In a message dated 15/05/2007 08:30:41 GMT Daylight Time, [email protected] writes: My Cumbrian ancestral relatives sailed from Liverpool to AUS and USA - from which ports would my North Eastern relatives have sailed - say - 1870? I very rarely read anything about migrants from the NE and I know there were many! Thanks Ann Ann: You can see from a map that for anyone setting out to sail across the Atlantic, Liverpool - or London, Southampton or Bristol - is a much better place to start from than anywhere in the NE of England. The journey is so much shorter, and therefore quicker and cheaper. By 1870 there was a good railway system throughout the country (more or less) and so Liverpool was comparatively easy for anyione to reach, especially if they were coming from an industrial region where the need for lots of mineral railways meant that a good passenger network had also developed. There were a handful of sailings from the NE but that literally is all. Often they were newly-built emigrant ships making their maiden voyages, later voyages being made from other ports. Geoff Nicholson

Hi Nivard, I don't know why 'art' has been added by the census clerk extracting occupational details, he would be aware of 'coal trimmers' in the NE. However in the 'Dictionary of Occupational Terms' there are fifty different categories of 'trimmer', including six various 'coal trimmers'! Regards Stan Mapstone

In a message dated 15/05/2007 08:30:54 GMT Daylight Time, [email protected] writes: My Cumbrian ancestral relatives sailed from Liverpool to AUS and USA - from which ports would my North Eastern relatives have sailed - say - 1870? I very rarely read anything about migrants from the NE and I know there were many! ______________________________________________________________________ Between 1815 and 1929, 11.4 million people left Britain for overseas destinations, part of a European wide phenomenon. Liverpool was the primary port for emigration, some 60% of emigrants set out from there. An advertisement in the 'Sunderland Weekly Echo and Times' of Friday 22nd. June 1883 gives an example of what was available. Allan Line Royal Mail Steamers to the United States and Canada from Liverpool. Hanoverian, for Quebec, June 18. Hibernian, for Halifax and Baltimore, June 19. Peruvian, for Quebec, June 21. Nestorian, for Quebec, June 21. Austrian, for Boston, June 28. Sarmatian, for Quebec, June 28. Caspian, for Halifax and Baltimore, July 3. Parisian, for Quebec, July 5. OCEAN RATES. Saloon, 12 to 21 Guineas; Intermediate 8 pounds; Steerage 4 pounds 4 shillings. Through tickets at special rates to Chicago, and to all points in the Western States and Canada. Note; The best, quickest, and cheapest route for Manitoba and the Great North West is by the Mail Steamers of this Line. Assisted Passages to Halifax are granted to General Labourers, Mechanics &c., for 4 pounds, and to Agriculturists, Agricultural Labourers, and Female Domestic Servants for 3 pounds; and Through to the Inland Points in Canada at Special Rates. Passengers landing at Quebec and going inland are accompanied on the Railway by the Company's special conductor. Full particulars on application to ALLAN BROTHERS & Co., James Street, Liverpool. Regards Stan Mapstone

My Cumbrian ancestral relatives sailed from Liverpool to AUS and USA - from which ports would my North Eastern relatives have sailed - say - 1870? I very rarely read anything about migrants from the NE and I know there were many! Thanks Ann

Hi Stan I did say "if" :-) he could be described as such I could not think of another obvious abbreviation, there may be something more suitable (and probably is) For what its worth, his fathers occupation in 1851 is "Coal Trimmer" of Keelmans Row, Willington Quay , John was then described as a Waterman Interestingly if you search for Trimmer Art you get 16 hits, the majority in Durham / NBL, one in Leicestershire is described fully as a "Trimmer" (Artizan) (Glen Parva Barracks) Perhaps there is a crossover of the enumerators interpretation of "Trimmer" (and or Artisan?) Whats needed it to find him in census before 1881 Best wishes Nivard Ovington, in Cornwall (UK) > I wondered if its an abbreviation for Artisan ? (although if a trimmer > could > be described as such I do not know?) > > ________________________________________________________________ > > > Artisan; One who is employed in any of the industrial arts; a mechanic, > handicraftsman, artificer. On the same page is Moulder (art), so I don't > think > it likely he was a coal trimmer. > > Regards Stan Mapstone

Hi Janet Looking at the enumerators page you will see that the "Art" after Trimmer is added in another hand (most likely the statistician compiling information from the census. The same hand has added the same after some other occupations on the same pages, not sure what it signifies, I have come across several short hand versions on various census pages that do not appear in the official notes I wondered if its an abbreviation for Artisan ? (although if a trimmer could be described as such I do not know?) Trimmer in this case probably refers to a Coal Trimmer onboard ship (this may also give a clue to his whereabouts in previous census?) as I understand it he, with others would move coal about the hold of the ship to keep it evenly balanced What is the census ref for the 1851 with his parents? I do not see a John b1821 Willington Quay with parents William & Jane Best wishes Nivard Ovington, in Cornwall (UK) > Hi > Can anyone help me with a problem I have a > JOHN WESTGARTH D.O.B. ABT 1821 > Parents WILLIAM & JANE > on the 1851 census he is at home living with his parents > then he disappears. > He then turns up on the 1881 census living in UNION WORKHOUSE occupation > TRIMMER ART could anyone explain the above to me also any information on > where he could have been for 30 years > Thank you > Jan

HELP WANTED is not a description of anything. You may get more response if what your looking for is in the Subject line. I may miss out on something, but I don't look at them. Frustrated

Hi Jan Could this be their marriage? WESTGARTH John to CURREY Mary Hannah June quarter 1880 at Auckland district 10 a 249 1891: 95 Lower Lime Street?, Middlesborough, Yorkshire John WESTGARTH head mar 33 Roller Ironworks b. Northumberland, Maceborn?? Mary H wife 33 b. Stanhope, Durham Eunice daur 17 milner's apprentice b. Consett, Durham John R son 5 b. Middlesbro, Yorks Mirab daur 3 b. do 1881: 37 Edward Street, Bishop Auckland, Durham John WESTGARTH head mar 24 Iron Worker b. Northumberland Mary H wife 25 b. Frosterley, Durham Unice daur 7 scholar b. Consett, Durham Thomas HALL visitor 4 b. Crook, Durham Would you not think that Eunice was born before they married/ was possibly of another relationship? I found the following: Eunice Wilson CURREY born December quarter 1873 Durham district 10a 388 Hope this is of some use to you. Cheers Louise ----- Original Message ----- From: "Janet Hasler" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Monday, May 14, 2007 7:02 PM Subject: [ENG-DURHAM] HELP WANTED > Hi > I wonder if anyone can help me I have a > JOHN WESTGARTH D.O.B. ABT 1856 > his parents were HARRISON & ANN > I believe he married a MARY H > and they had 4 children > UNICE born in DURHAM > JOHN,MERAB and GEORGE born in YORKSHIRE > I wonder if anyone could confirm the marriage for me and any information > such as year and place. > Thank you > Jan > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.467 / Virus Database: 269.7.0/803 - Release Date: 13/05/2007 > 12:17 >

Hi Can anyone help me with a problem I have a JOHN WESTGARTH D.O.B. ABT 1821 Parents WILLIAM & JANE on the 1851 census he is at home living with his parents then he disappears. He then turns up on the 1881 census living in UNION WORKHOUSE occupation TRIMMER ART could anyone explain the above to me also any information on where he could have been for 30 years Thank you Jan

Hi I wonder if anyone can help me I have a JOHN WESTGARTH D.O.B. ABT 1856 his parents were HARRISON & ANN I believe he married a MARY H and they had 4 children UNICE born in DURHAM JOHN,MERAB and GEORGE born in YORKSHIRE I wonder if anyone could confirm the marriage for me and any information such as year and place. Thank you Jan

Hello listers. I am having great difficulty in finding baptism details for several HAMILTON children born in the Bolden (Co Durham) or Newcastle areas in 1820-26. The family had moved down to this area from West Lothian a little earlier ( father was a skinner) and I suppose the children might have been baptised( and/or in some cases buried ?) in a Scottish church in the area. Does anyone know whether there were Scottish churches in this area at that time, and if so where I might find baptism/burial records ? Ian

Hi Everyone. How are you. I was wondering if you can help me please. I have a Anne HEDWORTH that was born in 1616 at Whickham, Durham England. She married my 8th great grandfather James Harrison on the 12 Jun 1631 at Whickham, Durham England. The thing is that I have no info on my 8th great grandmother Anne parents. Please help. >From Annette.

In a message dated 14/05/2007 21:14:19 GMT Daylight Time, [email protected] writes: I wondered if its an abbreviation for Artisan ? (although if a trimmer could be described as such I do not know?) ________________________________________________________________ Artisan; One who is employed in any of the industrial arts; a mechanic, handicraftsman, artificer. On the same page is Moulder (art), so I don't think it likely he was a coal trimmer. Regards Stan Mapstone

In a message dated 14/05/2007 19:37:40 GMT Standard Time, [email protected] writes: Hi Can anyone help me with a problem I have a JOHN WESTGARTH D.O.B. ABT 1821 Parents WILLIAM & JANE on the 1851 census he is at home living with his parents then he disappears. He then turns up on the 1881 census living in UNION WORKHOUSE occupation TRIMMER ART could anyone explain the above to me also any information on where he could have been for 30 years Thank you Jan If you are using Ancestry.com for the censuses it might be worth trying alternative spellings of the surname - it could easily have been misspelt either on the original image or in the transcription. I get a lot of that on Ancestry, useful though it is. Are the parents still alive in 1861 or 1871? -- Mike Stone - Peterborough, England For the strength of the Hills we bless, thee, Our God, our fathers' God. Thou hast made thy children mighty, By the touch of the mountain sod. Thou hast led thy chosen Israel, To freedom's last abode. For the strength of the hills we bless, thee, Our God, our fathers' God. (Hymns of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints; No 35)

In a message dated 14/05/2007 19:03:19 GMT Standard Time, [email protected] writes: Hi I wonder if anyone can help me I have a JOHN WESTGARTH D.O.B. ABT 1856 his parents were HARRISON & ANN I believe he married a MARY H and they had 4 children UNICE born in DURHAM JOHN,MERAB and GEORGE born in YORKSHIRE I wonder if anyone could confirm the marriage for me and any information such as year and place. Thank you Jan Dear Jan FreeBMD has a marriage in JUN1880 for a John Westgarth and a Mary Hannah CURREY in Auckland 10a 249. Does that match up with the eldest child's age? Cheers -- Mike Stone - Peterborough, England For the strength of the Hills we bless, thee, Our God, our fathers' God. Thou hast made thy children mighty, By the touch of the mountain sod. Thou hast led thy chosen Israel, To freedom's last abode. For the strength of the hills we bless, thee, Our God, our fathers' God. (Hymns of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints; No 35)

In a message dated 14/05/2007 19:01:34 GMT Daylight Time, [email protected] writes: Does anyone know whether there were Scottish churches in this area at that time, and if so where I might find baptism/burial records ? ______________________________________________________ Hi Ian, See http://www.tyneandweararchives.org.uk/pdf/userguide04.pdf for the Presbyterian and Congregational church records they have. Regards Stan Mapstone

In a message dated 14/05/2007 09:22:04 GMT Daylight Time, [email protected] writes: I have a Anne HEDWORTH that was born in 1616 at Whickham, Durham England. She married my 8th great grandfather James Harrison on the 12 Jun 1631 at Whickham, Durham England. The thing is that I have no info on my 8th great grandmother Anne parents. Given that the great County Historian, Robert Surtees, in his "History of the County Palatine of Durham" had to admit to not being able to properly trace, or connect together, all the various major branches of the once-widespread Hedworths, I doubt whether we will be able to add much to what he did manage to do! It appears that in Whickham parish there were "working" Hedworths in the early and mid-17th century, as well as land-owning ones, two having been killed in coal pits in the 1650s. Nevertheless, we should bear in mind that both Ryton Woodside and Harraton, in each of which there were established Hedworth families as land-owners, are within a few miles of Whickham parish. The most significant link between the Hedworths and the Harrisons seems to be the marriage, about 1594, of John Hedworth (son and heir of Robert Hedworth of Ryton Woodside, gent) and Isabel Harrison (daughter of William Harrison of Byermoor), to whom he was her first husband. No issue is mentioned of this marriage in Surtees' pedigree of "Harrison of Byermoor and Brian's Leap" (under Whickham parish), but in his pedigree of "Hedworth of Ryton Woodside" (under Ryton parish) he records three children, John, William and Elizabeth - but no Anne. I have not looked at the IGI, aka the "Family Search" (LDS) web-site, but if you have not already done so, that would be a good idea, remembering that all these places are close to Newcastle, which is included for IGI purposes along with Northumberland, so that county should be searched together with Co Durham. You could also try searching for, and in, any Hedworth and/or Harrison Wills of the period. I assume you have already had access to the registers themselves, or to facsimiles of them, and so you will know whether any of the material leading up to this connection states addresses, occupations or any other information not usually to be found in transcripts and indexes. The Surtees Society volumes on the Newcastle Hostmen and Merchant Adventurers, among others, may also shed some light on those land-owning families - if indeed they are yours! Geoff Nicholson

Hi Geoff I know what it is supposed to mean. But, just like a later marriage certificate may give the name of the father of the bride/groom, we can never be certain that the person so named is actually the father. Take it from me, I have had this problem in my tree on more than one occasion with "native of." being 'wrong' (and not by a short distance either). Yours respectfully Mike _____ From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 5:52 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [ENG-DURHAM] Looking for John Hodgson "native of Holwick" In a message dated 10/05/2007 14:16:20 GMT Daylight Time, [email protected] writes: "native of Holwick" merely refers to the fact that he was living in Holwick at the time of the baptism. NO! NO!! NO!!! "Native of" somewhere means "born there". It says nothing at all about where, or whether, he was baptised, nor about where else he may have lived at any other time of his life. However, "NATIVE of" always means "born there". This is not a point of genealogical nor, in general, historical, research, but a simple application of the English language - see the entry under "native" in any standard English Dictionary (eg the Concise Oxford). Birthplaces and baptism places in the Holwick district of Teesdale will be complicated by the parishes south of the Tees having been part of the North Riding of Yorkshire, and of the Diocese of York, at the time in question. Also, apart from surrounding Durham and Yorkshire Church of England parishes, note that Teesdale, as well as having the Methodist Chapels often to be found in mining districts, both coal mining and, as here, lead mining, also was a centre of Quaker activity. Geoff Nicholson

Hi Jan, how does this fit in ? RG11 5052, Folio 21, Page 35 92, Mill lane Shop, Elswick Northumberland. Isaac R Westgarth, head, 26, model maker at engine works, Newcastle on Tyne Elizabeth, wife, 23, Newcastle on Tyne David, son, 1, Newcastle on Tyne http://www.tribalpages.com/tribes/jo14 I use Archive CD Books to do my family history research http://www.archivecdbooks.org/ http://www.british-genealogy.com/forums/index.php?referrerid=18 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Janet Hasler" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 9:50 PM Subject: [ENG-DURHAM] HELP WANTED > Hi > I wonder if anyone can help me I have a > ISAAC.R. WESTGARTH D.O.B. ABT 1855 in Newcastle Northumberland. > Parents are HARRISON & ANN. > He married an ELIZABETH in 1875 in DURHAM. > I can find him on the 1871 census living at home with his parents aged 16. > On the 1891 census he is married to ELIZABETH and they have three children > the eldest being > DAVID D.O.B ABT 1880 born in Newcastle. > My problem is I cannot find them anywhere on the > 1881 CENSUS any help to locate them would be much appreciated. > Thank you. > Jan. > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

My 2xg grandfather John Hodgson was (according to the age shown on his death certificate in 1850) born c 1774. He married on 12 June 1800 at Middleton in Teesdale. The parish records of the baptism of some of his children at MIT refer to him as "miner and ore carrier, native of Holwick" but I have so far been unsuccessful in discovering anything further about his origin. Would the phrase used indicate he was born in Holwick? I looked for a baptism record in Romaldkirk parish records but did not find anything. Would be grateful if anyone could suggest other possible sources to follow up. Bev in Brisbane.