st child, i.e. could have been more (baptism late, child born dead, miscarriage after the wedding). The clergy may not have approved but I have read it was even expected that a woman be pregnant before a couple married, having children was so important a couple wouldn't want to find they couldn't. Of course after getting pregnant some women were deserted by the men they had expected to marry them, leading both to illegitimate children and children whose "father" wasn't the blood one. There were certainly class differences (uncommon in middle class) and I think it was growth of middle class and accompanying attitudes that changed things in the early C20th. ----- Original Message ----- From: <Stanmapstone@aol.com> To: <ENG-DURHAM-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2004 4:12 PM Subject: Re: [ENG-DUR] Illegitimate children > <<<In a message dated 29/06/2004 12:16:46 GMT Daylight Time, > JessicaMeek@aol.com writes: > Were illegitimate children common back in the 1800's? I seem to have a lot > in my family? Could this just be my family or was there a lot of > illegitimacy?>>>>> > > The national rates have varied over time, about 6 per cent in 1800 to almost > 7 per cent by 1845, Apparently a third of woman at this time were already > pregnant at the time of marriage, by the 1890s the official figure was 4 per > cent. > To put these figures in perspective the 1994 rate was about 33 per cent. > Servants in rural areas were particularly likely to be mothers of > illegitimate children; they were away from parental control, often denied the normal > formalities of courtship, and prone not only to the attentions of their masters > but also those of their fellow servants. > > Regards Stan Mapstone > >

<<<In a message dated 29/06/2004 12:16:46 GMT Daylight Time, JessicaMeek@aol.com writes: Were illegitimate children common back in the 1800's? I seem to have a lot in my family? Could this just be my family or was there a lot of illegitimacy?>>>>> The national rates have varied over time, about 6 per cent in 1800 to almost 7 per cent by 1845, Apparently a third of woman at this time were already pregnant at the time of marriage, by the 1890s the official figure was 4 per cent. To put these figures in perspective the 1994 rate was about 33 per cent. Servants in rural areas were particularly likely to be mothers of illegitimate children; they were away from parental control, often denied the normal formalities of courtship, and prone not only to the attentions of their masters but also those of their fellow servants. Regards Stan Mapstone

In a message dated 29/06/2004 13:43:58 GMT Daylight Time, robert@welbourn.com writes: Yes, there were plenty. Same human urges, but no contraception. It is very instructive just to read records of baptisms in parish registers! Rob. At 07:16 AM 6/29/2004, JessicaMeek@aol.com wrote: >Were illegitimate children common back in the 1800's? I seem to have a lot >in my family? Could this just be my family or was there a lot >of illegitimacy? . . Agreed. It was in ALL families, and at ALL periods. Every time a married woman had a child, the father of that child was automatically assumed to have been that woman's husband, however unlikely that was. I have seen baptism entries from the early nineteenth century (1st decade thereof) where the clerk has described a child, in an almost apologetic side comment, as "child of (the mother's name), but not, it is to be feared, of her husband, who has been away fighting in France for the last five years"! . . I have known people assume a child was illegitimate just because the father's name is not stated in an index. Reference to the original register might reveal whether the mother was a spinster (ie the child really was illegitimate) or a recent widow, in which case it was probably posthumous. . . It is interesting to note the many euphemisms used by early clerks who either could not bring themselves to write "illegitimate" or couldn't spell it. "Bastard" and "base born" ("b b")are the commonest, but there are many others. "Natural child" is polite enough, and obviously factual, but "a by-blow" is rather more obscure and "child of the people" sounds as though it could hide some unwritten scandal! . . I know the so-called "politically correct" do not like to use the word, but it is probably true that there are more bastards born today, by far, than ever in the last 1,000 years, so we would have no real grounds, as a society, for taking up "holier than thou" positions with respect to it among our ancestors. . . Geoff Nicholson . 57 Manor Park, Concord, WASHINGTON, Tyne & Wear NE37 2BU Ask for details of NBL/DUR family history research in depth by THE local expert, working for YOU.

Yes, there were plenty. Same human urges, but no contraception. It is very instructive just to read records of baptisms in parish registers! Rob. At 07:16 AM 6/29/2004, JessicaMeek@aol.com wrote: >Were illegitimate children common back in the 1800's? I seem to have a lot >in my family? Could this just be my family or was there a lot >of illegitimacy? > > >==== ENG-DURHAM Mailing List ==== >query board for Durham gen web >http://www.britishislesgenweb.org/cgi-bin/data/durham.cgi Rob Welbourn 24 Wilde Road Waban, MA 02468-1325, USA Tel +1-617-558 0182

Were illegitimate children common back in the 1800's? I seem to have a lot in my family? Could this just be my family or was there a lot of illegitimacy?

Hello List: I am trying to trace details of an ancestor who I find in Chatham Convict Prison (Kent) in 1881 and am hoping someone on the list may be able to help. The ancestor in question was born and lived in County Durham for most of his life (apart from when he was in prison) and even died in the County. From family 'gossip' he spent two periods in prison. One unknown and the one mentioned above, There are two things I would like to know.. 1. Was there any difference between a Convict Prison and what I may term as an ordinary Prison in 1881?. 2. Are there web sites where I may be able to find information which may lead me to find out when and where the crime was committed, what the crime was and the sentence handed down? Yours sincerely, Norman Woods.

<<<In a message dated 28/06/2004 17:20:02 GMT Daylight Time, norwood38@btopenworld.com writes: 1. Was there any difference between a Convict Prison and what I may term as an ordinary Prison in 1881?. 2. Are there web sites where I may be able to find information which may lead me to find out when and where the crime was committed, what the crime was and the sentence handed down?>>> 1. Prisons over Two Centuries http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/docs/prishist.html 2. The Black Sheep & Police Index http://www.lightage.demon.co.uk/ Regards Stan Mapstone

In a message dated 26/06/2004 13:24:13 GMT Daylight Time, VMSPEED@aol.com writes: Would a member of a Primitive Methodist congregation have kept a shop selling alcohol? (I thought they were Baptists / Weslyans.) . . There has never been any Law preventing it but in the 19th century Methodism, of any variety, and total abstinence were usually considered to always go together. To actually make a living from selling alcohol would be anathema to any true Primitive Methodist. . I find that the Primitive Methodist churches seldom had graveyards of their own and folk were buried in nearby graveyards belonging to other denominations. If that is the case, were their burials recorded and by whom? . Methodist registers usually cover baptisms only. A burial would always be recorded but by the owners of the graveyard in which it took place. Before the advent of Local Authority Municipal Cemeteries, Methodists, and other denominations as well, would all have been buried, as of necessity, in the local parish churchyard, as that would have usually been the only burial ground in the parish. The records of such burials will be in the parish register. If there was a convenient Muniicipal Cemetery then that would probably have been used instead (unless there was a family grave existing in the churchyard, a widow wishing to be buried with her deceased husband, for instance), and their records will be among those of the Local Authority - possibly still at the Cemetery Office, possibly in the Civic Centre or Town Hall ("Parks and Cemeteries Department") or possibly deposited in the local County Record Office. . . Geoff Nicholson . 57 Manor Park, Concord, WASHINGTON, Tyne & Wear NE37 2BU Ask for details of NBL/DUR family history research in depth by THE local expert, working for YOU.

Well done Daphne, that's probably it - one little letter wrong. And thanks Christine for the link to Willington-on-line, will have a look at that. Thanks again, Anne ----- Original Message ----- From: <daphneh6@tiscali.co.uk> To: <ENG-DURHAM-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, June 26, 2004 1:42 PM Subject: RE: [ENG-DUR] Place name help please - Esten? Durham > Ann, > Have just spotted that there is an ESTON just off the A174 SE of Middlesburgh. > > Daphne > > > >>-- Original Message -- > >>From: "Anne Hamilton" <annehamilton@ntlworld.com> > >>Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 13:18:43 +0100 > >>To: ENG-DURHAM-L@rootsweb.com > >>Subject: [ENG-DUR] Place name help please - Esten? Durham > >> > >> > >>Hi, > >> > >>Wonder if anyone can help with this place name please? It was copied from > >>a 1908 newspaper cutting and passed on to me. But I cannot find it on > multimap > >>or anywhere else so think it might have been written incorrectly - unless > >>it's the name of a house. > >> > >>Esten - would probably have been near the Crook & Billy Row, Fir Tree, > >Willington > >>area. > >> > >>Many thanks for any suggestions. > >>Regards > >>Anne > >> > >> > >>==== ENG-DURHAM Mailing List ==== > >>This list is only as good as you make it. Please Participate and help > keep > >>it interesting! If you do not like or agree with something on the list > >then > >>your options are:(1)Simply 'delete' the relevant message(s)(2)'reply to > >that > >>mail off list to the sender only'(3)unsubscribe' from the list! > >> > > > > > >__________________________________________________ > >Broadband from an unbeatable £15.99! > > > >http://www.tiscali.co.uk/products/broadband/home.html?code=SM-NL-11AM > > > > > > > > > > > >==== ENG-DURHAM Mailing List ==== > >ENG-DURHAM list specificaly covers all of County Durham > >http://website.lineone.net/~pjoiner/genuki/DUR/parishes.html > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Broadband from an unbeatable £15.99! > > http://www.tiscali.co.uk/products/broadband/home.html?code=SM-NL-11AM > > > > > > ==== ENG-DURHAM Mailing List ==== > query board for Durham gen web > http://www.britishislesgenweb.org/cgi-bin/data/durham.cgi >

Ann, Have just spotted that there is an ESTON just off the A174 SE of Middlesburgh. Daphne >>-- Original Message -- >>From: "Anne Hamilton" <annehamilton@ntlworld.com> >>Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 13:18:43 +0100 >>To: ENG-DURHAM-L@rootsweb.com >>Subject: [ENG-DUR] Place name help please - Esten? Durham >> >> >>Hi, >> >>Wonder if anyone can help with this place name please? It was copied from >>a 1908 newspaper cutting and passed on to me. But I cannot find it on multimap >>or anywhere else so think it might have been written incorrectly - unless >>it's the name of a house. >> >>Esten - would probably have been near the Crook & Billy Row, Fir Tree, >Willington >>area. >> >>Many thanks for any suggestions. >>Regards >>Anne >> >> >>==== ENG-DURHAM Mailing List ==== >>This list is only as good as you make it. Please Participate and help keep >>it interesting! If you do not like or agree with something on the list >then >>your options are:(1)Simply 'delete' the relevant message(s)(2)'reply to >that >>mail off list to the sender only'(3)unsubscribe' from the list! >> > > >__________________________________________________ >Broadband from an unbeatable £15.99! > >http://www.tiscali.co.uk/products/broadband/home.html?code=SM-NL-11AM > > > > > >==== ENG-DURHAM Mailing List ==== >ENG-DURHAM list specificaly covers all of County Durham >http://website.lineone.net/~pjoiner/genuki/DUR/parishes.html > __________________________________________________ Broadband from an unbeatable £15.99! http://www.tiscali.co.uk/products/broadband/home.html?code=SM-NL-11AM

Ann, could it be ELSTOB? though it's a bit further SE of Willington, Daphne >-- Original Message -- >From: "Anne Hamilton" <annehamilton@ntlworld.com> >Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 13:18:43 +0100 >To: ENG-DURHAM-L@rootsweb.com >Subject: [ENG-DUR] Place name help please - Esten? Durham > > >Hi, > >Wonder if anyone can help with this place name please? It was copied from >a 1908 newspaper cutting and passed on to me. But I cannot find it on multimap >or anywhere else so think it might have been written incorrectly - unless >it's the name of a house. > >Esten - would probably have been near the Crook & Billy Row, Fir Tree, Willington >area. > >Many thanks for any suggestions. >Regards >Anne > > >==== ENG-DURHAM Mailing List ==== >This list is only as good as you make it. Please Participate and help keep >it interesting! If you do not like or agree with something on the list then >your options are:(1)Simply 'delete' the relevant message(s)(2)'reply to that >mail off list to the sender only'(3)unsubscribe' from the list! > __________________________________________________ Broadband from an unbeatable £15.99! http://www.tiscali.co.uk/products/broadband/home.html?code=SM-NL-11AM