In a message dated 04/02/2005 18:37:51 GMT Standard Time, fvproud@btopenworld.com writes: He was born on around 4 December 1878, Hi Frances, If you are sure of the approx date you can get the certificate from Sunderland Register Office, the GRO Index is not needed when you order from the local office. The cost is the same. Regards Stan Mapstone www.mapstone.org