Hi Judy, Sounds as if your Thomas was a guy who liked to travel! All the harder to find his place of birth then. Have you searched the IGI for possible candidates? The problem is that he could have been born in Scotland or Cumberland or elsewhere. If there are several candidates, it can help to have a closer look at each of them and whittle them down by excluding some of the candidates - e.g. if they died or are accounted for elsewhere. The names of Thomas' children may be helpful for homing in on the correct set of parents for Thomas. The Scottish naming patterns, often also adhered to in Cumberland, stipulate that the eldest son of the couple is named after father's father, and the second daughter after father's mother. This is NOT a foolproof system for working out someone's parents as the couple may not have strictly adhered to the pattern, or they named a child after a recently deceased relative, or both parents' mothers had the same first name! Once you have the reduced the number of possible candidates, it is worth looking for wills of possible fathers of your Thomas to see whether there is a clue in the wills. Good luck! Petra ----- Original Message ----- From: "Judy Noel" <whitfield@rogers.com> To: <eng-cumbria@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 2:29 PM Subject: [ENG-CUMBRIA] Thomas Whitfield 1751 - 1827 >I am at a loss as to what to look for or where to look next and I hope > someone will be able to give me some advice. Where do I look for Thomas > Whitfield next? > > > > My 5X g-grandfather Thomas Whitfield b. 1751 and died in Kirkoswald 13 Feb > 1827 from the gravestone in Kirkoswald. Thomas married Elizabeth Lowthian > in Kirkcudbright, Scotland 1773. The marriage certificate says Whitefield > and that he was from (does not say born in) Whitehaven. > > > > 1776 finds Thomas and Isabelle in Alston. In 1786 they were in Kirkoswald > with Thomas as a rope maker. There were many Lowthians in Kirkoswald and I > have Isabella's family back to my 8X g-grandfather Thomas Lowthian b. 1667. > > > > I would love to find Thomas Whitfield's line and would appreciate > suggestions on any direction I might take. Thanks for any ideas. > > > > Judy

Hi Paul, Death registration from FreeBMD: Death March Q 1913 LAURENCE, Charles T 66 Brampton 10b 738 This means he died sometime between late December 1912 and late March 1913 in Brampton District - not necessarily in Brampton itself. Birth registration from FreeBMD: Birth March Q 1845 LAURENCE, Charles Teft Louth 14 529 (the page number is extremely difficult to read in the original index but I agree with one of the FreeBMD transcribers that the middle digit is a 2, rather than a 3 or a 5 as another transcriber suggests) There is also a marriage: Marriage March Q 1872 LAURENCE / LAWRENCE, Charles Teft Poplar 1c 982 matching Rachel LEITCH and Catherine Ann WRIGHT (as the MI transcription given by William has Catherine as the name of the wife, I assume she must be the correct one). He can be found in the 1851 census at Westgate in Louth, Lincolnshire (HO107, Piece 2111, f. 276, p. 20, sch. 86) with mother Mary Elizabeth LAURENCE (married, age 33, schoolmistress, born Leatherhead, Surrey) and numerous siblings aged 15 down to 9 months, a servant and a lodger. Charles Teft is aged 6, Scholar at Home, born Louth, LIN. In 1861, the family is in Broughton (near Salford) in Lancashire (RG9, Piece 2908, f.24-25, p.22-23, sch. 110) but it is impossible to get the right image up on Ancestry! Mother Mary V (transcription error?) is still heading the household, and the children are aged 18 down to 8. Surprisingly, I could not find him in any of the other censuses. What do you already know about him - and what are you trying to find out? Petra ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Brookes" <dragonwolf1@hotmail.co.uk> To: <ENG-CUMBRIA@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 9:52 AM Subject: [ENG-CUMBRIA] Charles T Laurence, Cumberland death > Please can anyone provide more detail on the death of Charles T Laurence in 1913 in Brampton, Cumberland? His date of birth may have been between 1845-1847. Thankyou in advance.

Hi Paul, Here is his MI in Brampton In loving memory of Charles Taft the beloved husband of Catherine LAURENCE who died March 6th 1913 aged 66 years best wishes William -----Original Message----- From: eng-cumbria-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:eng-cumbria-bounces@rootsweb.com]On Behalf Of Paul Brookes Sent: 24 February 2012 09:52 To: ENG-CUMBRIA@rootsweb.com Subject: [ENG-CUMBRIA] Charles T Laurence, Cumberland death Please can anyone provide more detail on the death of Charles T Laurence in 1913 in Brampton, Cumberland? His date of birth may have been between 1845-1847. Thankyou in advance. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ENG-CUMBRIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Please can anyone provide more detail on the death of Charles T Laurence in 1913 in Brampton, Cumberland? His date of birth may have been between 1845-1847. Thankyou in advance.

I am at a loss as to what to look for or where to look next and I hope someone will be able to give me some advice. Where do I look for Thomas Whitfield next? My 5X g-grandfather Thomas Whitfield b. 1751 and died in Kirkoswald 13 Feb 1827 from the gravestone in Kirkoswald. Thomas married Elizabeth Lowthian in Kirkcudbright, Scotland 1773. The marriage certificate says Whitefield and that he was from (does not say born in) Whitehaven. 1776 finds Thomas and Isabelle in Alston. In 1786 they were in Kirkoswald with Thomas as a rope maker. There were many Lowthians in Kirkoswald and I have Isabella's family back to my 8X g-grandfather Thomas Lowthian b. 1667. I would love to find Thomas Whitfield's line and would appreciate suggestions on any direction I might take. Thanks for any ideas. Judy

Thank you for contacting Ancestry. Unfortunately, our search index for the family trees hasn't updated since the end of November. I am unsure if you have uploaded your tree as a new tree, changed the tree name, or added the people that you are searching for since that time, but if you have done any of these things since November 24th of last year, this would be why your tree isn't showing up on a search. Typically our search index for the trees updates about once every two to four weeks, but there have been some issues with this update going through properly the last couple of time that it did go through, so our developers are currently working on this issue and hope to have the updating process going again soon. Until then, the only way for others to get onto your tree is for you to send them invitations to the tree. Ancestry.com.

Hi Nancy     What you describe is fairly normal. I'll go through your points with explanations:     > Hi List. I have an administrative will (bond) from the mid 1700s. I was > told, and I can understand, that the reason for this document was that the > deceased person did not leave a written will. Yes. > So, in 1768 the deceased's son took out this document for 7 pence, a seven pence quire.   The document was created by the local ecclesiastical court, much as any document would be created today if you went to report a death. A quire was 25 sheets of paper. View the seven pence stamp as a tax rather like VAT. Lawyers would have had bundles of these. >  On it, it says he is the son of the deceased person. Two other men are listed under his name, The court has just appointed him to be the 'Administrator' of the estate. The other two men have been appointed as 'bondsman'. They guarantee to pay the fine if the admimistrator fails to do the things that he should. > they live in the same county, neighbors. One has the same last name as the > son.  The other I've never heard of. Usually, but not always, the bondsmen have a family relationship to the deceased. If you haven't heard of the name before, this is often a very big clue for further research - maybe, for instance, an unknown brother-in-law of the administrator. > The document gives the son a little > over a year to make the inventory, the inventory was not found at the record > center. Historically, probate inventories were required (and were very detailed). But increasingly they fell out of use and were eventually abandoned as a requirement (I forget the date). In many jurisdictions, inventories weren't kept in the archives, but in Cumberland they were. I would guess from this late date that a separate inventory doesn't exist, but a sum might have been written on the admin. document. >  He paid £20 for the bond. No. This was the figure that the penalty was set at for failing to do the admininsration properly. It was unlikely to be asked for. The £20 is a tiny sum. A century earlier the penalty would have been fixed at about double the value of the moveable estate, but I don't know what was the practice at this time. I would guess that the moveable estate was tiny. >  My questions are 1. Has anyone on list > ever had a document like this? 2. If the 2nd person listed had the same name > as the first, why were not both a part of the claim? 3. It appears that the > 2nd person with the same last name could be his brother but he would have to > be a younger brother absolutely. 4. This occured in Wetheral Parish at > Carlisle and I have ordered all LDS films for Wetheral and read them line by > line, word by word. I made note of every single person with this odd last > name, made it into 3 different lists of births, weddings & deaths, which is > a great cross reference, but I find no birth record for the 2nd person. So > either they never had him baptized or the mom had him in a different parish, > right? I do seem to find him on the wedding list and twice, married his > sister-in-law after wife 1 died.  But, next question, I noticed when viewing > these 2 films, it seemed to me that many births must be missing as this > family was LARGE in the area, especially pre 1740. next, Q. Answered as above or not at all. > What are the > rules for inheritances with England in the mid 1700s? The man died in 1757 > at 46 years.  The wife died in 1764.  The doc was taken out first in 1768 > with a due date of 1769. Most of the family were yeoman.  Any comments are > appreciated. At first glance it looks as though there was a problem in settling the inheritance of the estate. Normally you would expect an estate to be dealt within a year or much less. Wives had a partial right of occupation of yeoman properties for their lifetime. Maybe there was a lack of clarity about who should get anything after her death. The values of moveables does not necessarily state anything about the value of non-moveable property like buildings. Chris

Hi List. I have an administrative will (bond) from the mid 1700s. I was told, and I can understand, that the reason for this document was that the deceased person did not leave a written will. So, in 1768 the deceased's son took out this document for 7 pence, a seven pence quire. On it, it says he is the son of the deceased person. Two other men are listed under his name, they live in the same county, neighbors. One has the same last name as the son. The other I've never heard of. The document gives the son a little over a year to make the inventory, the inventory was not found at the record center. He paid £20 for the bond. My questions are 1. Has anyone on list ever had a document like this? 2. If the 2nd person listed had the same name as the first, why were not both a part of the claim? 3. It appears that the 2nd person with the same last name could be his brother but he would have to be a younger brother absolutely. 4. This occured in Wetheral Parish at Carlisle and I have ordered all LDS films for Wetheral and read them line by line, word by word. I made note of every single person with this odd last name, made it into 3 different lists of births, weddings & deaths, which is a great cross reference, but I find no birth record for the 2nd person. So either they never had him baptized or the mom had him in a different parish, right? I do seem to find him on the wedding list and twice, married his sister-in-law after wife 1 died. But, next question, I noticed when viewing these 2 films, it seemed to me that many births must be missing as this family was LARGE in the area, especially pre 1740. next, Q. What are the rules for inheritances with England in the mid 1700s? The man died in 1757 at 46 years. The wife died in 1764. The doc was taken out first in 1768 with a due date of 1769. Most of the family were yeoman. Any comments are appreciated.

Hi all, Some of the LDS films are now scanned and online as well, so it's always a good idea to try the familysearch website in its new format as this may have a link to enable you to view the film you want. Databases & websites with transcriptions can be a good place to start, though, as it might make it much easier to find the film you want to view and save a lot of time. It's amazing what you can actually find online just by doing a search with a few key words. I've stumbled over some fantastic free sites that have proved very helpful in tracking down new information or other people tracing the same family. (Does Cumbria have an Online Parish Clerk website? The one for Dorset is a mine of info and assistance, and the one for Cornwall isn't bad either). My motto is to make as much use of everything that's available because some obscure piece of the puzzle always tends to turn up in the least likely place. The rule once you do so, of course, is to verify, verify, verify!! Good luck all, Cheers, Andrea. -----Original Message----- From: eng-cumbria-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:eng-cumbria-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Nancy Prescott Sent: Sunday, 19 February 2012 2:43 PM To: eng-cumbria@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [ENG-CUMBRIA] Cumbria Records Online I can answer this question. You would be much better off to rent the LDS films & view them line by line, word by word, tons of info that LDS will never have available, nor anyone else. nancy -----Original Message----- From: user917826@aol.com Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2012 4:19 PM To: eng-cumbria@rootsweb.com Subject: [ENG-CUMBRIA] Cumbria Records Online Hello, Nancy's post reminded me of a question that I have been meaning to ask. Are there Parish records from Cumbria online? Does anyone know if Find My Past, Ancestry or Familysearch have any plans to post these in the near future? Thanks, Bev W -----Original Message----- From: Nancy Prescott <njp33@att.net> To: eng-cul-carlisle <eng-cul-carlisle@rootsweb.com>; ENG-Cumbria <ENG-CUMBRIA@rootsweb.com>; bradley@rootsweb.com <BRADLEY@rootsweb.com>; BROWN@rootsweb.com <brown@rootsweb.com>; PRESCOTT <PRESCOTT@rootsweb.com>; Tomlinson List <TOMLINSON@rootsweb.com>; Thomas@rootsweb List <THOMAS@rootsweb.com>; Wilson List <wilson-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sat, Feb 18, 2012 1:46 pm Subject: [ENG-CUMBRIA] ANCESTRY BROKEN & ROOTSWEB PASSWORD BROKEN TOO Last night I got locked out of rootsweb, password didn't work. So I emailed to get a new one & that didn't work. So then an orange sign popped up & said it was broken until 1-19-2012. Yes, 1-19-2012. njp -------------------------------To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ENG-CUMBRIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ENG-CUMBRIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ENG-CUMBRIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Worked for me this morning. Don Farnham On 18/02/2012 21:45, Nancy Prescott wrote: > Last night I got locked out of rootsweb, password didn't work. So I emailed > to get a new one& that didn't work. So then an orange sign popped up& said > it was broken until 1-19-2012. Yes, 1-19-2012. njp > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ENG-CUMBRIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

There are some here: http://www.cumberlandroots.co.uk/ Petra ----- Original Message ----- From: <user917826@aol.com> To: <eng-cumbria@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2012 10:19 PM Subject: [ENG-CUMBRIA] Cumbria Records Online > > Hello, > > Nancy's post reminded me of a question that I have been meaning to ask. > Are there Parish records from Cumbria online? Does anyone know if Find > My Past, Ancestry or Familysearch have any plans to post these in the > near future? > > Thanks, > > Bev W

I can answer this question. You would be much better off to rent the LDS films & view them line by line, word by word, tons of info that LDS will never have available, nor anyone else. nancy -----Original Message----- From: user917826@aol.com Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2012 4:19 PM To: eng-cumbria@rootsweb.com Subject: [ENG-CUMBRIA] Cumbria Records Online Hello, Nancy's post reminded me of a question that I have been meaning to ask. Are there Parish records from Cumbria online? Does anyone know if Find My Past, Ancestry or Familysearch have any plans to post these in the near future? Thanks, Bev W -----Original Message----- From: Nancy Prescott <njp33@att.net> To: eng-cul-carlisle <eng-cul-carlisle@rootsweb.com>; ENG-Cumbria <ENG-CUMBRIA@rootsweb.com>; bradley@rootsweb.com <BRADLEY@rootsweb.com>; BROWN@rootsweb.com <brown@rootsweb.com>; PRESCOTT <PRESCOTT@rootsweb.com>; Tomlinson List <TOMLINSON@rootsweb.com>; Thomas@rootsweb List <THOMAS@rootsweb.com>; Wilson List <wilson-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sat, Feb 18, 2012 1:46 pm Subject: [ENG-CUMBRIA] ANCESTRY BROKEN & ROOTSWEB PASSWORD BROKEN TOO Last night I got locked out of rootsweb, password didn't work. So I emailed to get a new one & that didn't work. So then an orange sign popped up & said it was broken until 1-19-2012. Yes, 1-19-2012. njp -------------------------------To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ENG-CUMBRIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ENG-CUMBRIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Thank you so much! Bev W -----Original Message----- From: Petra Mitchinson <Petra.Mitchinson@doctors.org.uk> To: eng-cumbria <eng-cumbria@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sat, Feb 18, 2012 2:27 pm Subject: Re: [ENG-CUMBRIA] Cumbria Records Online There are some here:http://www.cumberlandroots.co.uk/Petra----- Original Message ----- From: <user917826@aol.com>To: <eng-cumbria@rootsweb.com>Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2012 10:19 PMSubject: [ENG-CUMBRIA] Cumbria Records Online> > Hello,> > Nancy's post reminded me of a question that I have been meaning to ask. > Are there Parish records from Cumbria online? Does anyone know if Find > My Past, Ancestry or Familysearch have any plans to post these in the > near future?> > Thanks,> > Bev W -------------------------------To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ENG-CUMBRIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hello, Nancy's post reminded me of a question that I have been meaning to ask. Are there Parish records from Cumbria online? Does anyone know if Find My Past, Ancestry or Familysearch have any plans to post these in the near future? Thanks, Bev W -----Original Message----- From: Nancy Prescott <njp33@att.net> To: eng-cul-carlisle <eng-cul-carlisle@rootsweb.com>; ENG-Cumbria <ENG-CUMBRIA@rootsweb.com>; bradley@rootsweb.com <BRADLEY@rootsweb.com>; BROWN@rootsweb.com <brown@rootsweb.com>; PRESCOTT <PRESCOTT@rootsweb.com>; Tomlinson List <TOMLINSON@rootsweb.com>; Thomas@rootsweb List <THOMAS@rootsweb.com>; Wilson List <wilson-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sat, Feb 18, 2012 1:46 pm Subject: [ENG-CUMBRIA] ANCESTRY BROKEN & ROOTSWEB PASSWORD BROKEN TOO Last night I got locked out of rootsweb, password didn't work. So I emailed to get a new one & that didn't work. So then an orange sign popped up & said it was broken until 1-19-2012. Yes, 1-19-2012. njp -------------------------------To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ENG-CUMBRIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Last night I got locked out of rootsweb, password didn't work. So I emailed to get a new one & that didn't work. So then an orange sign popped up & said it was broken until 1-19-2012. Yes, 1-19-2012. njp

The Family Tree Maker 2012 Platinum edition does include a 6-month membership to ancestry.com.

Here is the email they just sent to me. They have been telling me this for more than 7 weeks. I think that is too long. Basically, if anyone is looking for a person who is in my tree, they won't get into my public tree because ancestry only runs updates periodically and it's been over 7 weeks since I started to call them about this problem. The only way someone can get into my tree is if I send an invitation to them by email & put their email into my tree invites. So I am paying $$ for nothing. njp " Dear Nancy, We appreciate your message. The settings in that tree do show that it is public, however it will still show as private to everyone else until we run another update in our tree databases. We do not know exactly when the next update should be, but it should be relatively soon. We apologize for the inconvenience. If there is anything else with which we might assist you, please let us know. Cameron Member Solutions Ancestry.com http://ancestry.custhelp.com/

Hello   The 1871 Census shows a young man who I think is my Great Grandfather he is aged 15 years and living at Hutton House. . I am assuming that Hutton House was attached to, or, maybe even used as a Church of England grammar School as the School master is a Minister of the Church of England   Would anyone be able to tell me the name of the School and does it still exist today.   Thankyou for your help   Sharon Price   Auckland   New Zealand

Obviously an emergency baptism but it would mean that (1) he could be buried in consecrated ground, and (2) he would not face the here-after in purgatory as would then otherwise be considered to be his fate! David Henwood ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joan Gallagher" <joan_gallagher@bigpond.com> To: <eng-cumbria@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2012 11:36 PM Subject: Re: [ENG-CUMBRIA] ENG-CUMBRIA Digest, Vol 7, Issue 6 > Petra, according to the Family Search website the David POTTER who was > baptised on 28 October 1816 died on 29 October 1816. Unfortunately no > age > given. > > Cheers.......Joan > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <eng-cumbria-request@rootsweb.com> > To: <eng-cumbria@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2012 6:30 PM > Subject: ENG-CUMBRIA Digest, Vol 7, Issue 6 > > >> >> >> Today's Topics: >> >> 1. Multiple births and baptisms (Petra Mitchinson) >> 2. Multiple Births (Nancy Prescott) >> 3. Can't find birth (Petra Mitchinson) >> 4. Re: Can't find birth (B & L Copeland) >> 5. Re: ENG-CUMBRIA Digest, Vol 7, Issue 4 (Joan Gallagher) >> 6. Re: ENG-CUMBRIA Digest, Vol 7, Issue 4 (Nancy Prescott) >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2012 16:23:59 -0000 >> From: "Petra Mitchinson" <Petra.Mitchinson@doctors.org.uk> >> Subject: [ENG-CUMBRIA] Multiple births and baptisms >> To: <eng-cumbria@rootsweb.com> >> Cc: eng-cul-carlisle@rootsweb.com >> Message-ID: <F7FF3C5DA5E44BEBBA9F41AFA0F397A6@PDesktop> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >> >> Nancy has kindly sent me images of the following sets of multiple >> baptisms: >> >> 06 Aug 1816 William, Joseph, John and Isabella, children of William >> (deceased) and Dinah STORY of Workington, Shoemaker. Minister: Anth >> J...... I couldn't see it stated anywhere when the father had died. >> >> 24 Nov 1816 William, Phebe and Robert, children of William & Rebecca >> JACKSON of Workington, Watchmaker. Minister: Anth. J. DAY.... >> >> 28 Oct 1816 Agnes, Margaret and David, children of David & Eleanor POTTER >> of Workington, Mariner. Minister: Ant. J...... >> >> 17 Dec 1817 Sarah, and 20 Dec 1817 William, both children of Alexander >> and >> Jane WILKINSON of Workington, Miner. Minister: Jona..... >> >> 26 Dec 1817 Elizabeth, daughter of Japhet and Mary FLETCHER of >> Workington. >> Occupation column: Adult, School Mistress. Minister: Pe....... >> 26 Dec 1817 Mary, daughter of Japhet and Mary FLETCHER of Workington. >> Occupation column: Adult, Spinster. Minister: Pe..... >> >> And also: >> >> Burials 1817: 30 Oct Thomas, 02 Nov Mary and Nancy, all children of John >> HOLDEN, Mariner of Workington, all 2 weeks old. >> >> >> My comments: >> >> For the first three sets of multiple baptisms, there is no indication >> whether these were multiplets or siblings of different ages. >> >> The two children baptised 3 days apart - I should have thought that if >> they had been twins, the parents would have had them baptised on the same >> day. A more likely scenario is that Sarah was ill and had an emergency >> baptism, and the other child was done in church the following Sunday >> (although I don't know what weekday the 20 Dec 1817 was). >> >> The FLETCHERs were adult baptisms of two sisters, so there is absolutely >> no need for them to be twins (although the could be) - but they would >> have >> been born many years before 1817. >> >> As far as the burials go, these were indisputably triplets as they all >> had >> the same age! Nancy, you didn't give us a baptism for them - perhaps they >> never made it to baptism? >> >> >> Nancy, seeing whether the vicar was a new broom who was sweeping well >> will >> add to circumstantial evidence but will not be absolute proof. Equally, >> there could have been some religious event in town which converted some >> people who previously had not bothered with attending church back into >> practising Christians. >> >> Checking the local papers or some history book to see whether an epidemic >> was sweeping Workington in 1816/17 which may have prompted parents into >> getting their children baptised may be worth while but also would only >> add >> circumstantial evidence. Multiplets can still be born in times of >> epidemics! >> >> >> Now, is anyone going to try and find some of these baptisees in later >> censuses? Probably not much good for the girls who may well have been >> married by 1851 (1841 is not much good as the ages were rounded down and >> therefore not accurate). David POTTER may be worth a look to see whether >> he was born significantly earlier than 1816. The other surnames are >> fairly >> common so this may prove difficult. >> >> Petra >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 2 >> Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2012 10:46:05 -0600 >> From: "Nancy Prescott" <njp33@att.net> >> Subject: [ENG-CUMBRIA] Multiple Births >> To: <eng-cul-carlisle@rootsweb.com>, "ENG-Cumbria" >> <ENG-CUMBRIA@rootsweb.com> >> Message-ID: <62D53EC21FE94F8789675663CC868E54@NancyPC> >> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; >> reply-type=original >> >> Here is another person who thought they found a lot of multiple births >> from >> the LDS films. nancy >> >> http://old.sswda.org/Archives/England/english_mbirths.html >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 3 >> Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2012 17:07:22 -0000 >> From: "Petra Mitchinson" <Petra.Mitchinson@doctors.org.uk> >> Subject: [ENG-CUMBRIA] Can't find birth >> To: <eng-cumbria@rootsweb.com> >> Message-ID: <2D30BCEF6B7E48A0B5FE4C2F107F25E0@PDesktop> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >> >> Well, under the circumstances, if he can't be found in the GRO indexes, >> he >> may well have been born in Ireland - particularly as the census record >> says so! >> >> Not sure when Irish civil registration started? >> >> Petra >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> Petra, >> >> I have found only ONE baptismal record for three children in 1845. The >> children's birthdates are listed but no place of birth is listed. >> According to US census records, my great great grandfather was born in >> Ireland to English parents. The baptismal record states that he was >> born in 1839, so it is possible that both records are correct. >> Unfortunately, we can find no record in the GRO for any of the >> children. I find no record at the baptismal parish or at its >> predecessor for a marriage of the parents. Lastly, they are not listed >> as a family unit in any English Census record that we can find. I have >> been searching variants. >> >> It appears that this family went back and forth from Ireland to England >> as itinerate workers, so to speak. The father's profession was given >> as a "watch finisher" which means he probably worked from home. I >> think I did find a possible mention, in 1858 in the British Newspaper >> Archive for my ancestor working in Belfast, but no sign of family in >> any online record from that area. The first time my ancestor left >> Ireland for the US was in 1867. He somehow returned to England briefly >> after 1870 and left again in1872 with a family friend (or possible >> family member) from Wolverhampton. Frankly, at this point, nothing >> would surprise me. >> >> I am stuck. Any thoughts? >> >> Bev W. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 4 >> Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2012 10:20:40 +1100 >> From: "B & L Copeland" <lebrac3@bigpond.com> >> Subject: Re: [ENG-CUMBRIA] Can't find birth >> To: <eng-cumbria@rootsweb.com> >> Message-ID: <000c01cce393$9c584530$d508cf90$@com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> >> Hi Petra & Everyone, >> >> Government registration of births, marriages and deaths in Ireland began >> January 1, 1864. Registration of marriages for non-Roman Catholics began >> in >> 1845. Information on births, marriages and deaths in Northern Ireland >> from >> 1922 to the present day can be found under Northern Ireland Vital >> Records. >> ( >> got this from Google) >> >> Leonie. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: eng-cumbria-bounces@rootsweb.com >> [mailto:eng-cumbria-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Petra Mitchinson >> Sent: Sunday, 5 February 2012 4:07 AM >> To: eng-cumbria@rootsweb.com >> Subject: [ENG-CUMBRIA] Can't find birth >> >> Well, under the circumstances, if he can't be found in the GRO indexes, >> he >> may well have been born in Ireland - particularly as the census record >> says >> so! >> >> Not sure when Irish civil registration started? >> >> Petra >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 5 >> Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2012 10:34:46 +1030 >> From: "Joan Gallagher" <joan_gallagher@bigpond.com> >> Subject: Re: [ENG-CUMBRIA] ENG-CUMBRIA Digest, Vol 7, Issue 4 >> To: <eng-cumbria@rootsweb.com> >> Message-ID: <E5CF13C8A0904423804D29D4F0F1BD53@bob91ad6774bde> >> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; >> reply-type=original >> >> >> I haven't seen this particular film Nancy, but it is possible the man was >> a >> Sawyer, not a Lawyer. I know there were times when an "S" could be >> mistakenly taken to be an "L". >> >> Cheers.......Joan >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> Message: 2 >>> Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2012 20:57:00 -0600 >>> From: "Nancy Prescott" <njp33@att.net> >>> Subject: [ENG-CUMBRIA] multiple births >>> To: <eng-cul-carlisle@rootsweb.com>, "ENG-Cumbria" >>> <ENG-CUMBRIA@rootsweb.com> >>> Message-ID: <A57F5ED3935445B49E02FA5F7300E72A@NancyPC> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; >>> reply-type=original >>> >>> One set of quads was born on Friday the 13th of 1813 to a lawyer. You >>> would >>> think he would have his kids baptised on time?? nancy >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> To contact the ENG-CUMBRIA list administrator, send an email to >>> ENG-CUMBRIA-admin@rootsweb.com. >>> >>> To post a message to the ENG-CUMBRIA mailing list, send an email to >>> ENG-CUMBRIA@rootsweb.com. >>> >>> __________________________________________________________ >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> ENG-CUMBRIA-request@rootsweb.com >>> with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the >>> body >>> of the >>> email with no additional text. >>> >>> >>> End of ENG-CUMBRIA Digest, Vol 7, Issue 4 >>> ***************************************** >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 6 >> Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2012 18:52:12 -0600 >> From: "Nancy Prescott" <njp33@att.net> >> Subject: Re: [ENG-CUMBRIA] ENG-CUMBRIA Digest, Vol 7, Issue 4 >> To: <eng-cumbria@rootsweb.com> >> Message-ID: <739BABDEBA3E4EC9907949F1D1620720@NancyPC> >> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; >> reply-type=original >> >> It actually had "attorney". >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Joan Gallagher >> Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2012 6:04 PM >> To: eng-cumbria@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Re: [ENG-CUMBRIA] ENG-CUMBRIA Digest, Vol 7, Issue 4 >> >> >> I haven't seen this particular film Nancy, but it is possible the man was >> a >> Sawyer, not a Lawyer. I know there were times when an "S" could be >> mistakenly taken to be an "L". >> >> Cheers.......Joan >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> Message: 2 >>> Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2012 20:57:00 -0600 >>> From: "Nancy Prescott" <njp33@att.net> >>> Subject: [ENG-CUMBRIA] multiple births >>> To: <eng-cul-carlisle@rootsweb.com>, "ENG-Cumbria" >>> <ENG-CUMBRIA@rootsweb.com> >>> Message-ID: <A57F5ED3935445B49E02FA5F7300E72A@NancyPC> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; >>> reply-type=original >>> >>> One set of quads was born on Friday the 13th of 1813 to a lawyer. You >>> would >>> think he would have his kids baptised on time?? nancy >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> To contact the ENG-CUMBRIA list administrator, send an email to >>> ENG-CUMBRIA-admin@rootsweb.com. >>> >>> To post a message to the ENG-CUMBRIA mailing list, send an email to >>> ENG-CUMBRIA@rootsweb.com. >>> >>> __________________________________________________________ >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> ENG-CUMBRIA-request@rootsweb.com >>> with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the >>> body >>> of the >>> email with no additional text. >>> >>> >>> End of ENG-CUMBRIA Digest, Vol 7, Issue 4 >>> ***************************************** >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> ENG-CUMBRIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> To contact the ENG-CUMBRIA list administrator, send an email to >> ENG-CUMBRIA-admin@rootsweb.com. >> >> To post a message to the ENG-CUMBRIA mailing list, send an email to >> ENG-CUMBRIA@rootsweb.com. >> >> __________________________________________________________ >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> ENG-CUMBRIA-request@rootsweb.com >> with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the >> body >> of the >> email with no additional text. >> >> >> End of ENG-CUMBRIA Digest, Vol 7, Issue 6 >> ***************************************** > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > ENG-CUMBRIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Petra, according to the Family Search website the David POTTER who was baptised on 28 October 1816 died on 29 October 1816. Unfortunately no age given. Cheers.......Joan ----- Original Message ----- From: <eng-cumbria-request@rootsweb.com> To: <eng-cumbria@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2012 6:30 PM Subject: ENG-CUMBRIA Digest, Vol 7, Issue 6 > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Multiple births and baptisms (Petra Mitchinson) > 2. Multiple Births (Nancy Prescott) > 3. Can't find birth (Petra Mitchinson) > 4. Re: Can't find birth (B & L Copeland) > 5. Re: ENG-CUMBRIA Digest, Vol 7, Issue 4 (Joan Gallagher) > 6. Re: ENG-CUMBRIA Digest, Vol 7, Issue 4 (Nancy Prescott) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2012 16:23:59 -0000 > From: "Petra Mitchinson" <Petra.Mitchinson@doctors.org.uk> > Subject: [ENG-CUMBRIA] Multiple births and baptisms > To: <eng-cumbria@rootsweb.com> > Cc: eng-cul-carlisle@rootsweb.com > Message-ID: <F7FF3C5DA5E44BEBBA9F41AFA0F397A6@PDesktop> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Nancy has kindly sent me images of the following sets of multiple > baptisms: > > 06 Aug 1816 William, Joseph, John and Isabella, children of William > (deceased) and Dinah STORY of Workington, Shoemaker. Minister: Anth > J...... I couldn't see it stated anywhere when the father had died. > > 24 Nov 1816 William, Phebe and Robert, children of William & Rebecca > JACKSON of Workington, Watchmaker. Minister: Anth. J. DAY.... > > 28 Oct 1816 Agnes, Margaret and David, children of David & Eleanor POTTER > of Workington, Mariner. Minister: Ant. J...... > > 17 Dec 1817 Sarah, and 20 Dec 1817 William, both children of Alexander and > Jane WILKINSON of Workington, Miner. Minister: Jona..... > > 26 Dec 1817 Elizabeth, daughter of Japhet and Mary FLETCHER of Workington. > Occupation column: Adult, School Mistress. Minister: Pe....... > 26 Dec 1817 Mary, daughter of Japhet and Mary FLETCHER of Workington. > Occupation column: Adult, Spinster. Minister: Pe..... > > And also: > > Burials 1817: 30 Oct Thomas, 02 Nov Mary and Nancy, all children of John > HOLDEN, Mariner of Workington, all 2 weeks old. > > > My comments: > > For the first three sets of multiple baptisms, there is no indication > whether these were multiplets or siblings of different ages. > > The two children baptised 3 days apart - I should have thought that if > they had been twins, the parents would have had them baptised on the same > day. A more likely scenario is that Sarah was ill and had an emergency > baptism, and the other child was done in church the following Sunday > (although I don't know what weekday the 20 Dec 1817 was). > > The FLETCHERs were adult baptisms of two sisters, so there is absolutely > no need for them to be twins (although the could be) - but they would have > been born many years before 1817. > > As far as the burials go, these were indisputably triplets as they all had > the same age! Nancy, you didn't give us a baptism for them - perhaps they > never made it to baptism? > > > Nancy, seeing whether the vicar was a new broom who was sweeping well will > add to circumstantial evidence but will not be absolute proof. Equally, > there could have been some religious event in town which converted some > people who previously had not bothered with attending church back into > practising Christians. > > Checking the local papers or some history book to see whether an epidemic > was sweeping Workington in 1816/17 which may have prompted parents into > getting their children baptised may be worth while but also would only add > circumstantial evidence. Multiplets can still be born in times of > epidemics! > > > Now, is anyone going to try and find some of these baptisees in later > censuses? Probably not much good for the girls who may well have been > married by 1851 (1841 is not much good as the ages were rounded down and > therefore not accurate). David POTTER may be worth a look to see whether > he was born significantly earlier than 1816. The other surnames are fairly > common so this may prove difficult. > > Petra > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2012 10:46:05 -0600 > From: "Nancy Prescott" <njp33@att.net> > Subject: [ENG-CUMBRIA] Multiple Births > To: <eng-cul-carlisle@rootsweb.com>, "ENG-Cumbria" > <ENG-CUMBRIA@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID: <62D53EC21FE94F8789675663CC868E54@NancyPC> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > > Here is another person who thought they found a lot of multiple births > from > the LDS films. nancy > > http://old.sswda.org/Archives/England/english_mbirths.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2012 17:07:22 -0000 > From: "Petra Mitchinson" <Petra.Mitchinson@doctors.org.uk> > Subject: [ENG-CUMBRIA] Can't find birth > To: <eng-cumbria@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID: <2D30BCEF6B7E48A0B5FE4C2F107F25E0@PDesktop> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Well, under the circumstances, if he can't be found in the GRO indexes, he > may well have been born in Ireland - particularly as the census record > says so! > > Not sure when Irish civil registration started? > > Petra > > > -----Original Message----- > > Petra, > > I have found only ONE baptismal record for three children in 1845. The > children's birthdates are listed but no place of birth is listed. > According to US census records, my great great grandfather was born in > Ireland to English parents. The baptismal record states that he was > born in 1839, so it is possible that both records are correct. > Unfortunately, we can find no record in the GRO for any of the > children. I find no record at the baptismal parish or at its > predecessor for a marriage of the parents. Lastly, they are not listed > as a family unit in any English Census record that we can find. I have > been searching variants. > > It appears that this family went back and forth from Ireland to England > as itinerate workers, so to speak. The father's profession was given > as a "watch finisher" which means he probably worked from home. I > think I did find a possible mention, in 1858 in the British Newspaper > Archive for my ancestor working in Belfast, but no sign of family in > any online record from that area. The first time my ancestor left > Ireland for the US was in 1867. He somehow returned to England briefly > after 1870 and left again in1872 with a family friend (or possible > family member) from Wolverhampton. Frankly, at this point, nothing > would surprise me. > > I am stuck. Any thoughts? > > Bev W. > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2012 10:20:40 +1100 > From: "B & L Copeland" <lebrac3@bigpond.com> > Subject: Re: [ENG-CUMBRIA] Can't find birth > To: <eng-cumbria@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID: <000c01cce393$9c584530$d508cf90$@com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Hi Petra & Everyone, > > Government registration of births, marriages and deaths in Ireland began > January 1, 1864. Registration of marriages for non-Roman Catholics began > in > 1845. Information on births, marriages and deaths in Northern Ireland from > 1922 to the present day can be found under Northern Ireland Vital Records. > ( > got this from Google) > > Leonie. > > -----Original Message----- > From: eng-cumbria-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:eng-cumbria-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Petra Mitchinson > Sent: Sunday, 5 February 2012 4:07 AM > To: eng-cumbria@rootsweb.com > Subject: [ENG-CUMBRIA] Can't find birth > > Well, under the circumstances, if he can't be found in the GRO indexes, he > may well have been born in Ireland - particularly as the census record > says > so! > > Not sure when Irish civil registration started? > > Petra > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2012 10:34:46 +1030 > From: "Joan Gallagher" <joan_gallagher@bigpond.com> > Subject: Re: [ENG-CUMBRIA] ENG-CUMBRIA Digest, Vol 7, Issue 4 > To: <eng-cumbria@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID: <E5CF13C8A0904423804D29D4F0F1BD53@bob91ad6774bde> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > > > I haven't seen this particular film Nancy, but it is possible the man was > a > Sawyer, not a Lawyer. I know there were times when an "S" could be > mistakenly taken to be an "L". > > Cheers.......Joan >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 2 >> Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2012 20:57:00 -0600 >> From: "Nancy Prescott" <njp33@att.net> >> Subject: [ENG-CUMBRIA] multiple births >> To: <eng-cul-carlisle@rootsweb.com>, "ENG-Cumbria" >> <ENG-CUMBRIA@rootsweb.com> >> Message-ID: <A57F5ED3935445B49E02FA5F7300E72A@NancyPC> >> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; >> reply-type=original >> >> One set of quads was born on Friday the 13th of 1813 to a lawyer. You >> would >> think he would have his kids baptised on time?? nancy >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> To contact the ENG-CUMBRIA list administrator, send an email to >> ENG-CUMBRIA-admin@rootsweb.com. >> >> To post a message to the ENG-CUMBRIA mailing list, send an email to >> ENG-CUMBRIA@rootsweb.com. >> >> __________________________________________________________ >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> ENG-CUMBRIA-request@rootsweb.com >> with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the >> body >> of the >> email with no additional text. >> >> >> End of ENG-CUMBRIA Digest, Vol 7, Issue 4 >> ***************************************** > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2012 18:52:12 -0600 > From: "Nancy Prescott" <njp33@att.net> > Subject: Re: [ENG-CUMBRIA] ENG-CUMBRIA Digest, Vol 7, Issue 4 > To: <eng-cumbria@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID: <739BABDEBA3E4EC9907949F1D1620720@NancyPC> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > > It actually had "attorney". > > -----Original Message----- > From: Joan Gallagher > Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2012 6:04 PM > To: eng-cumbria@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [ENG-CUMBRIA] ENG-CUMBRIA Digest, Vol 7, Issue 4 > > > I haven't seen this particular film Nancy, but it is possible the man was > a > Sawyer, not a Lawyer. I know there were times when an "S" could be > mistakenly taken to be an "L". > > Cheers.......Joan >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 2 >> Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2012 20:57:00 -0600 >> From: "Nancy Prescott" <njp33@att.net> >> Subject: [ENG-CUMBRIA] multiple births >> To: <eng-cul-carlisle@rootsweb.com>, "ENG-Cumbria" >> <ENG-CUMBRIA@rootsweb.com> >> Message-ID: <A57F5ED3935445B49E02FA5F7300E72A@NancyPC> >> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; >> reply-type=original >> >> One set of quads was born on Friday the 13th of 1813 to a lawyer. You >> would >> think he would have his kids baptised on time?? nancy >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> To contact the ENG-CUMBRIA list administrator, send an email to >> ENG-CUMBRIA-admin@rootsweb.com. >> >> To post a message to the ENG-CUMBRIA mailing list, send an email to >> ENG-CUMBRIA@rootsweb.com. >> >> __________________________________________________________ >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> ENG-CUMBRIA-request@rootsweb.com >> with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the >> body >> of the >> email with no additional text. >> >> >> End of ENG-CUMBRIA Digest, Vol 7, Issue 4 >> ***************************************** > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > ENG-CUMBRIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------ > > To contact the ENG-CUMBRIA list administrator, send an email to > ENG-CUMBRIA-admin@rootsweb.com. > > To post a message to the ENG-CUMBRIA mailing list, send an email to > ENG-CUMBRIA@rootsweb.com. > > __________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > ENG-CUMBRIA-request@rootsweb.com > with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the body > of the > email with no additional text. > > > End of ENG-CUMBRIA Digest, Vol 7, Issue 6 > *****************************************