Hi I wonder if anyone can help me I have a ISAAC.R. WESTGARTH D.O.B. ABT 1855 in Newcastle Northumberland. Parents are HARRISON & ANN. He married an ELIZABETH in 1875 in DURHAM. I can find him on the 1871 census living at home with his parents aged 16. On the 1891 census he is married to ELIZABETH and they have three children the eldest being DAVID D.O.B ABT 1880 born in Newcastle. My problem is I cannot find them anywhere on the 1881 CENSUS any help to locate them would be much appreciated. Thank you. Jan.

In a message dated 10/05/2007 17:55:07 GMT Daylight Time, [email protected] writes: see the entry under "native" in any standard English Dictionary (eg the Concise Oxford). ______________________________________________________________________________ "A person born in a specified place, region, or country, whether subsequently resident there or not" Oxford English Dictionary. Regards Stan Mapstone

Hi Bev "native of Holwick" merely refers to the fact that he was living in Holwick at the time of the baptism. Does the marriage record say the same thing? If he married in the bride's parish, it may indicate where he was from. Anyway, he wasn't baptized in Middleton, so the next obvious thing is to check the neighbouring parishes. If you use ParLoc, you should ne able to find all the neighbouring parishes. http://parloc.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk I notice a member submission on IGI for a John HODGSON bap 1774 in "Raby, Durham" - which I would assume means in Staindrop parish (but who knows with member submissions?). I would check out this baptism by looking at the actual records - the Staindrop records on IGI for that period don't include this one, though. However, there are several John HODGSON possibles for c.1774 in there. Hope this helps Mike > My 2xg grandfather John Hodgson was (according to the age shown on his > death certificate in 1850) born c 1774. He married on 12 June 1800 at > Middleton in Teesdale. The parish records of the baptism of some of his > children at MIT refer to him as "miner and ore carrier, native of Holwick" > but I have so far been unsuccessful in discovering anything further about > his origin. Would the phrase used indicate he was born in Holwick? I > looked for a baptism record in Romaldkirk parish records but did not find > anything. Would be grateful if anyone could suggest other possible > sources to follow up. > > Bev in Brisbane.

In a message dated 10/05/2007 14:16:20 GMT Daylight Time, [email protected] writes: "native of Holwick" merely refers to the fact that he was living in Holwick at the time of the baptism. NO! NO!! NO!!! "Native of" somewhere means "born there". It says nothing at all about where, or whether, he was baptised, nor about where else he may have lived at any other time of his life. However, "NATIVE of" always means "born there". This is not a point of genealogical nor, in general, historical, research, but a simple application of the English language - see the entry under "native" in any standard English Dictionary (eg the Concise Oxford). Birthplaces and baptism places in the Holwick district of Teesdale will be complicated by the parishes south of the Tees having been part of the North Riding of Yorkshire, and of the Diocese of York, at the time in question. Also, apart from surrounding Durham and Yorkshire Church of England parishes, note that Teesdale, as well as having the Methodist Chapels often to be found in mining districts, both coal mining and, as here, lead mining, also was a centre of Quaker activity. Geoff Nicholson

Thanks, Michael. I have searched Stannington registers but had not thought to look at Horton. Pamela ----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2007 4:33 AM Subject: Re: [ENG-DURHAM] Ann Tinkler Hetton-le-Hole > Pamela, > > Plessy/Plessey lay within the parish of Stannington ( and very close to > the > boundary with Horton parish). > > Have you searched these parishes for baptism of Elizabeth Holland ? > > Michael Dixon

Hello All I wonder if some one can throw some light on a possible birthplace I have a Relative born 1840 ish whose Birth and Baptism I cant find, his name is John Robson, on the 1851 Census for Sunderland as Follows John Robson age 11 Born Sunderland Margaret age 10 Born Sunderland Armstrong age 8 born Hetton-Le- Hole I dont have John's Details but I have the birth Reg's of Margaret and Armstrong this what I find odd, on Margaret's birth cert it say's born in Hetton-Le- Hole 11th Oct 1841, Armstrongs birth cert is Sept 1843 also at Hetton. why Have the parents said that Margaret was born in Sunderland when the birth cert says Hetton, and yet they have given the correct birthplace on Armstrong. Can I assume that John and Margaret were both born in Hetton, as this is vital to my search for John. Hope someone can help. Regards Allan Robson -- Message sent with Supanet E-mail http://www.Tpad.com - "The New Way to Make and Receive Cheap/Free Calls"

Pamela, Plessy/Plessey lay within the parish of Stannington ( and very close to the boundary with Horton parish). Have you searched these parishes for baptism of Elizabeth Holland ? Michael Dixon

Thomas Mason Brotherton d.o.b. 1844, son of Thomas Mason Brotherton and Ann Johnson who were married 22nd. Dec. 1842 at Stockton. I am trying to confirm that Thomas married a Mary Ann Brunton, d.o.b. 1848 born Counden, Durham, England. Any information would be greatly appreciated - especially date of marriage. Thank you, Joyce Harnby - [email protected]

Sorry to bother you again, but can anyone please find out if William Thornton and Jessie Gibson had a daughter Margaret b1871/72 and a son George b 1869/70 in South Shields or indeed any others born in South Shields. George may not have lived longer than a year or so. The reason I ask is that there is a gap in the family from 1863 to 1875 and I have just found that there was a son James b1870 died 1872. Margaret survived and returned to marry in Scotland. Was there an outbreak of typhus or anything at that time in the area that may have resulted in the children dying young? Any help in tracing the family of William and Jessie that were born in the South Shields area would be much appreciated. Many thanks Richard

Thank you very much Geoff. I had searched the Hetton records some years ago, but at the time I believed Ann Tinkler's name to be Sinclair, a misreading you surmised. I had hoped I missed the baptism for that reason, but no such luck. I suspect the family were nonconformists, as her mother's baptism (Elizabeth Holland c.1800), supposedly in Plessy, Northumberland, has also proven elusive. I appreciate the help, as well as the clue that Sunderland is a likely place to search. Pamela ----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2007 10:34 PM Subject: Re: [ENG-DURHAM] Ann Tinkler Hetton-le-Hole > > In a message dated 07/05/2007 01:54:34 GMT Daylight Time, > [email protected] writes: > > Ann TINKLER (TINCLAIR) was born in Hetton between 1830 and 1833, > according > to the 1841, 1851, and 1861 censuses and her death certificate from 1863. > > > > > Pamela: > > She was not baptised at Hetton le Hole 1832-1839 inclusive, > either as Tinkler, Tinklair or Sinclair (a likely mis-reading of > Tinclair - or > vice-versa!). Perhaps the family were non-C of E, in which case you > could > check Houghton le Spring RC or any of the Methodist, Presbyterian or > Independent > churches in Sunderland/Bishopwearmouth. One of my own ancestral > families, > although living at Houghton le Spring at that time, used an Independent > church > in Sunderland, and I know they were not the only ones. > > Geoff Nicholson > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Information wanted on decendents of these families, Raymond Kelly 1851: 25 Brewery Bank?, Newcastle-upon-Tyne, Byker Parish, Northumberland Co, England Registration district: Newcastle Upon Tyne Film: HO107/2408, Enumeration District: 2a, Folio: 125, Page: 79 Charles Miller...head...27...Newcastle...................rope maker Ann Miller.........wife...24...Harley, Staffordshire Margaret Miller...dau....5...Newcastle....................scholar Joseph Miller.....son....3...Newcastle 1861: Ballast Hills, Mordues Building, Newcastle-on-Tyne, Byker Parish, Northumberland Co, England Registration district: Newcastle Upon Tyne Film: RG9/3832, Enumeration District: 3, Folio: 56, Page: 12 Charles Millar....head....37...Newcastle-on-Tyne...boiler maker Ann Millar..........wife....35....Staffordshire Margaret Millar...dau....15....Newcastle-on-Tyne Joseph Millar......son...13....Newcastle-on-Tyne...scholar Ann Millar...........dau....8....Newcastle-on-Tyne...scholar James Millar.......son....6....Newcastle-on-Tyne...scholar John Millar..........son....4....Newcastle-on-Tyne...scholar Mary Millar..........dau....1....Newcastle-on-Tyne 1871: Stepney Street, Byker, Northumberland Co, England Registration district: Newcastle Upon Tyne Film: RG10/, Enumeration District: 4, Folio: 113, Page: 81 Charles Miller....head...47...Newcastle.......................boiler smith Ann Miller..........wife...44...Harley, Staffordshire Ann Miller..........dau...18...Newcastle........................pottery girl James Miller......son...16...Newcastle........................rivetter John Miller.........son...13...Newcastle........................rivetter Mary Miller.........dau...11...Newcastle.......................scholar Charles Miller.....son.....8...Newcastle.......................scholar Jabez Miller........son....4...Newcastle.......................scholar 1881: 110 Clifford St, Newcastle, Byker Parish, Northumberland Co, England Registration district: Newcastle Upon Tyne Film: RG11/5068, Enumeration District: 15, Folio: 12, Page: 15 Charles Miller....head...57...Newcastle...boiler maker Peter Miller........son.....9...Newcastle....scholar 1881: 35 Nelson St, Gateshead, Durham Co, England Registration district: Gateshead Film: RG11/5036, Enumeration District: 29, Folio: 141, Page: 1 Robert McColloch.............head.........40...........Ireland..............engine fitter Margaret McColloch...........wife..........35...Newcastle-on-Tyne Jabez Miller...............brother-in-law....14...Newcastle-on-Tyne...scholar 1891: 16 Wilfred Street, Newcastle on Tyne, Byker Parish, Northumberland Co, England Registration district: Newcastle Upon Tyne Film: RG12/4214, Enumeration District: 10, Folio: 35, Page: 18 Charles Miller....head...67...Newcastle Ann Miller..........wife...64... Peter Miller........son...19...Newcastle Marriage Registration Index: Name: Charles Miller Spouse: Ann Povey Year of Registration: 1845 Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun DISTRICT: Newcastle Upon Tyne County: Northumberland Volume: 25 Page: 347 Birth Registration Index: Name: Charles Miller Year of Registration: 1862 Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun DISTRICT: Newcastle Upon Tyne County: Northumberland Volume: 10b Page: _05 Death Registration Index: Name: Ann Miller Estimated birth year: abt 1827 Year of Registration: 1899 Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar Age at Death: 72 DISTRICT: Newcastle Upon Tyne County: Northumberland Volume: 10b Page: 66 Death Registration Index: Name: Charles Miller Estimated birth year: abt 1823 Year of Registration: 1901 Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec Age at Death: 78 DISTRICT: Newcastle Upon Tyne County: Northumberland Volume: 10b Page: 118

In a message dated 07/05/2007 14:28:45 GMT Daylight Time, [email protected] writes: Was there an outbreak of typhus or anything at that time in the area that may have resulted in the children dying young? ______________________________________________________________________________ _ Infant mortality was high throughout the nineteenth century. In the period 1874 to 1900 my grandfather and his three brothers, in Sunderland, had 34 children, between them, of whom 21 died in infancy. Regards Stan Mapstone

To Makayla from Yorkshire Hi - I have ROBINSON and MUSGRAVE in my family. Robert MUSGRAVE m. Isabella ROBINSON in Kelloe, DUR in 1854 and they came to Australia in 1862. Would love to know more about Isabella's family as vaguely know her father was Andrew and mother Isabella ? McDOUGAL. Do we have anyone in common? My email is [email protected] Thanks Meegan

In a message dated 07/05/2007 01:54:34 GMT Daylight Time, [email protected] writes: Ann TINKLER (TINCLAIR) was born in Hetton between 1830 and 1833, according to the 1841, 1851, and 1861 censuses and her death certificate from 1863. Pamela: She was not baptised at Hetton le Hole 1832-1839 inclusive, either as Tinkler, Tinklair or Sinclair (a likely mis-reading of Tinclair - or vice-versa!). Perhaps the family were non-C of E, in which case you could check Houghton le Spring RC or any of the Methodist, Presbyterian or Independent churches in Sunderland/Bishopwearmouth. One of my own ancestral families, although living at Houghton le Spring at that time, used an Independent church in Sunderland, and I know they were not the only ones. Geoff Nicholson

In a message dated 06/05/2007 20:20:27 GMT Daylight Time, [email protected] writes: I would be much obliged if anyone could please have a look in the 1871 census for Durham (don't know area) for my great grandfather and his family. "Durham" can mean either "Co Durham" or "Durham City" but since you say you don't know the area then I have to assume you mean "somewhere in Co Durham". Given that the population of Co Durham in 1871 was 685,045 and that only a very small part is covered by purchaseable indexes (booklets, microfiche, CD etc), that would be a massive job. Your best bet would be to use a pay-per-view site such as Ancestry.com where you will find a searcheable on-line version of the census. My only warning about doing that is that it does contain inaccuracies and mis-transcriptions so whatever you find must be confirmed from the actual records (microfilm of the enumerators' notebooks) before you really believe it! Geoff Nicholson

Thank you very much for all the kind help and info that I received in my search for my Thornton rellies. Special thanks to Linda, Joe and Ken for the info sent. This trully is a great, friendly and helpful List. All the best for now Richard Stoddart in Brora, North Scotland

Hi All, I have just joined the list as I have found that some of my THORNTON family were in Durham in and around 1871. I would be much obliged if anyone could please have a look in the 1871 census for Durham (don't know area) for my great grandfather and his family. There should be William Thornton b1844, wife Jessie b1845 and children Mary Guild Thornton b1863, Robert b1865, Ann b1867, David b1868 and maybe others. They were all born in Angus or Forfar county in Scotland. I have no idea what they were doing in Durham but were back in Angus, Scotland before 1881. Hopefully someone has access to the 1871 census and would be willing to look for me. Many thanks, All the best Richard

There is an 1861 census that might be your Musgrove family RG9/3697 folio 54 page 18 Chilton Colliery Village Robert Musgrove, Head, Mar 28, Coalminer, Durham Hartburn Isabella Musgrove, Wife, Mar 28, Hatmaker, Scotland Isabella Musgrove, Daur, 5, Durham Kelloe Robert A Musgrove, Son, 3, Durham Kelloe Both Robert and Isabella Robinson were recorded as age 22 on their marriage record at Kelloe St. Helen When Isabella, the daughter, was born they were living in Cold Knuckles (Coxhoe). She was baptised 28 Aug 1855, duar of Robert Musgrove, pitman, and Isabella. I looked on the Scotland GRO website but couldn't find her baptism.

Hi Janis Yes, Isabella has been a bit of a problem. Seems she may have been born in Carmichael but can't find anything about her or her parents. Assume they moved to Durham from Scotland - another interesting woman to chase up! Thanks for that info. I didn't have the information about Isabella's baptism - where did you find that please? Hadn't heard/seen Coxhoe called Cold Knuckles before - interesting! Thanks again Meegan

Ann TINKLER (TINCLAIR) was born in Hetton between 1830 and 1833, according to the 1841, 1851, and 1861 censuses and her death certificate from 1863. Her parents were Andrew and Elizabeth Tinkler. Hetton parish baptismal records begin in Novermber 1832 but don't yet appear in any of the sources I checked. I have searched the Houghton-le-Springs parish records and her baptism is not recorded there. If anyone can help with a baptism from Hetton-le-Hole I would be most grateful. Pamela Huddleston Honolulu, Hawaii