Recently while checking the St. Bees IGI register for the marriage of my g-g-g-grandparents I came across an entry for the birth and christening of a baby. It read: Sarah NICHOLSON or GARRAWAY born April 10, 1811 christened June 9, 1811 parents: Alexander Garraway and Grace Nicholson Now then, the register also indicates that this Alexander and Grace were married on June 9, 1811, the same day their daughter was Christened. Question is, do you think this was likely? I have a relative who has a bit of a rough time accepting this child as an ancestor because of this situation - perhaps it's the whole out of wedlock thing! Perhaps also, is my own perception of marriage ceremonies. White dress, guests, dinner etc... In general would the marriage ceremony from 1811 be similar to a registry office procedure if the bride and groom were not of wealth? Up until my recent discovery about little Sarah, Alexander and Grace's "firstborn" had been a boy, William in 1816, five years AFTER Sarah. Amanda

Dear Amanda, I cannot imagine that two couples both with the same quite distinctive names were present at the church on the same day for different reasons. It was most likely a case of killing two birds with one stone but obviously the vicar refrained from baptising their two month old baby as legitimate. I looked up the printed copies of the St. Bees Parish Registers and the difference between the entries though is interesting. At Sarah's baptism the baby is described as "base" and the couple are described as "of Gins" a district on the south side of Whitehaven with no profession given. At the marriage Alexander is described as a Miner with no abode given, the witnesses being Anthony Fisher and Sarah Nicholson. Gins was in a mining area which makes it more likely but it is a pity the two entries were not more similar in their information. 9th June 1811 was a Sunday according to Datecalc and probably the only day of the week that Alexander had off. No doubt they wore their Sunday best and made a celebration of it but I doubt it was as lavish as we might expect today and definitely no honeymoon if Alexander had to be at work the next day and Grace had the baby to look after. Grace may well be the daughter of William and Elizabeth Nicholson, wagoner of Sandwith, baptised 27 March 1789 at St. Bees. She had a sister Sarah baptised there 27 December 1791 who may have been her witness at the marriage. Alexander Garraway is probably the one living at 8 Bells Lane, Preston Quarter, Whitehaven on the 1851 census. By then he was aged 60, a widower and a coal miner by trade. He had a married daughter Mary Harrison and family living with him as well as a son John but unfortunately no daughter Sarah which might have proved the case. Gins, Preston Quarter and Sandwith are all near to each other between St. Bees and Whitehaven. Preston Quarter is a description of an area of St. Bees parish whilst the other two are specific places. I'm afraid we have to get used to some of our ancestors anticipating the marriage service or getting married just in the nick of time so I hope your relative will accept this might have been the case. After all, it was hardly the baby's fault and in this case it seems the parents did the decent thing. I hope this helps and will be interested in what others have to say. There were no further baptisms for children of Alexander and Grace at St. Bees. Jill > parents: Alexander Garraway and Grace Nicholson > Now then, the register also indicates that this Alexander and Grace were married on June 9, 1811, the same day their daughter was Christened.>

My thoughts too, Jill. And maybe Chris or someone can answer, but wasn't it fairly common at some point in history for some women to become pregnant and then get married........to show that they could bear children? Don't know where I read that, but maybe someone else could comment. And I don't think it was as big a sin as it was in the 1900's. As you point out, there were precious few days off work.....sometimes only at Christmas. Heather > Dear Amanda, > > I cannot imagine that two couples both with the same quite distinctive names > were present at the church on the same day for different reasons. It was > most likely a case of killing two birds with one stone but obviously the > vicar refrained from baptising their two month old baby as legitimate. > > I looked up the printed copies of the St. Bees Parish Registers and the > difference between the entries though is interesting. At Sarah's baptism > the baby is described as "base" and the couple are described as "of Gins" a > district on the south side of Whitehaven with no profession given. At the > marriage Alexander is described as a Miner with no abode given, the > witnesses being Anthony Fisher and Sarah Nicholson. Gins was in a mining > area which makes it more likely but it is a pity the two entries were not > more similar in their information. > > 9th June 1811 was a Sunday according to Datecalc and probably the only day > of the week that Alexander had off. No doubt they wore their Sunday best > and made a celebration of it but I doubt it was as lavish as we might expect > today and definitely no honeymoon if Alexander had to be at work the next > day and Grace had the baby to look after. > > Grace may well be the daughter of William and Elizabeth Nicholson, wagoner > of Sandwith, baptised 27 March 1789 at St. Bees. She had a sister Sarah > baptised there 27 December 1791 who may have been her witness at the > marriage. > > Alexander Garraway is probably the one living at 8 Bells Lane, Preston > Quarter, Whitehaven on the 1851 census. By then he was aged 60, a widower > and a coal miner by trade. He had a married daughter Mary Harrison and > family living with him as well as a son John but unfortunately no daughter > Sarah which might have proved the case. > > Gins, Preston Quarter and Sandwith are all near to each other between St. > Bees and Whitehaven. Preston Quarter is a description of an area of St. > Bees parish whilst the other two are specific places. > > I'm afraid we have to get used to some of our ancestors anticipating the > marriage service or getting married just in the nick of time so I hope your > relative will accept this might have been the case. After all, it was > hardly the baby's fault and in this case it seems the parents did the decent > thing. > > I hope this helps and will be interested in what others have to say. > > There were no further baptisms for children of Alexander and Grace at St. > Bees. > > Jill > > > parents: Alexander Garraway and Grace Nicholson > > Now then, the register also indicates that this Alexander and Grace were > married on June 9, 1811, the same day their daughter was Christened.> > > > > ============================== > To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 > >

Most of my maternal side came from North Yorkshire. It was very common for the bride to be pregnant at the time of marriage. I believe this is a Viking thing and, as you said, a woman had to prove her fertility. The practise of bolstering was quite common i.e. placing a bolster down the middle of the bed of betrothed couples!!! Never knew that to stop anything!! Most practices of course had an economic motive - perhaps the couple just needed time to find a place to live. As we have a new group just to let you know my Cumberland/Westmoreland families: GRAINGER (Cockermouth/Carlisle) and HOWE (Carlisle). Regards. Macha in NZ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Heather Figueroa" <heatherfig@rogers.com> To: <ENG-CUL-COPELAND-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2003 8:31 AM Subject: Re: [CUL-COP] NICHOLSON OR GARRAWAY > My thoughts too, Jill. And maybe Chris or someone can answer, but > wasn't it fairly common at some point in history for some women to > become pregnant and then get married........to show that they could bear > children? Don't know where I read that, but maybe someone else could > comment. And I don't think it was as big a sin as it was in the 1900's. > As you point out, there were precious few days off work.....sometimes > only at Christmas. > > Heather > > > Dear Amanda, > > > > I cannot imagine that two couples both with the same quite distinctive > names > > were present at the church on the same day for different reasons. It > was > > most likely a case of killing two birds with one stone but obviously > the > > vicar refrained from baptising their two month old baby as legitimate. > > > > I looked up the printed copies of the St. Bees Parish Registers and > the > > difference between the entries though is interesting. At Sarah's > baptism > > the baby is described as "base" and the couple are described as "of > Gins" a > > district on the south side of Whitehaven with no profession given. > At the > > marriage Alexander is described as a Miner with no abode given, the > > witnesses being Anthony Fisher and Sarah Nicholson. Gins was in a > mining > > area which makes it more likely but it is a pity the two entries were > not > > more similar in their information. > > > > 9th June 1811 was a Sunday according to Datecalc and probably the only > day > > of the week that Alexander had off. No doubt they wore their Sunday > best > > and made a celebration of it but I doubt it was as lavish as we might > expect > > today and definitely no honeymoon if Alexander had to be at work the > next > > day and Grace had the baby to look after. > > > > Grace may well be the daughter of William and Elizabeth Nicholson, > wagoner > > of Sandwith, baptised 27 March 1789 at St. Bees. She had a sister > Sarah > > baptised there 27 December 1791 who may have been her witness at the > > marriage. > > > > Alexander Garraway is probably the one living at 8 Bells Lane, Preston > > Quarter, Whitehaven on the 1851 census. By then he was aged 60, a > widower > > and a coal miner by trade. He had a married daughter Mary Harrison > and > > family living with him as well as a son John but unfortunately no > daughter > > Sarah which might have proved the case. > > > > Gins, Preston Quarter and Sandwith are all near to each other between > St. > > Bees and Whitehaven. Preston Quarter is a description of an area of > St. > > Bees parish whilst the other two are specific places. > > > > I'm afraid we have to get used to some of our ancestors anticipating > the > > marriage service or getting married just in the nick of time so I hope > your > > relative will accept this might have been the case. After all, it > was > > hardly the baby's fault and in this case it seems the parents did the > decent > > thing. > > > > I hope this helps and will be interested in what others have to say. > > > > There were no further baptisms for children of Alexander and Grace at > St. > > Bees. > > > > Jill > > > > > parents: Alexander Garraway and Grace Nicholson > > > Now then, the register also indicates that this Alexander and Grace > were > > married on June 9, 1811, the same day their daughter was Christened.> > > > > > > > > ============================== > > To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy > records, go to: > > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 > > > > > > > ============================== > To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 > >