Hi Peter. another puzzle to solve ( still about the same couple ) My great great grandparents were married at Gretna Green in July 1847. Both stated they were from the Parish of Aspatria , the groom aged 27 the bride aged 23. the bride was 3 or 4mths pregnant and records show she may have been illegitimate. Would either of the above preclude the couple marrying in a Church in Cumberland ??? Pam Willimas

Hi Pam and Petra Equally, the couple may not have wanted to go through the rigmarole of having the Banns read out in church or of having to obtain a special licence, and have found it easier simply to pop across the Border to get married. Lucky Cumberland to have that facility on the doorstep. Northumberland had one too: the marriage cottage still stands at the Scottish end of the Tweed Bridge into Coldstream. All best Peter Peter B Freshwater, MA, DipLib, FSA Scot 43 Corstorphine Road, Edinburgh EH12 5QQ, Scotland Tel: 0044 (0)131 337 7049 Email: peter@hillfoot.demon.co.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: "Petra Mitchinson" <Petra.Mitchinson@doctors.org.uk> To: <eng-cumbria@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, May 14, 2010 8:14 AM Subject: Re: [ENG-CUMBRIA] Gretna Green Marriages > Hi Pam, > > An awful lot of Cumbrian brides were pregnant, or had already had a baby, > and that was no obstacle to getting married in church. Neither was being > illegitimate yourself. > > They may have decided to go to Gretna because their respective families > did not approve of the marriage. At their age, their respective parents > had no right to forbid the marriage, but they could have still exerted > pressure. If the couple went to Gretna without their parents' knowledge > and then came back with the certificate, then the parents could not do > anything about it. > > Some Cumbrian couples later married again in their local church - I have > seen marriage certificates where in the column that usually contains > "Bachelor" and "Spinster" it said: "Previously married in Gretna". > > Petra > > > ----- Original Message ----- >> Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 15:30:34 +1000 >> From: "brian williams" <bwilliams1b@optusnet.com.au> >> Subject: Re: [ENG-CUMBRIA] Gretna Green Marriages >> >> Hi Peter. >> >> another puzzle to solve ( still about the same couple ) >> >> My great great grandparents were married at Gretna Green in July 1847. >> Both stated they were from the Parish of Aspatria , the groom aged 27 the >> bride aged 23. >> >> the bride was 3 or 4mths pregnant and records show she may have been >> illegitimate. >> >> Would either of the above preclude the couple marrying in a Church in >> Cumberland ??? >> >> Pam Willimas > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > ENG-CUMBRIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Hi Pam, An awful lot of Cumbrian brides were pregnant, or had already had a baby, and that was no obstacle to getting married in church. Neither was being illegitimate yourself. They may have decided to go to Gretna because their respective families did not approve of the marriage. At their age, their respective parents had no right to forbid the marriage, but they could have still exerted pressure. If the couple went to Gretna without their parents' knowledge and then came back with the certificate, then the parents could not do anything about it. Some Cumbrian couples later married again in their local church - I have seen marriage certificates where in the column that usually contains "Bachelor" and "Spinster" it said: "Previously married in Gretna". Petra ----- Original Message ----- > Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 15:30:34 +1000 > From: "brian williams" <bwilliams1b@optusnet.com.au> > Subject: Re: [ENG-CUMBRIA] Gretna Green Marriages > > Hi Peter. > > another puzzle to solve ( still about the same couple ) > > My great great grandparents were married at Gretna Green in July 1847. > Both stated they were from the Parish of Aspatria , the groom aged 27 the > bride aged 23. > > the bride was 3 or 4mths pregnant and records show she may have been > illegitimate. > > Would either of the above preclude the couple marrying in a Church in > Cumberland ??? > > Pam Willimas

----- Original Message ----- From: "Derek and Jennifer way" <edenderry3@hotmail.com> To: <eng-cumbria@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2010 6:07 PM Subject: Re: [ENG-CUMBRIA] Troubeck near Penrith > > Hi Everyone, > > I am searching for the birth and susequent baptism for Mary Jane WILSON > born c1865 Troutbeck area of Cumbria. If anyone could assist me I would > appreciate it. > Hi Derek Theres a birth for Mary Jane Wilson Dec qtr 1864 at Kendal Westmorland on BMD My great grandfather John Austin was born Troutbeck Ambleside and Kendal was the reg district for his birth cert so maybe this could be your Mary. cheers Lilian

Hi Everyone, I am searching for the birth and susequent baptism for Mary Jane WILSON born c1865 Troutbeck area of Cumbria. If anyone could assist me I would appreciate it. Best Wishes, Derek

Do you have any other information on Mary Jane Wilson? in the 1871 census there is a Mary J. Wilson age 6 a daughter in the household of David C. Wilson age 30 b. Brampton, Carlisle. commerical blacksmith Margaret A. age 31 wife Mary J. age 6 David age 5 John Joseph age 2 Margaret age 2 they are living at 13 Garden Street, Botchergate, Carlisle All children were born Carlisle. In 1881, this Mary Jane Wilson is listed as an elementary teacher. If you have further details about Mary Jane Wilson, can you let us know. Rene ----- Original Message ----- From: "Derek and Jennifer way" <edenderry3@hotmail.com> To: <eng-cumbria@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2010 1:07 PM Subject: Re: [ENG-CUMBRIA] Troubeck near Penrith > > Hi Everyone, > > I am searching for the birth and susequent baptism for Mary Jane WILSON > born c1865 Troutbeck area of Cumbria. If anyone could assist me I would > appreciate it. > > Best Wishes, > Derek > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > ENG-CUMBRIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Peter, Have ordered the IGI film for bishops trancripts for the area. Maybe lucky . I will contact theg Whitehaven record office as well. Thanks once again for your help Pam Williams ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Freshwater" <peter@hillfoot.demon.co.uk> To: <eng-cumbria@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, May 09, 2010 11:46 PM Subject: Re: [ENG-CUMBRIA] 1851 census > Hi Pam > > I suggest that you email the Whitehaven Archives and Local History Library > service at whitehaven.record.office@cumbriacc.gov.uk > and see if they can help with lists of Whitehaven seamen. Give them as > many > names and dates as you can. > > Hope this helps. > > All best > > Peter > > > > Peter B Freshwater MA, DipLib, FSA Scot > Edinburgh, Scotland > peter@hillfoot.demon.co.uk > Researching > FRESHWATER, SWINGLER, BRUCE, PERKINS, FOLWELL, NEWCOMB(E) (Beds, Leics, > Northants) > HAUGHAN, RICHARDSON (Cumbria, Durham) > DOW, GRAY, HUNTER, KENNEDY, JACKSON, McDOUGALL (Angus, Perthshire, > Glasgow) > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "brian williams" <bwilliams1b@optusnet.com.au> > To: <eng-cumbria@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Sunday, May 09, 2010 9:43 AM > Subject: Re: [ENG-CUMBRIA] 1851 census > > >> Hi Peter >> >> Thanks very much for that . Really begins to show I might be on the >> correct >> path and prove other theory's wrong. >> >> I have a ship's captain maybe from Whitehaven as this is where he child >> was >> born. On the wevsite noted a list of whips from there. has anyone listed >> the >> ships seaman working in that port.? >> >> Pam > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > ENG-CUMBRIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > --- > avast! Antivirus: Inbound message clean. > Virus Database (VPS): 100508-1, 08/05/2010 > Tested on: 5/10/2010 2:43:19 PM > avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2010 ALWIL Software. > http://www.avast.com > > >

Hi Chris, Thank you for that , very exciting , Mym family came to australia in 1853 so I thought Dad may be needing the extra income to emigrate. Pam ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Dickinson" <chris@dickinson.uk.net> To: <eng-cumbria@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2010 9:51 PM Subject: [ENG-CUMBRIA] 1851 Census > > > Brian Williams wrote: > > >> I have found an ancestor working at Camerton Hall for the Cooke family. >> as an agricultural servant in the 1851 census > >> Is someone able to tell me if it is possible that the husband of a >> married women ( wife of an agricultural worker), with 2 children listed >> living in Aspatria the night of the census, could be working away from >> home, i.e 21 miles away and staying overnight. > >> That is was it common practice at that time. > >> I know for certain that her husband was not deceased, they had a child in >> 1852 baptised at Aspatria > > > > There is no problem about an 'agricultual servant' working 21 miles away > from home. As the 'big house' of the parish of Camerton, Camerton Hall > might well have had a number of estate staff living on the premises. > > Bear in mind that, as well as making good financial sense (both an income > and one less mouth to feed at home), there may have been relationship > issues that made a weekly separation comfortable for both husband and > wife! > > There is, by the way, a biographical entry for the Falcon family (who > owned Camerton Hall) in 'Cumberland Families and Heraldry'. > > Chris > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > ENG-CUMBRIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > --- > avast! Antivirus: Inbound message clean. > Virus Database (VPS): 100507-1, 07/05/2010 > Tested on: 5/9/2010 6:40:53 PM > avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2010 ALWIL Software. > http://www.avast.com > > >

Hi Peter Thanks very much for that . Really begins to show I might be on the correct path and prove other theory's wrong. I have a ship's captain maybe from Whitehaven as this is where he child was born. On the wevsite noted a list of whips from there. has anyone listed the ships seaman working in that port.? Pam ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Freshwater" <peter@hillfoot.demon.co.uk> To: <eng-cumbria@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2010 6:43 PM Subject: Re: [ENG-CUMBRIA] 1851 census > Certainly it happened elsewhere. One of my Bedfordshire ancestors is > listed > in 1841 as a living-in servant at the Rectory while his wife and children > are listed in their cottage some miles away. In 1891 in the ferry port of > Ardrossan my great grandmother is listed as 'Ship's Carpenters' wife'; I > still haven't found my great grandfather's entry, but he was probably on > an > overnight ferry or had overnighted in a hostel or lodgngs at another ferry > port. > > Similarly, people not listed at home turn up listed elsewhere as visitors > with other family members or friends. There are also instances of houses > full of sleepovers after family wakes or other celebrations. > > Hope this helps. > > Peter > > Peter B Freshwater, MA, DipLib, FSA Scot > Edinburgh, Scotland > Email: peter@hillfoot.demon.co.uk > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "brian williams" <bwilliams1b@optusnet.com.au> > To: "County Cumberland" <ENG-CUMBRIA-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2010 7:48 AM > Subject: [ENG-CUMBRIA] 1851 census > > >> Listers. >> I have found an ancestor working at Camerton Hall for the Cooke family. >> as an agricultural servant in the 1851 census >> >> Is someone able to tell me if it is possible that the husband of a >> married >> women ( wife of an agricultural worker), with 2 children listed living >> in >> Aspatria the night of the census, could be working away from home, i.e 21 >> miles away and staying overnight. >> >> That is was it common practice at that time. >> >> I know for certain that her husband was not deceased, they had a child in >> 1852 baptised at Aspatria >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> ENG-CUMBRIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > ENG-CUMBRIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > --- > avast! Antivirus: Inbound message clean. > Virus Database (VPS): 100507-1, 07/05/2010 > Tested on: 5/9/2010 6:40:51 PM > avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2010 ALWIL Software. > http://www.avast.com > > >

Hi Pam I suggest that you email the Whitehaven Archives and Local History Library service at whitehaven.record.office@cumbriacc.gov.uk and see if they can help with lists of Whitehaven seamen. Give them as many names and dates as you can. Hope this helps. All best Peter Peter B Freshwater MA, DipLib, FSA Scot Edinburgh, Scotland peter@hillfoot.demon.co.uk Researching FRESHWATER, SWINGLER, BRUCE, PERKINS, FOLWELL, NEWCOMB(E) (Beds, Leics, Northants) HAUGHAN, RICHARDSON (Cumbria, Durham) DOW, GRAY, HUNTER, KENNEDY, JACKSON, McDOUGALL (Angus, Perthshire, Glasgow) ----- Original Message ----- From: "brian williams" <bwilliams1b@optusnet.com.au> To: <eng-cumbria@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, May 09, 2010 9:43 AM Subject: Re: [ENG-CUMBRIA] 1851 census > Hi Peter > > Thanks very much for that . Really begins to show I might be on the > correct > path and prove other theory's wrong. > > I have a ship's captain maybe from Whitehaven as this is where he child > was > born. On the wevsite noted a list of whips from there. has anyone listed > the > ships seaman working in that port.? > > Pam

Listers. I have found an ancestor working at Camerton Hall for the Cooke family. as an agricultural servant in the 1851 census Is someone able to tell me if it is possible that the husband of a married women ( wife of an agricultural worker), with 2 children listed living in Aspatria the night of the census, could be working away from home, i.e 21 miles away and staying overnight. That is was it common practice at that time. I know for certain that her husband was not deceased, they had a child in 1852 baptised at Aspatria

Brian Williams wrote: > I have found an ancestor working at Camerton Hall  for the Cooke family. as an agricultural servant in the 1851 census > Is someone able to tell me if it is possible that the husband of a married  women ( wife of an agricultural worker), with  2 children listed living in Aspatria the night of the census, could be working away from home, i.e 21 miles away and staying overnight. > That is was it common practice at that time. > I know for certain that her husband was not deceased, they had a child in 1852  baptised  at Aspatria There is no problem about an 'agricultual servant' working 21 miles away from home. As the 'big house' of the parish of Camerton, Camerton Hall might well have had a number of estate staff living on the premises. Bear in mind that, as well as making good financial sense (both an income and one less mouth to feed at home), there may have been relationship issues that made a weekly separation comfortable for both husband and wife! There is, by the way, a biographical entry for the Falcon family (who owned Camerton Hall) in 'Cumberland Families and Heraldry'. Chris

Certainly it happened elsewhere. One of my Bedfordshire ancestors is listed in 1841 as a living-in servant at the Rectory while his wife and children are listed in their cottage some miles away. In 1891 in the ferry port of Ardrossan my great grandmother is listed as 'Ship's Carpenters' wife'; I still haven't found my great grandfather's entry, but he was probably on an overnight ferry or had overnighted in a hostel or lodgngs at another ferry port. Similarly, people not listed at home turn up listed elsewhere as visitors with other family members or friends. There are also instances of houses full of sleepovers after family wakes or other celebrations. Hope this helps. Peter Peter B Freshwater, MA, DipLib, FSA Scot Edinburgh, Scotland Email: peter@hillfoot.demon.co.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: "brian williams" <bwilliams1b@optusnet.com.au> To: "County Cumberland" <ENG-CUMBRIA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2010 7:48 AM Subject: [ENG-CUMBRIA] 1851 census > Listers. > I have found an ancestor working at Camerton Hall for the Cooke family. > as an agricultural servant in the 1851 census > > Is someone able to tell me if it is possible that the husband of a married > women ( wife of an agricultural worker), with 2 children listed living in > Aspatria the night of the census, could be working away from home, i.e 21 > miles away and staying overnight. > > That is was it common practice at that time. > > I know for certain that her husband was not deceased, they had a child in > 1852 baptised at Aspatria > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > ENG-CUMBRIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Hello. While I am not a member of this family's genealogy, I would love to know how you found the PON for this person. Where were they coming from; my family came from England and Germany and I would like to research this for my family. Any help you can be would be greatly appreciated. Thanks you, W. Sorensen ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mokurai" <mokurai@powercrt.com> To: <eng-cumbria@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 7:07 PM Subject: [ENG-CUMBRIA] : : Port Official Numbers. > > > > > PS: Also..... I have a Joseph Robert RAILTON, ticket number 10278. He was > born in Pargate in November 1839. Can SKS tell me if Pargate is near > Whitehaven by any chance please. > > > > Thanking you for any help you can give me with this. > > > > > > Hooray, > > > > Warren in West Melton 3337 Australia. > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > ENG-CUMBRIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus > signature database 5029 (20100414) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > > http://www.eset.com > > > __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5059 (20100425) __________ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com

Thanks Warren , for your interest. I have a brother Warren !!! However what's SKS ? Also I have the 2nd marriage certificate and death certificate ( I know this infor can be wrong ) which state mother as Elizabeth Kendal ( Kendle ) and that father was a ships captain. I have a bright idea . I have the signature of John Walker late of Alma Victoria on his 2 marriage certificates Now If I could see the signature of the John Walker baptised 1821 parents John Walker and Elizabeth Flowers at ST. Cuthbert Carlisle , which would I presume on his marriage certificate I could prove that this John Walker is not my great grnadfather I have record of John Walker born 1821 Carlisle in 1851 and 1861 census with wife Mary and in 1851 son John 7, 1861 William and Hannah I noted the family names living on. Checking the free BMD for years 1840 to 1947 found only one marriage for John Walker to Mary ????. This being Mary Banks. Registered no Vol 25 p 77. In 1861 this family was at Botchergate. Is this place still in the St Cuthbert parish Is there anyway of checking at which church they married By the way my Aut always maintaned that the Walker's Geordies I a ery anxious to put the record straight as so many famly trees have been displayed on the internet which I feel need correcting Pam Williams ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mokurai" <mokurai@powercrt.com> To: <eng-cumbria@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, April 17, 2010 6:58 PM Subject: [ENG-CUMBRIA] Walker/Flowers family > Hi Pam, > > Perhaps when you finally get hold of the marriage particulars you will > find > she was a KENDALL before she married..... as for the IGI I have read > recently Latter Day Saints only managed to obtain about half of the total. > Perhaps SKS will be able to help you with the other half eh. > > Hooray, > > > Warren. > > > > > > Members > > I would like to be in touch with decendants of John WALKER and Elizabeth > FLOWERS who married on 25th May 1820 Saint Cuthbert, Carlisle, Cumberland > ( > source IGI Batch MO55981 1813-1830 Call n0. 0090579 film 6904773. > Children of this marriage all baptised at the above church were: > John b 1821, Mary b 1825, James b 1818, Samuel b 1830, and William b 1835 > > These children are known to have been listed as the children of John > Walker > and Elizabeth Kendal which is incorrect. their marriage pre 1820 having > not been found as yet. > > Pam > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > ENG-CUMBRIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > --- > avast! Antivirus: Inbound message clean. > Virus Database (VPS): 100416-1, 16/04/2010 > Tested on: 4/18/2010 4:13:52 PM > avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2010 ALWIL Software. > http://www.avast.com > > >

Hi List, I am interested in the birth record of Thomas VIPOND 14 May 1807 at Alston Redwing Chapel. Father Isaac, Mother Nanny from IGI, also Harrison VIPOND born 15th Jan 1805 father Isaac, Mother Ann. also from IGI. Are their any registers available to view? Would like to know if any Burial record appeared for Harrison in the next 10 year or so from 1805 and is Nanny a misspelling or miss transcribed?? Also are their any other children born to Isaac and Ann around that time? Hope SKS can help. David Thomas

Hi Pam, Perhaps when you finally get hold of the marriage particulars you will find she was a KENDALL before she married..... as for the IGI I have read recently Latter Day Saints only managed to obtain about half of the total. Perhaps SKS will be able to help you with the other half eh. Hooray, Warren. Members I would like to be in touch with decendants of John WALKER and Elizabeth FLOWERS who married on 25th May 1820 Saint Cuthbert, Carlisle, Cumberland ( source IGI Batch MO55981 1813-1830 Call n0. 0090579 film 6904773. Children of this marriage all baptised at the above church were: John b 1821, Mary b 1825, James b 1818, Samuel b 1830, and William b 1835 These children are known to have been listed as the children of John Walker and Elizabeth Kendal which is incorrect. their marriage pre 1820 having not been found as yet. Pam

Members I would like to be in touch with decendants of John Walker and elizabeth flowers who married on 25th May 1820 Saint cuthbert, Carlisle, cumberland ( source IGI Batch MO55981 1813-1830 Call n0. 0090579 film 6904773 children of this marriage all baztized at the above church were; John b 1821, Mary b 1825, James b 1818, Samuel b 1830, and William b 1835 These children are known to have been listed as the children of John Walker and Elizabeth Kendal which is incorrect. their marriage pre 1820 having not been found as yet. Pam

Hi Petra, Thanks very much. I'll keep this in mind when we progress further along the track eh. I think at present it would be great if we could find some male RAILTONs who are into genealogy and willing to do their Y-DNA so we would have a comparison to compare Russ' Y-DNA with. At present he is the only one in the whole of the Y-DNA world. He is an R1b haplogroup, like many others, but need a lot of them to update from the 12 marker to the 25 marker before we can start finding any cousins without the RAILTON surname. www.familytreedna.com told me years ago that if two participants have the exact same 25 marker results then they both had the exact same ancestor sometime after 1066AD, regardless of surname, as back then not everyone had surnames. Thank you. Hooray, Warren. -----Original Message----- From: eng-cumbria-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:eng-cumbria-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Petra Mitchinson Sent: Thursday, 15 April 2010 7:19 PM To: eng-cumbria@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [ENG-CUMBRIA] RAILTON from Pargate Hi Warren, I can't help you with Port numbers, but I do have the Place Name Index of Habitations in Cumberland. There is no Pargate at all, but I wonder whether it is a corruption of Parkgate? There are several of those in Cumberland: Parkgate, parish of Irton, grid reference NY 11 00 Parkgate, parish of Matterdale, grid reference NY 39 21 Parkgate, parish of Wigton, NY 21 46 Parkgate Cottage, Lanercost parish, NY 55 70 None of them is close to Whitehaven. However, the Place Name Index is not entirely complete - particularly places that no longer exist are sometimes missing. Hope this helps. Petra ----- Original Message ----- > Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2010 12:07:11 +1000 > From: "Mokurai" <mokurai@powercrt.com> > Subject: [ENG-CUMBRIA] : : Port Official Numbers. > > PS: Also..... I have a Joseph Robert RAILTON, ticket number 10278. He was > born in Pargate in November 1839. Can SKS tell me if Pargate is near > Whitehaven by any chance please. > > Thanking you for any help you can give me with this. > > Hooray, > > Warren in West Melton 3337 Australia. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ENG-CUMBRIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

PS: Also..... I have a Joseph Robert RAILTON, ticket number 10278. He was born in Pargate in November 1839. Can SKS tell me if Pargate is near Whitehaven by any chance please. Thanking you for any help you can give me with this. Hooray, Warren in West Melton 3337 Australia.