Alan, Your kind apology is much appreciated, but unnecessary. I do understand the intent behind your original post, which was, as always, helpful in context. What prompted my post was my own experience during family research. It's become apparent that one fact can be taken out of context, or misinterpreted, and then used in support of erroneous assumptions which are, in turn, quoted as fact. It is then difficult to shift belief in the accuracy of such 'creations'. I wanted only to clarify Stewart history for anyone who may have taken the Irish connection you mentioned as applying to all Stewarts, and I hope you are not offended. Regards, Mary Orton

Sorry to do this but my laptop crashed and I have lost a lot of email addresses -plus many files !! Could Pam from New Zealand -we were working on Margarets family , drop into my home address please as yours was one of the addresses I lost Cheers Pat

Alan, I don't dispute the accuracy of your statement about the history of this particular branch of the Stewart family, but I think it could be misconstrued as meaning that the ancestry of ALL Stewarts lies in Ireland, which is not the case. Stewart origins lie in 11th century Brittany. The name derives from the word 'steward', specifically from a favoured member of the household of King David I of Scotland (who reigned 1124-1153). This 'steward' was a member of the Anglo-Breton Fitzalan family, upon whom King David bestowed the title of Seneschal (or Steward) of Scotland, together with land lying mostly in Renfrewshire. This title was hereditary, and the sixth 'Steward' descendant married Marjorie, daughter of King Robert I (best remembered as Robert the Bruce). Their son, Robert, was the first Stewart to be crowned, as King Robert II of Scotland in1371, who ruled until 1390. For anyone interested, Scottish history is well presented on the following websites - www.scotlandhistory.co.uk and www.rampantscotland.com (My Grandmother was a Scottish-born Stewart whose ancestry is traceable to Dumfriesshire in the 1600s, so my family research has included tracing the name's origin. I also have family connections in Brittany.) Regards, Mary Orton

In a message dated 10/11/2007 20:30:31 GMT Standard Time, [email protected] writes: Rob - the Stewarts were of Irish descent ________________________________________________________________________ Hi Alan, Robert Stewart, first marquess of Londonderry (1739–1821), politician, was born in Ireland on 27 September 1739, his family roots were Scottish and Presbyterian. Stan

Rob - the Stewarts were of Irish descent and were settled at Mount Stewart, Co Down, from the 17th century. Charles William Stewart, (1778 - 1854) became Lord Stewart, and from 1822, 3rd Marquess of Londonderry. He married Lady Frances Anne Vane-Tempest as his second wife. Alan Vickers. __________________________________________________ Exclusive discounts on Norton Security from Tiscali http://www.tiscali.co.uk/products/securepc/

Can anyone answer a query regarding Seaham Harbour and it's multitude of Irish Immigrants during the mid 1800s? I'm aware that the Irish Potato Famine resulted a mass exodus to England and the New World; I am surmising that many were attracted to Seaham Harbour as this was the home of the Marquis of Londonderry who held lands in Ireland. Can anyone tell me the areas of Ireland where Londonderry held lands? Was it just County Derry? Does anyone know if this was the definite reason so many Irish migrated to Seaham Harbour? Are there records suggesting that he "advertised" for labourers to leave his Irish Estates to work in his harbour and factories in Seaham? Thanks. Rob

In a message dated 10/11/2007 18:29:36 GMT Standard Time, [email protected] writes: Can anyone answer a query regarding Seaham Harbour and it's multitude of Irish Immigrants during the mid 1800s? __________________________________________________________ Hi Rob, There were not that many! I get these figures from just entering 'Seaham' in the Ancestry Censuses ; (NB These are different from the figures given on http://www.durhamrecordsonline.com/literature/dawdon.php) In 1851 there were only 2 people born in Ireland out of a total of 412 In 1861 there were only 68 people born in Ireland out of a total of 2,253 In 1871 there were only 54 people born in Ireland out of a total of 2,802 In 1881 there were only 62 people born in Ireland out of a total of 3,099 In 1891 there were only 94 people born in Ireland out of a total of 4,694 In 1901 there were only 297 people born in Ireland out of a total of 15,449 Apart from 1851 this is just 2% of the population for each census. The Irish famine was 1845-9, and in the 1851 census the number of people in Count Durham born in Ireland was just 5% of the total The farming land they owned in Ireland was in County Down, not County Derry. He did not own factories in Seaham, he owned coal mines as well as the Harbour at Seaham. Stan

Sam, Forgot to ask what "Raine's Eye Plan" is. Judy

Sam & Geoff Thank you very much for your most interesting replies on Keelmen. Finding it very interesting so I shall have to do more research. Judy

Hi Judy Just a question if you don't mind as in did you get the report from the newspapers archives and if so how did you do that I have a small piece from the Sunderland Echo on 26th June 1924 about the death of Oliver Kendal in a ship yard accident but would like to try to find out more Cheers Pat Phillips ----- Original Message ----- From: "Judy Jeffrey" <[email protected]> To: "Sunderland Rootsweb" <[email protected]>; <[email protected]> Sent: Monday, November 05, 2007 2:56 AM Subject: [ENG-DUR-SUNDERLAND] More on Keelman 1848 > Hello List, > I now have a report from the papers on the inquest of my ancestor John > Reed > who was a keelman & died in 1848. - He rose at 4o'clock to take his keel > up > the water for 6o'clock. The keel was found unmoored, he was found dead in > the water by his son. Verdict "Accidently drowned" > > Can any one tell me how the keel would have been transported up & down the > river in those days. Was it drawn by a horse or was it propelled by a > paddle > or oars. > I would love to know more about the keelmen on the River Wear - does any > one > have any reference to where I can look this up. I do have a book on South > Hylton which is good but I should like to know more. > > Many thanks > > Judy > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.20/1108 - Release Date: > 03/11/2007 21:42 > >

In a message dated 05/11/2007 13:24:25 GMT Standard Time, [email protected] writes: The 1984 book edition (ISBN 0 85983 187 6, price in 1984: £3.90) ___________________________________________________________________ This book appears to be unobtainable, but a lot of the text is reproduced in a chapter of "Sunderland, River Town & People" 1988. Stan

Hi Geoff, It is Glen Lyndon Dodds in "A History of Sunderland" who calls him James Rain. This is wrong and his name is John Rain. I should have checked the other books I have before posting. Stan

In a message dated 05/11/2007 12:26:28 GMT Standard Time, [email protected] writes: In a message dated 05/11/2007 12:09:56 GMT Standard Time, [email protected] writes: It is a plan drawn by the then parish surveyor James Rain _____________________________________________________________ Other sources say John Rain Stan Stan: The 1984 book edition (ISBN 0 85983 187 6, price in 1984: £3.90) simply calls him "Rain". However, the exceptions to that are on the front cover, where he is called "John Rain", and on the title page where he is again "John Rain". No biographical information is given elsewhere in that publication. Centrally, on the bottom edge of the Plan (Section C5 of the 1984 book) is an elaborate cartouche with the original title and compiler's name: "An Eye Plan of Sunderland and BishpWearmouth From the South by J Rain delin" and that appears to have been the inspiration for the cover. Could you perhaps have been confusing this Rain with Rev Canon James Rain, the Co Durham 19th-century antiquarian and friend of Robert Surtees? Judy and others may also like to know that what makes the "Eye Plan" especially interesting is that it is not the sort of simple map/plan that we are all used to. Instead it is something of a bird's-eye view of the town, with streets being seen obliquely and the fronts (or backs) of the buildings being drawn out, more or less, we must assume, as they were in real life. Although we cannot assume absolute precison - the width of the roadways, for instance, must be exaggerated - nevertheless we do get a sense of being able to "walk the streets" as they were in 1785/90. The expert articles next to each page, or section, of the Eye-Plan make it even more valuable an item for anyone interested in the history of Sunderland. Geoff Nicholson

In a message dated 05/11/2007 11:55:03 GMT Standard Time, [email protected] writes: Sam & Geoff Thank you very much for your most interesting replies on Keelmen. Finding it very interesting so I shall have to do more research. Judy Judy: If you are a member of the NDFHS (which I always recommend), then you will know of their lending library of tape-recordings of talks given at certain meetings. One of those, several years old now but still in the library, is of myself talking about keelmen. However, it was almost entirely based on the Tyne. See _www.ndfhs.org.uk_ (http://www.ndfhs.org.uk) for details of what is in the library and membership etc. Geoff Nicholson

In a message dated 05/11/2007 12:09:56 GMT Standard Time, [email protected] writes: It is a plan drawn by the then parish surveyor James Rain _____________________________________________________________ Other sources say John Rain Stan

In a message dated 05/11/2007 11:57:17 GMT Standard Time, [email protected] writes: Forgot to ask what "Raine's Eye Plan" is. ______________________________________________________________________ Hi Judy, It is a plan drawn by the then parish surveyor James Rain between 1785 and 1790. It is called an "Eye Plan of Sunderland and Bishop Wearmouth from the South" it is a detailed work and an important source of information for the local historian. Copies could be obtained from the Sunderland Antiquarian Society. Stan

Raine's Eye Plan of 1785-90 shows a number of flat bottomed keels on the river carrying their eight chaldrons (53 cwts.) of coal. Some are propelled by means of large (red-dyed) sails, but in the shallower reaches they were 'puyed', or poled, along using a forked 'set'. The keelmen were prosperous, hardworking and independent, but the coalowners resented the extra cost of transporting the coal down river compared to that using waggonways. The first waggonway to reach Sunderland, at the Lambton Staithes, was built by the Nesham family company, and opened sometime before March 1815. The Wear keelmen were incensed at this threat to their livelihood, and on 20th March 1815 they placed empty keels across the river, destroyed the Gill bridge of the waggonway and set fire to the coal store. Order was only restored by the arrival of troops from Newcastle. Although there were keelmen until the 1850s their importance gradually deminished as more and more coal was brough directly to Sunderland by the waggonways and railways. Stan

In a message dated 04/11/2007 16:27:46 GMT Standard Time, [email protected] writes: Can any one tell me how the keel would have been transported up & down the river in those days. Was it drawn by a horse or was it propelled by a paddle or oars. I cannot be certain about the Wear, but on the Tyne the Keels always had a (single, square-rigged) sail. They would take their load down-river (a west to east journey on both rivers) under sail, as that was also the direction of the prevailing wind and would then usually row back with the Keel empty (Hence the song "Weel may the Keel ROW") Their journeys were timed to take advantage of the tide in both directions. I would expect much the same arrangements on the Wear. Keels being pulled by a horse as if they were a canal barge would not be possible when both banks of the river were largely taken up with a variety of industries and as for rowing it when full - I know the keelmen were strong and tough but not to that extent! Geoff Nicholson

Hi Pat, I first tried the Sunderland Echo but they did not have any archives going back before 1939 as they were burnt. Then I tried the Sunderland Library who were very helpful their e-mail is [email protected] Judy Hi Judy Just a question if you don't mind as in did you get the report from the newspapers archives and if so how did you do that I have a small piece from the Sunderland Echo on 26th June 1924 about the death of Oliver Kendal in a ship yard accident but would like to try to find out more Cheers Pat Phillips

Hi Would SKS be able to check the marriage details for Jonathan Wilkinson & Charlotte King on 22/8/1825 at Bishopwearmouth. I would like to know if their Parishes are listed & possibly any witnesses. Cheers Bryan Hall Barham NSW Australia www.users.bigpond.com/fataussie