In a message dated 21/07/2004 00:03:05 GMT Daylight Time, honey@honeyshome.com writes: Would the page number be "FC 544243"? That's the only number on the certificate but that could just be their number from this year, not 1848, couldn't it? Wait, hang on ... The number in the first column is 389, is THAT the number you mean? I didn't mention this in my first post either, but the registration district is/was Lanchester, birth in the sub-district of Lanchester, County of Durham. What was meant by the page number is not something you would find on the certificate irself. It is the number of the page in the Registrar General's book of copies of certificates. This is the reference to be found in the GRO indexes (the one we should NOT quote unless we are ordering a certificate from the FRC in London, who now have those books: it is meaningless to a local registrar who has his own books). That reference will begin with a code for the region, possibly "25" for the period you mentioned: later 10a, followed by the page number. As there were, I think, four certificates per page, multiple births might have been recorded on the same, or on consecutive pages. You should check through the GRO indexes (available on line for a fee) for any entries with the same surname on the same, or an adjacent, page. If you find any they may, or may not, be of a multiple birth to the same mother. I agree that in England the recording of the time of birth was done only for multiple biirths - as a general rule. However, in Scotland, for the first few quarters after the introduction of Civil Registration there, in 1855, it was the norm for all births. There is always the possibility that the local registrar hereabouts was an over-enthusiastic Scot, in the same Presbyterian tradition of recording as much data as possible as gave us the "Dade" parish registers of the midlands and south, the "Barrington" ones locally and, in 1855, the early Scottish birth certificates! . Geoff Nicholson . 57 Manor Park, Concord, WASHINGTON, Tyne & Wear NE37 2BU Long-established Professional Genealogist: ask for details of NBL/DUR family history research by THE local expert, working for YOU.

Hi Mandy :) Would the page number be "FC 544243"? That's the only number on the certificate but that could just be their number from this year, not 1848, couldn't it? Wait, hang on ... The number in the first column is 389, is THAT the number you mean? I didn't mention this in my first post either, but the registration district is/was Lanchester, birth in the sub-district of Lanchester, County of Durham. Durham is so confusing, isn't it? I'm so glad I've got an English gentleman teaching me some things (not a list member) because I'd be thoroughly lost by now!!! Take care, Rob. IBSSG Stuttgart, Germany Honey's Home of Genealogy www.honeyshome.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Mandy Fenyvesi To: ENG-DURHAM-L@rootsweb.com Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2004 12:17 AM Subject: Re: [ENG-DUR] Elizabeth ARMSTRONG To find if she had a twin, you could look up the page number of the birth certificate you ordered and see if there is another ARMSTRONG birth there. Would give you a name possibly. Mandy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robyn Leeds" <honey@honeyshome.com> To: <ENG-DURHAM-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2004 3:25 PM Subject: Re: [ENG-DUR] Elizabeth ARMSTRONG > "it is unusual for the time of birth to be included on an English birth cert. unless it was a multiple birth, e.g. twins - " > > You're kidding?!? So I'm possibly looking for TWO births?!? Oh crumbs, ONE was bad enough!! lol Thanks Ruth, I'll definitely keep that in mind, because it was definitely written down as "4h pm" on the certificate. I assumed it was meant to be something like 4 hours pm, but could I be wrong? > > Take care, > > Rob. > > > ==== ENG-DURHAM Mailing List ==== > Browse the ENG-DURHAM archives http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/eng-durham > ==== ENG-DURHAM Mailing List ==== This list is only as good as you make it. Please Participate and help keep it interesting! If you do not like or agree with something on the list then your options are:(1)Simply 'delete' the relevant message(s)(2)'reply to that mail off list to the sender only'(3)unsubscribe' from the list!

No - I think you're right. It means 4 hours in the p.m. Ruth Appleby Basse Normandie, France La.Retraite@tiscali.fr -------Original Message------- From: Robyn Leeds Date: 07/20/04 23:27:27 To: ENG-DURHAM-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [ENG-DUR] Elizabeth ARMSTRONG "it is unusual for the time of birth to be included on an English birth cert unless it was a multiple birth, e.g. twins - " You're kidding?!? So I'm possibly looking for TWO births?!? Oh crumbs, ONE was bad enough!! lol Thanks Ruth, I'll definitely keep that in mind, because it was definitely written down as "4h pm" on the certificate. I assumed it was meant to be something like 4 hours pm, but could I be wrong? Take care, Rob. ==== ENG-DURHAM Mailing List ==== Browse the ENG-DURHAM archives http://archiver.rootsweb com/th/index/eng-durham

You are correct that it is an index which gives names, ages and birth town hence the reason, in this case, I stated that no birth town was shown. I do understand the differences between indices and the full census, all I was doing was passing on what information I have access to. In future I will state that it is only an index and only reply if no-one else has. Ian _________________________________________________________________ It's fast, it's easy and it's free. Get MSN Messenger today! http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger

"it is unusual for the time of birth to be included on an English birth cert. unless it was a multiple birth, e.g. twins - " You're kidding?!? So I'm possibly looking for TWO births?!? Oh crumbs, ONE was bad enough!! lol Thanks Ruth, I'll definitely keep that in mind, because it was definitely written down as "4h pm" on the certificate. I assumed it was meant to be something like 4 hours pm, but could I be wrong? Take care, Rob.

Just an observation Robyn - it is unusual for the time of birth to be included on an English birth cert. unless it was a multiple birth, e.g. twins - so that the elder can be identified (unless one is a boy in which case there was no need!!!!). Ruth Appleby Basse Normandie, France La.Retraite@tiscali.fr -------Original Message------- From: Robyn Leeds Date: 07/20/04 23:09:14 To: ENG-DURHAM-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [ENG-DUR] Elizabeth ARMSTRONG Hi everyone :) I have today received Elizabeth ARMSTRONG's birth certificate which states she was born at 4h pm (4pm does that mean?) on 14th May, 1848 at 46 Black Hill Benfieldside. John ARMSTRONG was an Iron Stone Miner, otherwise I already had all the other information. Does anyone on the list have access to the County Records Office, Durham City who would be good enough to do a lookup of the baptismal records for the Parish Church in Benfieldside for me please? I understand there should be a considerable amount of information listed under Elizabeth's baptism. I still haven't been able to find Dorothy WAUGH and John ARMSTRONG marrying anywhere in Durham, so this may be the breakthrough I've been waiting for. I just need to find someone good enough to do this for me. Any help would be immensely appreciated!! :D Take care, Rob. IBSSG Stuttgart, Germany Honey's Home of Genealogy www.honeyshome.com ==== ENG-DURHAM Mailing List ==== I.G.I. Family Search http://www.familysearch.org/ Public Record Office U.K http://www.pro.gov.uk

Hi Mandy Looks like 32 Lower Thames. Do you have the image? Murray Jones Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada ************************ 1891 Census Civil parish: Westoe Ecclesiastical parish: St Thomas County: Durham Street address: 32 Lower Thames St. Source information: RG12/4154 Registration district: South Shields Sub registration district: Westoe ED, institution, or vessel: 12 Folio: 120 Page: 42 Name / Age in 1891 / Birthplace / Relationship to head-of-house Rigby, John W 6 South Shields, Durham Son Rigby, Mary A 1 Gateshead, Durham Daughter Rigby, Millicent H 29 (Widow) Bingley, Yorkshire Head Charwoman Rigby, James 3 Liverpool, Lancashire Son ************************************* ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mandy Fenyvesi" <mommy23@shaw.ca> To: <ENG-DURHAM-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2004 4:07 PM Subject: [ENG-DUR] Introduction, RIGBY > Hi > I'm trying to track down information on my GGgrandparents. My GGgrandmother > was Millicent Hannah FLINTHAM (aka Ann) > who was born in Bingley Yks in 1861 and was raised in Cheltenham Gloucs. > Her mother died in 1878 and in 1881 I finally find her living in a home for > Friendless Girls in Caldewgate, Cumberland. At some point between the 1881 > census and the birth of her first child, she met and married William RIGBY. > I cannot find any marriage on the GRO, and have no idea where to look for > parish registers. I can't find a perfect match for William on the 1881 > census so far either, and don't know where he was born. > > In about 1885 their first son was born John William RIGBY in Durham, South > Shields. Second son, James RIGBY was born next in Liverpool, Lancs and > their final child, Mary Alice RIGBY was born in Gateshead Durham in Oct. of > 1889. On Mary Alice's birth certificate, her father, William RIGBY, > brickmaker is recorded as deceased. Her mother is going by the name of Ann > RIGBY on the birth certificate. > > Mary Alice was born just under 3 months after her father, William RIGBY > died. I found his death in Sunderland and I recently received the > certificate. It states that he was 38 years of age at the time of his death > (which puts his birth approx 1851) and describes him as "A Brick Maker > Journeyman of 8 Fox Street, Gateshead, Durham. He died on July fifteenth > 1889 in the Bishopswearmouth Infirmary, after an accident. The cause of > death reads "Injuries by accidental fall on highway and run over by wagon he > was driving. Lived 2 days after". The wife's name does not appear on the > certificate, but I'm quite sure this would have been my guy, because he was > alive in about Feb 1889 to conceive baby, and deceased by her birth in Oct. > 1889, and his address is given as Gateshead, where she was born not 3 months > later and on her birth certificate and his death certificate his occupation > is listed as Brickmaker. The informant on the death certificate is Crofton > Maynard, coroner for Easington Ward, Durham. Inquest held 16 July 1889. > The death was registered 17 July. > > By the 1891 census I find them living in Durham South Shields (Lower Thames > Street?) again. > Millicent H Rigby, a widow is 29 years old and a charwoman > John W., son is 6 born Durham S. Shields > James, son, is 3, born liverpool lancs > and Mary Alice age 1 is born Gateshead > > By 1901 she is married to a Richard Michell (b. in Cornwall, but I found him > married to someone else in 1881 in Sunderland) and living in Edmonton, > Middlesex (his daughter Susannah from the 1881 census is also in Middlesex > but not living with them. > > And that is my entire Durham connection as far as I know. Unless William > Rigby has family ties there that I haven't discovered yet. > > I am wondering if anyone has come across any of this family in their > research, and also I'm wondering if anyone can point me in the direction of > a newspaper that might contain details of William RIGBY's death. I"m in > Canada, so visiting an archive is pretty difficult, but if there was an > online resource for a paper in the right area, it would be a great help. > I've been informed that inquest records for that period are likely not in > existence any more. > > Thanks for reading this far! > > Mandy > Calgary, AB > > > > ==== ENG-DURHAM Mailing List ==== > Newbies' Guide to Genealogy & Family History > by ROY STOCKDILL > http://www.genuki.org.uk/gs/Newbie.html > >

Hi everyone :) I have today received Elizabeth ARMSTRONG's birth certificate which states she was born at 4h pm (4pm does that mean?) on 14th May, 1848 at 46 Black Hill Benfieldside. John ARMSTRONG was an Iron Stone Miner, otherwise I already had all the other information. Does anyone on the list have access to the County Records Office, Durham City who would be good enough to do a lookup of the baptismal records for the Parish Church in Benfieldside for me please? I understand there should be a considerable amount of information listed under Elizabeth's baptism. I still haven't been able to find Dorothy WAUGH and John ARMSTRONG marrying anywhere in Durham, so this may be the breakthrough I've been waiting for. I just need to find someone good enough to do this for me. Any help would be immensely appreciated!! :D Take care, Rob. IBSSG Stuttgart, Germany Honey's Home of Genealogy www.honeyshome.com

To find if she had a twin, you could look up the page number of the birth certificate you ordered and see if there is another ARMSTRONG birth there. Would give you a name possibly. Mandy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robyn Leeds" <honey@honeyshome.com> To: <ENG-DURHAM-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2004 3:25 PM Subject: Re: [ENG-DUR] Elizabeth ARMSTRONG > "it is unusual for the time of birth to be included on an English birth cert. unless it was a multiple birth, e.g. twins - " > > You're kidding?!? So I'm possibly looking for TWO births?!? Oh crumbs, ONE was bad enough!! lol Thanks Ruth, I'll definitely keep that in mind, because it was definitely written down as "4h pm" on the certificate. I assumed it was meant to be something like 4 hours pm, but could I be wrong? > > Take care, > > Rob. > > > ==== ENG-DURHAM Mailing List ==== > Browse the ENG-DURHAM archives http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/eng-durham >

Hi I'm trying to track down information on my GGgrandparents. My GGgrandmother was Millicent Hannah FLINTHAM (aka Ann) who was born in Bingley Yks in 1861 and was raised in Cheltenham Gloucs. Her mother died in 1878 and in 1881 I finally find her living in a home for Friendless Girls in Caldewgate, Cumberland. At some point between the 1881 census and the birth of her first child, she met and married William RIGBY. I cannot find any marriage on the GRO, and have no idea where to look for parish registers. I can't find a perfect match for William on the 1881 census so far either, and don't know where he was born. In about 1885 their first son was born John William RIGBY in Durham, South Shields. Second son, James RIGBY was born next in Liverpool, Lancs and their final child, Mary Alice RIGBY was born in Gateshead Durham in Oct. of 1889. On Mary Alice's birth certificate, her father, William RIGBY, brickmaker is recorded as deceased. Her mother is going by the name of Ann RIGBY on the birth certificate. Mary Alice was born just under 3 months after her father, William RIGBY died. I found his death in Sunderland and I recently received the certificate. It states that he was 38 years of age at the time of his death (which puts his birth approx 1851) and describes him as "A Brick Maker Journeyman of 8 Fox Street, Gateshead, Durham. He died on July fifteenth 1889 in the Bishopswearmouth Infirmary, after an accident. The cause of death reads "Injuries by accidental fall on highway and run over by wagon he was driving. Lived 2 days after". The wife's name does not appear on the certificate, but I'm quite sure this would have been my guy, because he was alive in about Feb 1889 to conceive baby, and deceased by her birth in Oct. 1889, and his address is given as Gateshead, where she was born not 3 months later and on her birth certificate and his death certificate his occupation is listed as Brickmaker. The informant on the death certificate is Crofton Maynard, coroner for Easington Ward, Durham. Inquest held 16 July 1889. The death was registered 17 July. By the 1891 census I find them living in Durham South Shields (Lower Thames Street?) again. Millicent H Rigby, a widow is 29 years old and a charwoman John W., son is 6 born Durham S. Shields James, son, is 3, born liverpool lancs and Mary Alice age 1 is born Gateshead By 1901 she is married to a Richard Michell (b. in Cornwall, but I found him married to someone else in 1881 in Sunderland) and living in Edmonton, Middlesex (his daughter Susannah from the 1881 census is also in Middlesex but not living with them. And that is my entire Durham connection as far as I know. Unless William Rigby has family ties there that I haven't discovered yet. I am wondering if anyone has come across any of this family in their research, and also I'm wondering if anyone can point me in the direction of a newspaper that might contain details of William RIGBY's death. I"m in Canada, so visiting an archive is pretty difficult, but if there was an online resource for a paper in the right area, it would be a great help. I've been informed that inquest records for that period are likely not in existence any more. Thanks for reading this far! Mandy Calgary, AB

Hi Keith Asuming these are yours in 1881 then there are some 1891 possibilities below. Take care. Murray Jones *************************** Household Record 1881 British Census Name RelationMarital StatusGenderAgeBirthplaceOccupationDisability Robert THORNTON Head M Male 63 Hartburn, Northumberland, England Furnace Man (Collier) Alice* THORNTON Wife M Female 53 Shields, Durham Thomas THORNTON Son W Male 25 Shields, Durham Mason George THORNTON Son U Male 17 Shields, Durham Mason Isabella THORNTON Daur U Female 14 Shields, Durham Scholar John** THORNTON Son U Male 10 Shields, Durham Scholar John THORNTON Grand Son Male 4 Washington, Durham Scholar * Could this be Mary A.F. in 1891 below? ** Could this be James in 1891 below? Source Information: Dwelling 25 Heckels St Census PlaceBoldon, Durham, England Family History Library Film 1342209 Public Records Office Reference RG11 Piece / Folio 5018 / 106 Page Number 43 ************************************* 1891 Census Civil parish: Harton Ecclesiastical parish: St Peter Village: Coldwell: County: Durham Street address: Not given Source information: RG12/4163 Registration district: South Shields Sub registration district: Westoe ED, institution, or vessel: 51 Folio: 29 Page: 30 NameAge in 1891BirthplaceRelationship to head-of-house Thornton, Thomas 35 South Shields, Durham Head Brick Layer Thornton, Emma J 34 Hook winchfield, Hampshire Wife Thornton, John 14 Washington, Durham Son Clerk (Railway Co.) Thornton, Robert 8 South Shields, Durham Son Thornton, Hannah M 6 South Shields, Durham Daughter Thornton, Thomas 3 South Shields, Durham Son Folio: 30 Page: 31 Thornton, Mary F 1 Coldwell, Durham Daughter ************************************ 1891 Census Civil parish: Westoe Ecclesiastical parish: St Michaels and All Angels County: Durham Street address: 30 & 28 Harnpden?? St Source information: RG12/4157 Registration district: South Shields Sub registration district: Westoe ED, institution, or vessel: 24 Folio: 69 Page: 51 Name / Age in 1891 / Birthplace / Relationship to head-of-house Thornton, Mary A F 62 Widow South Shields, Durham Head Thornton, George 28 South Shields, Durham Son Bricklayer Thornton, James 20 South Shields, Durham Son Joiner ************************************* --- Original Message ----- From: "dawn thornton" <dawn.thornton@sympatico.ca> To: <ENG-DURHAM-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2004 11:03 AM Subject: [ENG-DUR] Look up request > Would someone be kind enough to lookup in the 1881 census for me ? > > Robert & Alice Thornton at 25 Heckles St, Boldon Durham. > > I would like to know if others were living with them in the household. > > Many Thanks > > Keith Thornton > Ontario, Canada > > > ==== ENG-DURHAM Mailing List ==== > I.G.I. Family Search > http://www.familysearch.org/ > Public Record Office U.K > http://www.pro.gov.uk > >

The 1881 census is online at http://www.familysearch.org/ Regards, Anne in Canada ----- Original Message ----- From: "dawn thornton" <dawn.thornton@sympatico.ca> To: <ENG-DURHAM-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2004 1:03 PM Subject: [ENG-DUR] Look up request > Would someone be kind enough to lookup in the 1881 census for me ? > > Robert & Alice Thornton at 25 Heckles St, Boldon Durham. > > I would like to know if others were living with them in the household. > > Many Thanks > > Keith Thornton > Ontario, Canada > > > ==== ENG-DURHAM Mailing List ==== > I.G.I. Family Search > http://www.familysearch.org/ > Public Record Office U.K > http://www.pro.gov.uk >

Would someone be kind enough to lookup in the 1881 census for me ? Robert & Alice Thornton at 25 Heckles St, Boldon Durham. I would like to know if others were living with them in the household. Many Thanks Keith Thornton Ontario, Canada

1851 census for Easington gives: Edward 45 Catherine 40 Barbara 13 Edward 12 Joseph 8 There is no birth town shown for any of them. Ian >Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 12:35:03 -0700 (PDT) >From: Esther Henry <eehenry809@yahoo.com> >To: ENG-DURHAM-L@rootsweb.com >Message-ID: <20040718193503.29192.qmail@web21321.mail.yahoo.com> >Subject: 1851 census >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > >Could someone do a lookup for me in the 1851 census. >My ggg-grandfather Joseph Cockburn was born Shotton, >Durham in 1843. I don't know any of his siblings. >Think I have a match for his parents Edmund and >Catherine Cockburn but need to confirm with the 1851 >census. They were married in Tynemouth in 1836. Do >know that Catherine was born in Scotland. Sure would >appreciate any help in making this connection. >Esther > > > >__________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. >http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail _________________________________________________________________ It's fast, it's easy and it's free. Get MSN Messenger today! http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger

In a message dated 19/07/2004 09:43:27 GMT Daylight Time, ianrsn70@hotmail.com writes: 1851 census for Easington gives: Edward 45 Catherine 40 Barbara 13 Edward 12 Joseph 8 There is no birth town shown for any of them. . If this is all the information you have obtained from "the 1851 census", then I strongly suspect that you have not looked at the census enumerators' notebooks at all but at an index to it. Researchers must understand the difference between an index and the actual records! Those who do not will (a) find the going very hard indeed and (b) will not get far with their "researches". Think of your index finger: it is the one you use to point at things. An index is a pointer as to where you should be looking for the full details and is no substitute for the details themselves. By consulting the original notebooks (ie microfilm facsimiles of them) you should have obtained: . The piece number The folio number The page number (but that is of little or no importance) The schedule number The Enumeration District number (again, of little importance) The address The full name of each person The marital status of all adults The ages of each person The occupation of all those who had one The place (typically the county followed by the parish) of birth of each person Whether they were "Blind, Deaf & Dumb or an Imbecile" or some such set of phrases. Their relationships to the Head of the household. . In addition by consulting the material at the beginning of each enumeration district you should get a description of the scope of that District, plus the formal statement of which civil parish, ecclesiastical parish, Town or Borough, Parliamentary Division, Poor Law Union, Registration District and Sub-District etc, the place came under, all of which could later be helpful when tracking down the location of other records of that place. . True, here and there some details may have been omitted by a less-than-conscientous enumerator, but no Superintendent Registrar would have signed off a notebook with only names and ages in it! . Am I being pedantic? Yes, probably, but being pedantic, being meticulous and knowing the meaning of terms so that one only uses them correctly, are all things which are absolute requirements if one's research is to have any value at all. That applies in any field of research, not only family history of course. . Geoff Nicholson . 57 Manor Park, Concord, WASHINGTON, Tyne & Wear NE37 2BU Long-established Professional Genealogist: ask for details of NBL/DUR family history research by THE local expert, working for YOU.

Could someone do a lookup for me in the 1851 census. My ggg-grandfather Joseph Cockburn was born Shotton, Durham in 1843. I don't know any of his siblings. Think I have a match for his parents Edmund and Catherine Cockburn but need to confirm with the 1851 census. They were married in Tynemouth in 1836. Do know that Catherine was born in Scotland. Sure would appreciate any help in making this connection. Esther __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail

Dear Listers I have found my great.great-grandfather, John DIXON, aged 23yrs, in the 1851 census for Stockton and in the 1871 census for Hartlepool aged 43yrs and married to Hannah with children, John, Mary, Watson, Margaret, Benjamin and Jane. Mary and Watson were both born in Stockton, 1860 and 1862, so I presume they are there for the 1861 census. Does anyone have access to the 1861 census for Stockton and would kindly do a lookup for me? Kind Regards Mary Hart Australia mhart@iinet.net.au

Looking for descendants of James Haddon TAYLOR and Ada(h) COCHRANE, Westoe, Durham - he was born in Costessey, Norfolk. Al Dawson, Iowa City, Iowa - MA, History, UNC-Chapel Hill, 1973 Visit my website at:  www.familytreemaker.com/users/d/a/w/Al--Dawson/ Ancestor Birthday: Tilitha Cumi Easterday, July 16, 1869, Crawford County, Ohio. Source: "The Lowell Ledger" (Kent County, Michigan) Jan 21, 1937.

Can anyone tell me if Lynn Street Chapel, West Hartlepool, is still there. I have just found a scrap of paper written by my father with this information on, its where my Grandmother Jane Stather was baptised in 1889/90 Thank you Patricia Clews BROCKLEBANK: Cumberland, Winlaton Durham, Dalton in Furness, Westmorland. STATHER: Barnsley Yorks, Northcave Yorks and West Hartlepool. WARD: Barnsley MURPHY: Egremont Cumberland, Ireland!

Dear Listers My great-grandmother's sister's occupation in the 1901 census for West Hartlepool, is "filler, jam factory'. Would someone know the name and address of the jam factory please? Was there more than one factory? If no factory in West Hartlepool at that time, where would the nearest one have been? Mary Hart Australia mhart@iinet.net.au