This is a retry after 12 months searching, & I'm hoping Geoff will be able to help this Geordie in Oz. My 3Ggrandfather Edward Ross married Elizabeth Oliver on 13/2/1816. He was born in Benton in 1788. All info that I've paid for so far does not reveal his parent(s). I know it's only a slight possibility that any other names will be given but I would be so grateful if you could look up the HM Woods records just to eliminate that possibility. He was a shipwright & my search so far has given me Newcastle apprentices only up to 1774. There appears to be apprentice records for Bishopwearmouth & South Shields, how do I go about accessing these records? At what age did apprentices get taken on around 1800? Thank you for any info. Regards Dorothy

>THOMAS WESTGARTH D.O.B. ABT 1850 BORN HOWDON PARENTS CUTHBERT & HANNAH WIFE CATHERINE D.O.B. ABT 1850 BORN HOWDON CHILDREN JOHN D.O.B ABT 1875 BORN HOWDON ROBERT D.O.B ABT 1877 BORN HOWDON MARY D.O.B. ABT 1880 BORN HOWDON THOMAS D.O.B. ABT 1881 BORN WALLSEND HANNAH D.O.B. ABT 1883 BORN WALLSEND >SAMUEL D.O.B ABT 1887 BORN WALLSEND Janet - In Blyth in 1901, indexed as WERTGARTH. . . . image sent off-line. Cheers Linda

In a message dated 28/05/2007 06:44:43 GMT Daylight Time, [email protected] writes: This is a retry after 12 months searching, & I'm hoping Geoff will be able to help this Geordie in Oz. My 3Ggrandfather Edward Ross married Elizabeth Oliver on 13/2/1816. He was born in Benton in 1788. All info that I've paid for so far does not reveal his parent(s). I know it's only a slight possibility that any other names will be given but I would be so grateful if you could look up the HM Woods records just to eliminate that possibility. He was a shipwright & my search so far has given me Newcastle apprentices only up to 1774. There appears to be apprentice records for Bishopwearmouth & South Shields, how do I go about accessing these records? At what age did apprentices get taken on around 1800? In assume that by "born in Benton" you mean "born somewhere within the parish of Longbenton, Northumberland". The H M Wood transcript of Longbenton parish register includes no baptism for an Edward Ross, 1785 to 1790. The IGI (1992 microfiche edition) for Northumberland also does not include any edward Ross baptism from Longbenton around that period. The nearest is an Ndward Rfoss baptised at Earsdon on 13 May 1785. He was the son of Matthew Ross and Dorothy, whose marriage is not included on that editon of the Northumberland IGI. Ross is included with Rose, etc, so that surname/spelling can also be eliminated. My own databases of Northumnberland baptisms and marriages also do not help. For the late 18th century/early 19th century apprenticeships were given only by Trades Guilds, of which there were none in Sunderland, and were designed to fit the apprentice for Guild Membership - ie to possibly run his own business rather than to become an employee in someone else's business. The later sort of apprenticeshpis - ones "as we know them" came in with larger, labour-intensive industries, where the jobs became more skilled, and it became even more important for an employer to know that a potential recruit knew what he was doing. At the time in question an apprenticeship (to a Trades Guild) usually began at the age of 14 and lasted for seven years, until the apprentice was 21 and gained his majority. Any apprentice records for either Bishopwearmouth or South Shields, or anywhere else in the modern Tyne and Wear, are now held by Tyne and Wear Archives Service, Blandford House, West Blandford Street, Newcastle upon Tyne, where there is a card-index compiled some years ago by NDFHS member Fred Furness. They include those from all the old Newcastle Trades Guilds and also from some of the more recent large employers in the shipbuilding, engineering and other industries. There is a list published (on microfiche) by Durham County Record Office, listing all those that they have, and they might include a few for districts such as the ones you mention, which were part of Co Durham until 1974 but which then came under Tyne and Wear. Most of them, however, are to the Durham Trades Guilds. Geoff Nicholson

I posted this a while ago, but I thought I would try my luck again. I have quite a collection of information about my gf HENRY FOX and gm MARY ANN (GENNER) FOX going back to their ancestors in their respective birth counties of Somerset and Staffordshire. However, as my father, LESLIE FOX joined the RAF and moved away, and never talked about his family, I never even knew the name of his siblings other than one sister, ELSIE (nor the name of his parents, until I started genealogy). I know from the 1901 census of the following: SIDNEY FOX b 1892 in Witton Park ENOCH PERCY FOX b 1894 in Witton Park ARNOLD FOX b 1895 in Witton Park SARAH GERTRUDE FOX b 1898 in Witton Park Plus HENRY FOX b 1903 in Houghton ELSIE FOX (became SCOTT) b 1905 in Houghton And my father LESLIE FOX b 1910 in Houghton I think there might be one or two others, without getting the birth certificates I obviously cannot definitely identify them from the free BMD records. What I am looking for is anyone who may claim descent from any of these siblings (ie my unknown first cousins), or anyone who knows about this family. Rodney Fox

In a message dated 24/05/2007 09:50:31 GMT Daylight Time, [email protected] writes: It has actually been set for a number of years now, much longer than I remember earlier price levels having been maintained. __________________________________________________________________________ The fees were last revised on 1st April 2003. The statutory fee is to ensure that ONS only recovers the costs relating to the service provided. http://www.familyrecords.gov.uk/frc/news/winter2003_21.htm Regards Stan Mapstone

In a message dated 23/05/2007 17:30:49 GMT Daylight Time, [email protected] writes: over the odds (£7 for one certificate) which may or may not be the right one and this only since there has been such a vast increase in the number of people who are doing research. Capitalisation is I believe the term for this type of overcharging. £7 for one certificate is not "over the odds". What I understand from that phrase is that "the odds" are "the usual charge". The £7 is a statutory charge and is the only one for a certificate bought from a local registrar (the FRC charges more). It has actually been set for a number of years now, much longer than I remember earlier price levels having been maintained. In case it interests you, in the NDFHS Journal, Vol 1, No 1, October 1975 (of which I was editor) I published a paragraph, written by myself, complaining that the GRO had just increased their fees to £4.50 from £1.25, which I pointed out was an increase of 260%! That, of course, is equivalent to the FRC fee today. Perhaps that is what you refer to when you mention the vast increase in the number of people who are doing research. The numbers actively interested jumped upwards in the mid-70s and continued to grow rapidly until about one to two years ago. Since then those actively doing original research into families has slumped, mainly because many people think, wrongly, that they can do it themselves via the internet (they can't). I do not count looking something up on a web-site as research. It is merely the preliminary step to some of the serious research that will be needed. You refer to "capitalisation"; I think you probably mean "capitalism". You are still wrong - capital has little to do with it; it is just an application of inevitable market forces. If sales could not be obtained at that price then the price would come down. Best wishes for your continued research. Geoff Nicholson

In a message dated 23/05/2007 22:03:04 GMT Daylight Time, [email protected] writes: with December qtr 1939 missing. ________________________________________________________ Hi Ann, The Dec ¼ 1939 is not missing. If you put in Booth instead of Booy you will get it. Regards Stan Mapstone

Oh I can assure you Geoff that I have already spent a great deal on my hobby over the past 8 years but object strongly to paying over the odds (£7 for one certificate) which may or may not be the right one and this only since there has been such a vast increase in the number of people who are doing research. Capitalisation is I believe the term for this type of overcharging. I can access all the necessary sources in Scotland for a very resonable amount £6 for 5 certificates and that after already verifying that they are the right ones. That is how to attract business. The registrars offices up here also will on occassions, as long as you are not greedy, do look-ups as a favour. I have also paid for professional researchers to assist me and even then paid less for half a dozen certificates than this extortionate £7 lucky dip. I think it is time that someone realised that the poor people south of the border are being exploited in their pursuit for information which after all is theirs to begin with, but then that is the way of the world today, governed by greed. Thank you very much for you detailed reply and I can only sypathise with you all, after all I would not be happy if I went into the greengrocer and bought a bag of carrots only to be told that when you get them they may not carrots at all but you will still have to pay for them. Many thanks for your time and information, that I do appreciate and if I can help you in any way please feel free to ask, I promise I won't charge for it. All the best Richard

Hi list, please can someone help me to find a marriage index of ??? Booy to ??? Thompson c 1940? Their eldest child was registered in Durham in 1943 and her father's name is spelt Booy. I have seen this name spelt Buoy, Boye, Boie, etc.etc, I have looked on Ancestry free bmd images but cannot see it anywhere from 1936 - 1945, with December qtr 1939 missing. Any help much appreciated Many thanks Ann

Hi All, I am having problems establishing the births of some of my THORNTON family in South Shields. I wonder if someone could please advise me as to how I would go about finding the births of children in Westoe, South Shields c 1870. I have already looked on Free BMD and found some possibilities but how can I determine who parents were for these children. Scottish records are so simple to research and you get parents with all births, parents with all marriages and parents with all death certificates. So far in trying to find Thorntons in South Shields I can only get name of child and date of birth but with no parents, which is obviously of no use whatsoever as children could belong to anyone. Are all the records in England like this or is there some way of finding parents for the children. I have James Thornton born Dec quarter 1870 and died Dec quareter 1872 his parents were William Thornton and Jessie Gibson. They had at least one more child born there about the same time and I suspect it may have been either George born c1869/70 or Margaret born c1871/72. These are the ones that are on the Free BMD site for that area and period but I do not know who their parents were, how would I find out? These children are not on the 1871 census with this family and I see that there are 2 George Thorntons died June 1870 and Sept 1870 on BMD site both infants so I am hoping that one of them may be the child I am looking for. Please, pleases, could someone guide me as to how I would find out if William Thorton and Jessie Gibson had either of these Georges or any other child born between !969 and !875 in South Shields, probably Westoe. Apologies for waffling on, but this elusive child has evaded me for over 8 years now. William and Jessie had 16 children as is well known in the family but no-one knows who the missing child is (I have found 15) for years only had 14 until I recently discovered that they had gone to South Shields for about 6 or 7 years and found James b1870 there. This is how I am convinced there must be another born there between 1869 and 1875. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Many thanks Richard

In a message dated 23/05/2007 13:02:34 GMT Daylight Time, [email protected] writes: I have already looked on Free BMD and found some possibilities but how can I determine who parents were for these children. Free BMD and certain other sites only give you access to the information on the GRO INDEXES. They are just INDEXES to the existence of Birth Certificates. The only way to discover what is on the certificate is to buy a copy, either from the local (S Shields) registrar or from the FRC. From the local registrar the fee is £7. The purchase of a certificate is the ONLY way to find what is on it. At the time you are interested in the vast majority (ie almost all) of children would have been baptised. The Baptism Register of the church concerned will probably give you the names of the parents, as well as their address and the father's occupation. Sometimes, but not usually, the date of birth is added, but usually the only date given is that of baptism. The main problem with using the "baptism register" approach lies with identifying the church concerned. The whole of South Shields was originally within the Church of England parish of St Hilda's but from c1840 onwards that was sub-divided into what became many new ones. As most of South Shields is actually Westoe (which would have therefore been a better name for the town!), it would help if you had a better address than just "Westoe" for the family. Some registers, of some churches, have been transcribed and/or indexed, and microfiche copies of many of them are available for sale, from publishers such as eg the NDFHS, Lindenbridge, Northfiche, etc, etc. Try Googling for these names. Indexes to some marriage registers are on the Co Durham GENUKI pages. You will find that in practice all C of E registers from this period have been deposited in Durham County Record Office (which is the Diocesan Repository), and microfilm copies will be held by Tyne & Wear Archives Service and by South Tyneside Libraries. For churches that are not C of E (Methodists, Presbyterians, Roman Catholics, etc, etc) the situation is not so straightforward, but some registers will be in Tyne & Wear Archives. Perhaps the family were of the type that might well have had a gravestone (or two!). Lists have been made for all the old S Shields churchyards that have stones (available on microfiche from the NDFHS) and for Municipal Cemeteries there are lists for Westoe Cemetery (NDFHS), Harton Cemetery (Lindenbridge) and Jarrow Cemetery (NDFHS). Other useful material includes "The Poppy Fields" (WWI casualties), Admissions to the S Shields Marine & Technical College, etc, etc, available on microfiche from Lindenbridge. What all this amounts to is that at some stage, perhaps this one, when you have exhausted what little there is on free web-sites, it becomes important to spend a little on your hobby! Geoff Nicholson

Could SKS please check for a baptism for William CAWTHORN born 1831 -1832 at Houghton le Spring and Lancester. Parents William Cawthorn and Sarah Murray (Morrow) Thank you so much Maureen Cook Shoalwater Western Australia -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. It has removed 4647 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this message in their emails. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len

In a message dated 22/05/2007 19:50:04 GMT Daylight Time, [email protected] writes: Hi Geoff, Thanks for your reply and I would be very grateful for a look up in the H M Woods transcripts for Walter and Ann's two children baptised before 1812 Catherine Smith bapt 14 April 1811 at Bishopwearmouth and Ann Smith bapt 4th Sept 1808 at Bishopwearmouth Any help would be wonderful. Could I also ask you how I can obtain the marriage cert for Walter as it is pre 1837 and would it show parents names? With thanks Ann Ann: Ann Smith (b) 7 Aug, (bap) 4 Sep, 1st d of Walter Smith, labr, N of Chatton, Northd by his wife Ann late Leighton N of this P Catherine Smith (b) 13 Dec 1810, (bap) 14 Apl, 2nd d of Walter Smith, labr, N of Charlton, Northd, by his wife Ann late Leighton, N of this P The abbreviations etc are as in the H M Wood transcript and may not be precisely as in the original register. However, I expect their meanings will be fairly obvious to you. Notice that Walter's birthplace is given as Chatton and as Charlton. Both are in north Northumberland, North andn South Charlton being on or near to the modern A1, between Alnwick and Belford. Chatton is a village and parish between Wooler and Belford. There is another Charlton, west of Bellingham, in north Tynedale, but in spite of that district being full of people having Charlton as their surname, it is just a single farm - most "natives of Charlton" being from North or South Charlton. There are NO marriage certificates prior to the introduction of Civil Registration on 1 July 1837. What you should seek is the parish register entry for the marriage (just as you have looked at parish register baptisms because there were no Birth Certificates before that date). The amount of detail (very little) given in entries 1754-1837 has been mentioned several times on this list, so I won't go into it all again, except to say that the names of the parents are not normally given. Very, very occasionally they might be given, especially the father of a bride who was under the age of 21 - ie a minor. If the marriage was by Licence, and not after the calling of Banns (less than 10% were) then the Bond and Allegation necessary for the Licence to be issued should be in Durham University Library, Archives and Special Collections, and while that, again, will probably not mention the father, there is just a very slight possibility that it might. There are several marriage indexes and transcripts which might show the marriage of Walter and Ann (IGI/Family Search, Boyd, NDFHS Ancestral Indexes fiche, etc). My own database shows it to have been on 6 March 1808 at Bishopwearmouth. You can obtain a summary of the details from the original or from the H M Wood transcripts (Newcastle Central Library and available on microfiche from Northfiche). Geoff Nicholson

Hi Geoff, Thanks for your reply and I would be very grateful for a look up in the H M Woods transcripts for Walter and Ann's two children baptised before 1812 Catherine Smith bapt 14 April 1811 at Bishopwearmouth and Ann Smith bapt 4th Sept 1808 at Bishopwearmouth Any help would be wonderful. Could I also ask you how I can obtain the marriage cert for Walter as it is pre 1837 and would it show parents names? With thanks Ann Ann Leighton married Walter Smith on the 6th March 1808 at Bishopwearmouth. Walter was a widow in the 1841 census and was born at Chatton, Northumberland in 1780. IGI have a possible match for an Ann Leighton born 27th July 1788 at Bishopwearmouth, parents Robert Leighton and Catherine Baxter. Would it be possible for someone to please confirm that these were Ann's parents and also trace her date of death in Bishopswearmouth between 1831 and 1841 ( last child aged 10 in 1841 census). Ann: The obvious way to trace the origins of anyone who married during the "Barrington Period" (1798-1812) is to seek the baptisms of any of their children, baptised before the end of 1812. The entry should give the names of the parishes of which each parent was a native (ie in which they had been born). If you have baptism dates for any children in or before 1812, then let us know, and their entry can then easily be read via the H M Wood transcripts. This illustrates the importance of using original records (or facsimiles of them), rather than the incomplete summary entries found in many transcripts and indexes. The "Original Indexes" index to all burials in Co Durham 1813-39 (now published by the NDFHS in their "Ancestral Indexes" series) mentions several Ann Smiths in Sunderland/Bishopwearmouth/Monkwearmouth 1831-1839. All can be eliminated because their ages do not "fit", wiht the exception of one where the age is not given. That one referes to an Ann Smith of Charles Street, Bishopwearmouth, buried at Sunderland on 2 July 1835. Of course, that index does not cover 1840/41. Geoff Nicholson

In a message dated 20/05/2007 08:55:25 GMT Daylight Time, [email protected] writes: Moral Defectives ~ criminal or vicious personalities. Unmarried Mothers also became absorbed into this category. See http://www.institutions.org.uk/poor_law_unions/imbeciles.htm _________________________________________________________ Hi Mike, Thanks for the correction. Obviously this quote is not correct and it should be; moral defectives were people who, from an early age, displayed "some permanent mental defect coupled with strong vicious or criminal propensities on which punishment had little or no effect" http://www.mdx.ac.uk/www/study/MHHGLO.HTM#Institutions18901913 I have emailed Rossbret to point this out, so that hopefully it can be changed. Regards Stan Mapstone

Hi Stan The site you quote is a good one for some things & I would recommend it for people interested in Poor Law Unions. Unfortunately, while you quote an interpretation I was quoting the 1913 Act itself. And it does not refer to lunacy (as it was then called) but deficiency. It was effectively differentiating in law between lunacy & mental deficiency (what we would call learning disability). It was the Act which really kick-started the differentiation of types of hospital. For mental illness at that time, you need to look at the 1890 Lunacy Act. I looked on the web and the best I can come up with is: http://www.mdx.ac.uk/www/study/MHHGLO.HTM#Institutions18901913 At least this has direct quotes from the various Acts etc rather than interpretations. Similarly, to talk of "personalities" is problematic because it wasn't a term in common usage in psychiatry at the time (and the law will always reflect that). What the 1913 Act was getting at was people who were prone to vicious/criminal behaviour but didn't seem to learn from their errors when punishment was applied - i.e. they were unable to change/learn (because of a deficiency). Yours respectfully Mike > In a message dated 20/05/2007 03:07:51 GMT Daylight Time, > [email protected] writes: > So, this Act did not refer to any mental illnesses at all. > __________________________________________________________________________ > > Moral Defectives ~ criminal or vicious personalities. Unmarried Mothers > also > became absorbed into this category. > See http://www.institutions.org.uk/poor_law_unions/imbeciles.htm > > Regards Stan Mapstone

Hi Everyone. I have an John ELLISON that was born in 1589 at Ryton in Durham. I have no info on his wife and his parents. John ELLISON was married on the 14 Aug 1614 at Ryton Durham. Help Please. >From Annette

Thanks for this - I now understand what an Aycliffe Angel is /was. In a recent death notice, my mother's cousin was thus described. Mike in Saudi > I also found a web site about Aycliffe Minitions facory - it was a huge > operation, and a dangerous one at that. I just remember the smell of the > shortbread biscuits my mother brought for me from the canteen! > >> > >

In a message dated 20/05/2007 06:46:40 GMT Daylight Time, [email protected] writes: I have an John ELLISON that was born in 1589 at Ryton in Durham. I have no info on his wife and his parents. John ELLISON was married on the 14 Aug 1614 at Ryton Durham. Help Please. >From Annette Annette: First, I doubt whether you KNOW that he was born at Ryton in 1589. I suspected at first that you had found from the parish register that he was baptised there in that year - almost, but not quite, the same thing! If his family had been in Ryton for some time, then you will probably have to accept that you have got as far back as you can. The registers begin in 1582 and before that there is effectively nothing. HOWEVER, having looked at my own database, which includes all Ryton baptisms for that period, in the hope of identifying the entry and seeing what sort of address is given for the family, I found that I had no trace of that entry, under Ellison, Allison or Allinson. I therefore looked at my own copy of the H M Wood transcript, as far as I know the only transcript of Ryton register for the period, from where I find that there was indeed no such entry in 1589 (1 Jan 1588/89 to 25 March 1589/90), and none that could have been read as anything like "John Ellison". I have, therefore, to ask what your source was for your statement. John's marriage date agrees with the register, his wife Dorothie Merriman, coming from a family very long-established in Ryton (I have a feeling they were there at the time of Hatfield's survey in c1382: they were also present in Boldon parish). Ryton has a very good set of tithe records but they, too, begin in the 1580s. If you think the family had anything worth putting in a Will you could check for one - any Will would be in Durham University Library, Archives and Special Collections. However, be warned that the palaeography involved in reading one from the 1580s can be quite an obstacle if you are not used to it! Another possible source, but one which would require even greater palaeographic skills, and even more time in Durham University Library to pore over the documents, is if the family were copyholders in Ryton Manor, under the Bishop of Durham, who was Lord of the Manor there. That is, if they were farmers. You could search the Halmote Court Records and seek transactions recording their taking up of copyholds. However, it is not easy and is extremely demanding of time. The Halmote records have never been transcribed and to the best of my knowledge are not on-line anywhere at all. I have to say that from my own researches into the history of Ryton I do not recognise the surname Ellison/Allison as having been a particularly prominent one in Ryton parish. The only possible entry from anyone of the surname in 1589 could be the baptism of "Ellinor, d Thomas Allison, Spen", on 27 July 1589. High Spen was partly in the township of Winlaton and partly in that of Chopwell (though the 16th century High Spen farm was probably that now opposite the "Bute Arms", on the Winlaton side of the road, and no doubt farming only land in that Manor), while Low Spen was entirely within Winlaton Manor. At the time the Manor of Winlaton was owned by a consortium of Newcastle merchants and that of Chopwell by Sir Robert Constable of Flamborough in Yorkshire. Geoff Nicholson

I have a copy of a certificate issued to my Stuart SNOWDON dated May 23, 1919 showing him to be a member of the "Comrades of the Great War". I believe that was one of the associations that eventually made up the British Legion. I know he was not killed in a war but is there a web site that would show his military involvement? Thank you. Dave.