Hi Folks, I have reached another block? I have traced my line of Mordey's to; Mary Mordey, ness Stephenson - her mother is Anne Stephenson born Durham. On the 1871 census she is still living there and is head of the household, Anne Stephenson age 65 born Bilingham, Durham. All the children, Anne aged 40, Elizabeth aged 35, Isabella aged 33, Louisa aged 29, Robert aged 25 and ?William aged 30 have all been born in the Manor House, Hart, Durham. But who was Anne's late husband? And what was her maiden name? does anyone have any information about the Farm and House in Hart and who were its owners prior to 1871? I think its possible that Anne's husband or her father could have been Robert as she called her eldest boy Robert. Very grateful for any help, I have tried Ancestry.com, Rootsweb.com & Family search without any luck. Kind Regards, Susan Kennedy

That last one was an accident and not meant to invade the list I do apologise Pat

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Dear List Members, My thanks to Barbara & Stan for their suggestions and locating a birth record for John Thomas Rimer in local Sunderland records. Perhaps someone more experienced with British records can help me with my "brick wall" question. My three-times great grandparents, Thomas Rimer & Mary Ann Derry/Deary, married in Berwick-Upon-Tweed in 1849 & 1850 (one civil marriage, one church marriage). Mary Ann (born abt 1831) and her father, John Derry/Deary (spelled differently on each marriage record) are the people I know practically nothing about. I figure if I locate Thomas and Mary Ann in the 1851 census, there may some specific info written there to help me identify her place of birth. United States census records mention her place of birth as "Scotland"; that is all I have to go on. Also, her father is listed on the marriage records as a soldier on the first certificate and an "out pensioner" on the second cert. Mary Ann died in Missouri, (United States) before official death records were mandatory, and their house burned down at some point, destroying many personal items... Can anyone out there tell me how to proceed to solve this mystery? Mary Anna Fox

Hello Janis Many thanks for this - very interesting, and possibly very significant, although the birth date 1832 for this John STEPHENSON appears too early (he was consistent in his age on all the censuses I've seen). I'll keep on looking for the marriage, as so much hinges on this. Best wishes, Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: "Janis Noonan" <2zpool@charter.net> To: <ENG-DUR-SUNDERLAND-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2005 2:25 PM Subject: [SUNDERLAND] John Fleming STEPHENSON - shipwright - born Sunderland circa 1835 > Jim, > > I looked through my index of Bishopwearmouth and Monkwearmouth HO 107/2395 > folios 1-542 and HO 107/2396 folios 4-236., HO107/2398 folios 1-511. No > John Stephenson that meets your criteria. > > Interesting though and food for thought--there is a marriage of a Francis > Stevenson and Charlotte Fleming in Bishopwearmouth for 19 Sept 1826. Then > in the IGI extracted records a birth and christening of a John Stephenson > son of Francis Stephenson and Charlet Flemming in St. Mary's Roman Catholic > Church BWM. The dates are birth -10Dec 1832 and christening 30 Dec 1832. > > Keep these in mind for when you find his marriage and it gives the father's > name. > > Janis >

In a message dated 17/03/2005 00:00:36 GMT Standard Time, ENG-DUR-SUNDERLAND-D-request@rootsweb.com writes: jim.clay1@btopenworld.com <I'm trying to locate my better half's gg-grandad John Fleming STEPHENSON, a shipwright, who was born in Sunderland about 1835 according to 1861/1881/1891/1901 censuses; he was not at home for the 1871. > I have a Mary Stephenson married to John Goodchild Mordey on 18 April 1854, at that stage the Mordey's were farmers and landowners, John G Mordey's father 'William' was a Doctors who had a lot to do with putting in ?drainage/clean water to the town. I would be interested to find out more about the Stephenson family, Mary was my gt.gt. Grandmother. I will drop you a line off list so as not to clog the list up with too much info:-) Kind Regards, Susan Kennedy _http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/k/e/n/Susan-J-Kennedy-Lanarkshire/ index.html_ (http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/k/e/n/Susan-J-Kennedy-Lanarkshire/index.html)

Dear listers This is my first post to the Sunderland list. I'm trying to locate my better half's gg-grandad John Fleming STEPHENSON, a shipwright, who was born in Sunderland about 1835 according to 1861/1881/1891/1901 censuses; he was not at home for the 1871. He married Ann RUTTER from Dover, Kent, I'm guessing about 1856/57 (though I haven't found a record yet). Their eldest known child Eleazer, named for Ann's mariner father, was born Northfleet, Kent circa 1857/58, and they were living in Poplar, East London, by 1861. I wonder if any other listers are researching this STEPHENSON family? Or can anyone find him (age 15ish) on the 1851 census? Any information or guidance will be very gratefully received. Best wishes and good hunting, Jim in Essex

Jim, I looked through my index of Bishopwearmouth and Monkwearmouth HO 107/2395 folios 1-542 and HO 107/2396 folios 4-236., HO107/2398 folios 1-511. No John Stephenson that meets your criteria. Interesting though and food for thought--there is a marriage of a Francis Stevenson and Charlotte Fleming in Bishopwearmouth for 19 Sept 1826. Then in the IGI extracted records a birth and christening of a John Stephenson son of Francis Stephenson and Charlet Flemming in St. Mary's Roman Catholic Church BWM. The dates are birth -10Dec 1832 and christening 30 Dec 1832. Keep these in mind for when you find his marriage and it gives the father's name. Janis

Not all Sunderland I know but I need help with this one ! I have a Robert Overend born about 1856 in Whitby He supposedly married Margaret Daly nee Lovett probably around 1880 but I can not nor for love nor money find that marriage His mother -in -law if he did marry Margaret was living at 45 Suffield Street Civil Parish Middlesbrough County Yorkshire Sarah Lovett born about t 1825 Ashby or Astley Head John Daly born about 1875 Middlesbrough grandson William Daly born about 1879 Middlesbrough grandson / we believe William changed his name to Overend but don't know when ! Sarah Lovett born about 1873 Hylton Yorkshire Sarah Lovett born about t 1825 Ashby or Astley Head Robert was living at 1881 - Census Living in Church Street Whitby John Overend born about 1822 Lofthouse head Margaret Overend born about 1856 North Fleet unknown relationship Mary Jane Overend born about 1858 Whitby daughter Robert Overend born about 1856 Whitby son Robert Edward Overend born about 1881 Middlesbrough relationship unknown I cannot find a birth, or marriage either , for Margaret Lovett to John Edward Daly born Cork about 1855 John Daly was in Leeds prison Armley on the 1881 census is there any way I can find out why? I have how ever found this and oddly enough William Daley -Overend ended up in Sunderland but could that have been because his Mother was here in the late 1900's 1873 December Sunderland Edward DEELEY TO Margaret Lovett 10a 1047 Margaret Daly died aged 49 sunderland 1894 ? Confusing and conjecture for now Cheers for now Pat

----- Original Message ----- From: "Pat & Derek" <derek.phillips2@ntlworld.com> To: <ENG-DUR-SUNDERLAND-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2005 10:19 AM Subject: Re: [genealogy] Fw: [SUNDERLAND] Gold Mine > Tim I meant I am the one with dual nationality I was being facetious in that > if I can go to and fro to Oz then so could my ancestors ! > It should have read me not be > Sorry for the mistake > Cheers Pat Oops - and there I was, thinking I was telling you something new! But, while I am rambling on, did you find William and Mary in the 1881 census transcription on CD? If you did, then if you go back and find William and Mary Elder again, click on the "Neighbours" tab, and you will see that quite a range of occupations are represented within Hedworth Terrace. They include Inspector of Nuisance (Munic), Blacksmith retired, Joiner, Lodging House Keeper, Owner of Blacksmith Shop, Owner of Gold Mine, Rural Policeman - no landed gentry with great estates there. While I have no evidence about the location of William Elder's gold mine, I would be greatly surprised if it was in Australia (always assuming that it wasn't merely a private joke of William's). Certainly, if I called myself the Owner of a gold mine in Australia, I wouldn't be tending my garden in Whitburn while I trusted whoever I had left digging the gold out of my mine. I am inclined to believe that his mine would more likely have been in Wales or Scotland (his wife's birth in Cupar could be a clue?), or that he was simply a shareholder in a productive gold mining company. Definitely no gold in Lizard Lane - I never even saw a lizard there! Another puzzle for Stan, perhaps. Near neighbours of William Elders included families living at Pear Tree Cottage, where there were at least 5 families, totalling at least 30 people. Just what sort of "cottage" would have housed that many? HTH Tim S.

Hello List There is a possibility that William Elder had indeed been to Australia Max who subscribes to this list sent me a lot of information on one part of the Elder /Toft line who emigrated to Australia It seems a brother of Mary Toft -her Mother was the Elder -visited I am wondering if the brother could have been her uncle? There were brothers if I have linked them correctly named John and William it could have been them in 1852 Either that or they were smugglers off the North East Coast Which ever it is good to try to work out the why's and wherefores Cheers Pat ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Rowntree" <davtree@bigpond.com> To: <ENG-DUR-SUNDERLAND-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2005 1:35 AM Subject: FW: [genealogy] Fw: [SUNDERLAND] Gold Mine > Pat, > > The only William Elder who possibly fits going to Victoria is the following: > > ELDER JOHN A SEP 1852 KENT B 008 004 > ELDER WILLIAM A SEP 1852 KENT B 008 004 > > These were two adult arrivals from a British port on the vsl "Kent" in Sep > 1852. Unfortunately age is not specified as is the norm. Did he have a > brother or father John? > > David Rowntree > > -----Original Message----- >

Pat, The only William Elder who possibly fits going to Victoria is the following: ELDER JOHN A SEP 1852 KENT B 008 004 ELDER WILLIAM A SEP 1852 KENT B 008 004 These were two adult arrivals from a British port on the vsl "Kent" in Sep 1852. Unfortunately age is not specified as is the norm. Did he have a brother or father John? David Rowntree -----Original Message----- From: Pat & Derek [mailto:derek.phillips2@ntlworld.com] Sent: Tuesday, 15 March 2005 10:20 AM To: ENG-DUR-SUNDERLAND-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [genealogy] Fw: [SUNDERLAND] Gold Mine Tim I meant I am the one with dual nationality I was being facetious in that if I can go to and fro to Oz then so could my ancestors ! It should have read me not be Sorry for the mistake Cheers Pat ----- Original Message ----- From: "tim sewell" <postmantim2@optusnet.com.au> To: "Pat & Derek" <derek.phillips2@ntlworld.com>; "ENG-DUR-SUNDERLAND-List" <ENG-DUR-SUNDERLAND-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 11:09 PM Subject: Re: [genealogy] Fw: [SUNDERLAND] Gold Mine > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Pat & Derek" <derek.phillips2@ntlworld.com> > To: <ENG-DUR-SUNDERLAND-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2005 6:09 AM > Subject: [genealogy] Fw: [SUNDERLAND] Gold Mine > > > > Should of thought of that one Stan be being a dual nationality as in > Aussie > > and Brit > > Don't think there would be too may goldmines in Lizard Lane -or maybe > > Cheers Pat > > Hi, Pat. > > Just a few simple comments - > > Australia and "Australian Nationality" did not exist in a legal sense until > the separate British colonies in Australia were formally united into a > Federation in 1901. No-one could have had "dual Aussie and Brit" > nationality in 1881. > > Legal Australian citizenship was only introduced much more recently. To > quote a government document "From the time of European settlement until > 1949, anyone born or naturalised in Australia was a "British subject." The > Nationality and Citizenship Act 1949, which came into being on 26 January > 1949, created Australian citizenship". > > "Real" (or "fair dinkum") Australian passports were an even later > development. Until 1973, all passports issued in Australia included the > words "British Citizen" on the front. > > > HTH > Tim S. > > > ==== ENG-DUR-SUNDERLAND Mailing List ==== Sunderland.com http://www.sunderland.com/ Sunderland Echo http://www.sunderland-echo.co.uk/

The real gold rush was to Victoria abt 1853. There is a good site to check passenger arrivals at Victoria http://www.prov.vic.gov.au/access.htm , it gives assisted and unassisted immigration from 1839 to 1923. It is an index and refers to fiche of actual passenger manifests. The fiche may give a few more details such as where the passenger comes from (but not often). NSW has limited shipping information available online but more is becoming available. If you can't find you ancestor here it was still possible he went to Victoria as some manifests were just "120 persons in steerage". Of historical interest is the little known Lord Grey scheme which in about 1848 to 1850 shipped around 10,000 girls aged around 14 - 18 to Australia, shiploads at a time. Most came from Irish orphanages but many were from Scotland and England. They were indentured for 2 years on arrival. The names of those sent to Victoria appear on the index. Newspaper articles and government documents of the day on the scheme showed what colonial sentiment was toward the girls and the Irish in general, I leave it to your imagination to figure out how they fared. David Rowntree Tasmania -----Original Message----- From: Pat & Derek [mailto:derek.phillips2@ntlworld.com] Sent: Tuesday, 15 March 2005 10:20 AM To: ENG-DUR-SUNDERLAND-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [genealogy] Fw: [SUNDERLAND] Gold Mine Tim I meant I am the one with dual nationality I was being facetious in that if I can go to and fro to Oz then so could my ancestors ! It should have read me not be Sorry for the mistake Cheers Pat ----- Original Message ----- From: "tim sewell" <postmantim2@optusnet.com.au> To: "Pat & Derek" <derek.phillips2@ntlworld.com>; "ENG-DUR-SUNDERLAND-List" <ENG-DUR-SUNDERLAND-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 11:09 PM Subject: Re: [genealogy] Fw: [SUNDERLAND] Gold Mine > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Pat & Derek" <derek.phillips2@ntlworld.com> > To: <ENG-DUR-SUNDERLAND-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2005 6:09 AM > Subject: [genealogy] Fw: [SUNDERLAND] Gold Mine > > > > Should of thought of that one Stan be being a dual nationality as in > Aussie > > and Brit > > Don't think there would be too may goldmines in Lizard Lane -or maybe > > Cheers Pat > > Hi, Pat. > > Just a few simple comments - > > Australia and "Australian Nationality" did not exist in a legal sense until > the separate British colonies in Australia were formally united into a > Federation in 1901. No-one could have had "dual Aussie and Brit" > nationality in 1881. > > Legal Australian citizenship was only introduced much more recently. To > quote a government document "From the time of European settlement until > 1949, anyone born or naturalised in Australia was a "British subject." The > Nationality and Citizenship Act 1949, which came into being on 26 January > 1949, created Australian citizenship". > > "Real" (or "fair dinkum") Australian passports were an even later > development. Until 1973, all passports issued in Australia included the > words "British Citizen" on the front. > > > HTH > Tim S. > > > ==== ENG-DUR-SUNDERLAND Mailing List ==== Sunderland.com http://www.sunderland.com/ Sunderland Echo http://www.sunderland-echo.co.uk/

----- Original Message ----- From: "Pat & Derek" <derek.phillips2@ntlworld.com> To: <ENG-DUR-SUNDERLAND-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2005 6:09 AM Subject: [genealogy] Fw: [SUNDERLAND] Gold Mine > Should of thought of that one Stan be being a dual nationality as in Aussie > and Brit > Don't think there would be too may goldmines in Lizard Lane -or maybe > Cheers Pat Hi, Pat. Just a few simple comments - Australia and "Australian Nationality" did not exist in a legal sense until the separate British colonies in Australia were formally united into a Federation in 1901. No-one could have had "dual Aussie and Brit" nationality in 1881. Legal Australian citizenship was only introduced much more recently. To quote a government document "From the time of European settlement until 1949, anyone born or naturalised in Australia was a "British subject." The Nationality and Citizenship Act 1949, which came into being on 26 January 1949, created Australian citizenship". "Real" (or "fair dinkum") Australian passports were an even later development. Until 1973, all passports issued in Australia included the words "British Citizen" on the front. HTH Tim S.

Could he have been having a joke on the enumerator? May be his 'gold mine' was a business or possession that was providing him with comfortable income. I am not sure that a Gold Mine would have one owner, they were usually owned by a company with shareholders As far as I can determine there were no Gold Mines in Scotland, the gold found there was from alluvial deposits. However there are gold mines in the Dolgellau district of North Wales, discovered around 1840, which prompted the most sustained period of gold extraction activity in the British Isles, flourishing up to the first World War and which has continued intermittently ever since. <<<<<<<<Near neighbours of William Elders included families living at Pear Tree Cottage, where there were at least 5 families, totalling at least 30 people. Just what sort of "cottage" would have housed that many? >>>>>>>>> A large one! Regards Stan Mapstone _www.mapstone.org_ (http://www.mapstone.org)

Tim I meant I am the one with dual nationality I was being facetious in that if I can go to and fro to Oz then so could my ancestors ! It should have read me not be Sorry for the mistake Cheers Pat ----- Original Message ----- From: "tim sewell" <postmantim2@optusnet.com.au> To: "Pat & Derek" <derek.phillips2@ntlworld.com>; "ENG-DUR-SUNDERLAND-List" <ENG-DUR-SUNDERLAND-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 11:09 PM Subject: Re: [genealogy] Fw: [SUNDERLAND] Gold Mine > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Pat & Derek" <derek.phillips2@ntlworld.com> > To: <ENG-DUR-SUNDERLAND-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2005 6:09 AM > Subject: [genealogy] Fw: [SUNDERLAND] Gold Mine > > > > Should of thought of that one Stan be being a dual nationality as in > Aussie > > and Brit > > Don't think there would be too may goldmines in Lizard Lane -or maybe > > Cheers Pat > > Hi, Pat. > > Just a few simple comments - > > Australia and "Australian Nationality" did not exist in a legal sense until > the separate British colonies in Australia were formally united into a > Federation in 1901. No-one could have had "dual Aussie and Brit" > nationality in 1881. > > Legal Australian citizenship was only introduced much more recently. To > quote a government document "From the time of European settlement until > 1949, anyone born or naturalised in Australia was a "British subject." The > Nationality and Citizenship Act 1949, which came into being on 26 January > 1949, created Australian citizenship". > > "Real" (or "fair dinkum") Australian passports were an even later > development. Until 1973, all passports issued in Australia included the > words "British Citizen" on the front. > > > HTH > Tim S. > > >

Should of thought of that one Stan be being a dual nationality as in Aussie and Brit Don't think there would be too may goldmines in Lizard Lane -or maybe Cheers Pat ----- Original Message ----- From: <Stanmapstone@aol.com> To: <ENG-DUR-SUNDERLAND-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 4:52 PM Subject: Re: [SUNDERLAND] Gold Mine > In a message dated 14/03/2005 15:31:38 GMT Standard Time, > derek.phillips2@ntlworld.com writes: > I have a William Elder from Whitburn a former Stone Mason owning a Gold Mine > -any ideas on how or where > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > More than likely in Australia, see The Australian Gold Rush > http://www.cultureandrecreation.gov.au/articles/goldrush/ > > He does not seem to be in the 1871 Census. He could have retired to his > birth place after making his pile in Australia. > Regards Stan Mapstone > www.mapstone.org > > > ==== ENG-DUR-SUNDERLAND Mailing List ==== > Hylton Castle, > http://blake.sunderland.ac.uk/~ta5msy/castle.htm > >

I have a William Elder from Whitburn a former Stone Mason owning a Gold Mine -any ideas on how or where ThisI belive is the same Elder family that had a Dodson , Dodgson lodger in the early years Does the address in 1881 give a clue as to the status of the Elders as in wealthy or workers ? Dwelling: Hedworth Terr Census Place: Whitburn, Durham, England Source: FHL Film 1342209 PRO Ref RG11 Piece 5019 Folio 14 Page 25 Marr Age Sex Birthplace William ELDER M 57 M Whitburn, Durham, England Rel: Head Occ: Owner Of Gold Mine Formerly Mason (Mine Serv) Mary ELDER M 59 F Cupar, Scotland Rel: Wife

I think sending this on list might bring some good ideas from the list members. > Hello Barbara, > > Yes, those two are my British immigrants! Interesting thing about their > marriage; there were actually two ceremonies. The first event occurred in > the latter part of 1849 (a civil ceremony) and then in the 1850 entry that > you found (in the parish church). I am having the devil of a time locating > them in the 1851 census and exactly when they make the voyage to the U.S. My > goal is to determine Mary Ann's parents. Any suggestions? > > Mary Anna > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Barbara Tones" <btones@bigpond.net.au> > To: "mary anna" <foxit@ev1.net> > Sent: Sunday, March 13, 2005 6:13 PM > Subject: Re: [SUNDERLAND] RIMER in Sunderland abt Sep 1850 > > > > Hello Mary Anna > > > > Found on FreeBMD: > > > > Surname First name(s) District Vol Page > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Marriages Jun Quarter 1850 > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > DEARY Mary Ann Berwick 25 9 > > RIMER Thomas Berwick 25 _ > > Regards > > Barbara TONES.

In a message dated 14/03/2005 15:31:38 GMT Standard Time, derek.phillips2@ntlworld.com writes: I have a William Elder from Whitburn a former Stone Mason owning a Gold Mine -any ideas on how or where >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> More than likely in Australia, see The Australian Gold Rush http://www.cultureandrecreation.gov.au/articles/goldrush/ He does not seem to be in the 1871 Census. He could have retired to his birth place after making his pile in Australia. Regards Stan Mapstone www.mapstone.org