Hi All Please try to remember NOT to include the whole message when posting a reply. I did ask in the welcome letter that you cut and paste as a preferred alternative. There are various reasons for this. One very simple one is that it cuts down on the length and frequency of Digests. Thanks. Any replies to me please, not to the list. Chris chris@dickinson.uk.net

I would like to know about Matty Benn's bridge also we used to walk up to there and I have a very fine photo which I took of my mother, brothers and cousin, I was about twelve at the time I think Dave did anybody in your family ever use the phrase "Get away to Wilton"as a sort of reply to something you disbelieve or are my family strange!! Also the reply to where's Wilton was The Fell bottom> I do know where Wilton is, turn off just after the Florence mine, or off Cold Fell Patricia ----- Original Message ----- From: Dave Banks <DavidKenneth@banks81.freeserve.co.uk> To: <ENG-CUL-COPELAND-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, October 06, 2002 7:25 PM Subject: [CUL-COP] Re: [CUL] OT: Goosey Tyson > Steve, > Goosey Tyson's Cave is a natural cave, cut in a limestone > inlier, on the edge of the Lake District fells, and is the only known > cave in West Cumbria. The local legend has him living in it as a > recluse/hermit, hence the pots and pans story. It is, for most of its > extent, very low and cramped, and was explored by local cavers, who > accurately surveyed it. Although the downstream side is just a stream > appearing from a small hill containing the quarry, the place where the > water enters the cave, is still open, and has two small entrances side > by side. > I was there about a month ago, introducing my twin five five year old > grandsons to the legend, and the local features that I had visited > during my younger days, on one of our many "missions". > Got anything on Matty Benn's Bridge? > > Dave > (Florence Mine Heritage Centre, Egremont) > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "S S" <sks.2513@virgin.net> > To: <CUMBERLAND-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Saturday, October 05, 2002 10:24 PM > Subject: [CUL] OT: Goosey Tyson > > > Came across this story in a old Cumbria ( 1969 ) > Steve > > > > MENTION the name of Goosey Tyson in the village of Hale, or the > neigh­bouring hamlet of Wilton, and the older folk will tell you all > about > him. They will show you his cave near the old Mousegill Quarry, and > there > are some who are pre­pared to say that they knew someone else who saw > the > cave when it was fully equipped with cupboards and shelves, which > Goosey > used. The cave, the entrance to which has now fallen in, is still > there; > whether it was used I do not know. > On the morning of October 7, 1840, the farm servant of Mr. John > Mossop, > yeoman, of Carleton Lodge near Egremont, went out to a stubble field > called > Low Croft, to feed his master's geese. There should have been forty > geese in > the croft, but twenty-nine were missing. The man hurried back to the > farm > and told Mr. Mossop. After a search twelve of the missing geese were > discovered about half-a-mile away from the house, but the remainder > had > vanished. > Mr. Mossop was a member of the "Association for the Prosecution of > Felons in > the Parish of St. John, Beckermet," his estate being 'in that Parish. > This > organisa­tion very quickly came to his aid, and published a notice of > a > reward of £5 for information that ·w6uld lead to the conviction of the > offenders. Shortly after this notice was made public, a letter was > pushed > under Mr. Mossop's door and as a consequence he set off for Whitehaven > where > he obtained a search warrant, which he placed into the hands of John > Douglas, a police officer at Whitehaven. > That evening Douglas, with a constable named Henry Bragg from > Egremont, went > to Wilton about two miles from Carleton Lodge. They concealed > themselves > near Brackenthwaite farm and sat down to listen. Not long after they > heard > the noise of geese, and visited an out-building where they found some > geese. > >From a description supplied by John Mossop, the police officer came > to the > conclusion that these geese belonged to Mr. Mossop, who was now sent > for and > who identified them. > At about four o'clock in the morning Douglas hammered on the door of > Brack­enthwaite and Henry Tyson, son of the owner, answered the door. > He was > asked to bring his father who appeared, and wanted to know what all > the > bother was about. He was asked how many geese he owned. He said he did > not > know. A search was made of the premises and nine geese were found in a > stable, and eight in an out­house which Mr. Mossop claimed were his > property. > Henry Tyson, senior, was arrested and taken to Whitehaven to be lodged > in > the "lock-up." On the way he became rather garrulous and exclaimed to > Douglas: "John Mossop might come to my house and take away a pig and > say it > was his." His son had previously told him that the geese were being > taken to > Mr. Mossop's house, and Tyson had replied, "If John Mossop takes away > any of > my geese, I'll trim him." > Mr. Tyson was brought before the White-haven magistrates and Mr. > Mossop told > the Bench that he identified the geese from some peculiar marks; they > also > had larger and longer necks than the usual type because they were bred > from > a Chinese goose. Six of the geese were paraded in the court-yard of > the > public office at the rear of the court room, and after the magistrates > had > examined them they decided there was a case against the prisoner, who > was > then released on bail to appear at the next Quarter Sessions in > Cockermouth. > > THE subsequent trial on October 20, 1840, aroused a tremendous amount > of > interest, and a great number of people flocked in to Cockermouth > hoping to > gain admission to the court. Every corner and avenue of the court room > was > crammed with spectators, and so closely were they crowded together > that > witnesses, when called, had the greatest difficulty in pushing their > way to > the front of the court. A hush descended on the crowd when the name of > the > prisoner was called and he stood at the bar. > He was a yeoman farmer, and it was most unusual to find such a man > charged > with so serious an offence. He had three sons and four daughters. As > the > spectators looked at him they saw a man aged between 60 or 70 years of > age, > slender made, with a pale and serious cast of countenance; in fact he > was > not a bad specimen as far as appear­ances went of an intelligent > statesman > of the county, the class in society to which he belonged. > Both parties were represented by members of the legal profession. The > hearing, which was one of the longest ever known, started at 11 a.m. > The > arguments were some times rather long and tedious, but there were > incidents > that rocked the court with laughter. Giving evidence, Mr. Mossop said > that > when the stolen geese were replaced in the field with the remainder > they > were all very friendly and showed great forillaess for one another; > had they > been strangers they would have been quarrel­some. > Willy Barnes, his farm servant, gave his evidence and said he had > brought > six of the geese to the court. The chairman then asked for them to be > produced and after much shoving and pushing through the throng of > spectators > the geese were brought forward in a potter's crate. The geese were > unaccustomed to such surroundings and attempted to escape, and > cackling > loudly sent forth a shower of feathers much to the annoyance of > several > august gentlemen - the spectators loved it. > The crate was placed on a table in view of the magistrates, but had to > be > removed quickly because the geese, obviously deter­mined to escape, > now > soiled some books, a number of gentlemen's hats, and the coat of one > gentleman suffered a similar fate. A scene like this had never been > witnessed in a court room before. > BETSY Speight, house-keeper to John Mossop, said she had often fed the > geese > and could recognise them. Under cross-examination by the prisoner's > counsel > she was made to feel rather uncomfortable when asked whether she sat > and > took a glass, with her master. She said she did not, but admitted to > having > a cup of tea sometimes with him. She also admitted that her husband, a > sailor some fourteen years before, had gone out of the house, and she > had > never seen or heard of him since. > Tyson had a number of his neighbours from Wilton to speak for him. > They said > they had known him many years, and had never known him to commit a > misdeed. > Elizabeth Jackson of Wilton said she had ordered a goose from Mr. > Tyson for > Christmas, and she had seen geese on his farm before Mossop had his > geese > stolen. > At 4 p.m. the jury retired under the care of a bailiff, and were > locked in a > room at the Globe Inn at Cockermouth. For three hours the jury were > away, > while a large crowd gathered in front of the Globe Inn, determined to > hear > the verdict before they went home. At 7 p.m. the jury came out of > their > room, and went to the assembly room in the Globe where the magistrates > were > wining and dining. The foreman of the jury pronounced the prisoner > guilty. > Henry Tyson, yeoman, was sentenced to six months' hard labour, one > month to > be spent in solitary confinement. He appeared shaken by the sentence, > but no > doubt found some consolation in the thought that many men for much > less had > been trans­ported for seven years or more. > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.394 / Virus Database: 224 - Release Date: 03/10/02 > > ______________________________ > > > > ============================== > To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 >

Steve, Goosey Tyson's Cave is a natural cave, cut in a limestone inlier, on the edge of the Lake District fells, and is the only known cave in West Cumbria. The local legend has him living in it as a recluse/hermit, hence the pots and pans story. It is, for most of its extent, very low and cramped, and was explored by local cavers, who accurately surveyed it. Although the downstream side is just a stream appearing from a small hill containing the quarry, the place where the water enters the cave, is still open, and has two small entrances side by side. I was there about a month ago, introducing my twin five five year old grandsons to the legend, and the local features that I had visited during my younger days, on one of our many "missions". Got anything on Matty Benn's Bridge? Dave (Florence Mine Heritage Centre, Egremont) ----- Original Message ----- From: "S S" <sks.2513@virgin.net> To: <CUMBERLAND-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, October 05, 2002 10:24 PM Subject: [CUL] OT: Goosey Tyson Came across this story in a old Cumbria ( 1969 ) Steve > MENTION the name of Goosey Tyson in the village of Hale, or the neigh­bouring hamlet of Wilton, and the older folk will tell you all about him. They will show you his cave near the old Mousegill Quarry, and there are some who are pre­pared to say that they knew someone else who saw the cave when it was fully equipped with cupboards and shelves, which Goosey used. The cave, the entrance to which has now fallen in, is still there; whether it was used I do not know. On the morning of October 7, 1840, the farm servant of Mr. John Mossop, yeoman, of Carleton Lodge near Egremont, went out to a stubble field called Low Croft, to feed his master's geese. There should have been forty geese in the croft, but twenty-nine were missing. The man hurried back to the farm and told Mr. Mossop. After a search twelve of the missing geese were discovered about half-a-mile away from the house, but the remainder had vanished. Mr. Mossop was a member of the "Association for the Prosecution of Felons in the Parish of St. John, Beckermet," his estate being 'in that Parish. This organisa­tion very quickly came to his aid, and published a notice of a reward of £5 for information that ·w6uld lead to the conviction of the offenders. Shortly after this notice was made public, a letter was pushed under Mr. Mossop's door and as a consequence he set off for Whitehaven where he obtained a search warrant, which he placed into the hands of John Douglas, a police officer at Whitehaven. That evening Douglas, with a constable named Henry Bragg from Egremont, went to Wilton about two miles from Carleton Lodge. They concealed themselves near Brackenthwaite farm and sat down to listen. Not long after they heard the noise of geese, and visited an out-building where they found some geese. >From a description supplied by John Mossop, the police officer came to the conclusion that these geese belonged to Mr. Mossop, who was now sent for and who identified them. At about four o'clock in the morning Douglas hammered on the door of Brack­enthwaite and Henry Tyson, son of the owner, answered the door. He was asked to bring his father who appeared, and wanted to know what all the bother was about. He was asked how many geese he owned. He said he did not know. A search was made of the premises and nine geese were found in a stable, and eight in an out­house which Mr. Mossop claimed were his property. Henry Tyson, senior, was arrested and taken to Whitehaven to be lodged in the "lock-up." On the way he became rather garrulous and exclaimed to Douglas: "John Mossop might come to my house and take away a pig and say it was his." His son had previously told him that the geese were being taken to Mr. Mossop's house, and Tyson had replied, "If John Mossop takes away any of my geese, I'll trim him." Mr. Tyson was brought before the White-haven magistrates and Mr. Mossop told the Bench that he identified the geese from some peculiar marks; they also had larger and longer necks than the usual type because they were bred from a Chinese goose. Six of the geese were paraded in the court-yard of the public office at the rear of the court room, and after the magistrates had examined them they decided there was a case against the prisoner, who was then released on bail to appear at the next Quarter Sessions in Cockermouth. THE subsequent trial on October 20, 1840, aroused a tremendous amount of interest, and a great number of people flocked in to Cockermouth hoping to gain admission to the court. Every corner and avenue of the court room was crammed with spectators, and so closely were they crowded together that witnesses, when called, had the greatest difficulty in pushing their way to the front of the court. A hush descended on the crowd when the name of the prisoner was called and he stood at the bar. He was a yeoman farmer, and it was most unusual to find such a man charged with so serious an offence. He had three sons and four daughters. As the spectators looked at him they saw a man aged between 60 or 70 years of age, slender made, with a pale and serious cast of countenance; in fact he was not a bad specimen as far as appear­ances went of an intelligent statesman of the county, the class in society to which he belonged. Both parties were represented by members of the legal profession. The hearing, which was one of the longest ever known, started at 11 a.m. The arguments were some times rather long and tedious, but there were incidents that rocked the court with laughter. Giving evidence, Mr. Mossop said that when the stolen geese were replaced in the field with the remainder they were all very friendly and showed great forillaess for one another; had they been strangers they would have been quarrel­some. Willy Barnes, his farm servant, gave his evidence and said he had brought six of the geese to the court. The chairman then asked for them to be produced and after much shoving and pushing through the throng of spectators the geese were brought forward in a potter's crate. The geese were unaccustomed to such surroundings and attempted to escape, and cackling loudly sent forth a shower of feathers much to the annoyance of several august gentlemen - the spectators loved it. The crate was placed on a table in view of the magistrates, but had to be removed quickly because the geese, obviously deter­mined to escape, now soiled some books, a number of gentlemen's hats, and the coat of one gentleman suffered a similar fate. A scene like this had never been witnessed in a court room before. BETSY Speight, house-keeper to John Mossop, said she had often fed the geese and could recognise them. Under cross-examination by the prisoner's counsel she was made to feel rather uncomfortable when asked whether she sat and took a glass, with her master. She said she did not, but admitted to having a cup of tea sometimes with him. She also admitted that her husband, a sailor some fourteen years before, had gone out of the house, and she had never seen or heard of him since. Tyson had a number of his neighbours from Wilton to speak for him. They said they had known him many years, and had never known him to commit a misdeed. Elizabeth Jackson of Wilton said she had ordered a goose from Mr. Tyson for Christmas, and she had seen geese on his farm before Mossop had his geese stolen. At 4 p.m. the jury retired under the care of a bailiff, and were locked in a room at the Globe Inn at Cockermouth. For three hours the jury were away, while a large crowd gathered in front of the Globe Inn, determined to hear the verdict before they went home. At 7 p.m. the jury came out of their room, and went to the assembly room in the Globe where the magistrates were wining and dining. The foreman of the jury pronounced the prisoner guilty. Henry Tyson, yeoman, was sentenced to six months' hard labour, one month to be spent in solitary confinement. He appeared shaken by the sentence, but no doubt found some consolation in the thought that many men for much less had been trans­ported for seven years or more. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.394 / Virus Database: 224 - Release Date: 03/10/02 ______________________________

Hi Diana, The CFHS 1851 Census book gives the number as 72, Back Row, New Houses. Occupants were:- H John Devlin 39 Coal Miner Ireland W Elizabeth 40 Ireland D Ann 18 Thread Spinner Whitehaven S James 14 Coal Miner Whitehaven S William 9 Scholar Whitehaven S John 5 Scholar Whitehaven S Edward 2 Whitehaven D Margaret 12 Scholar Whitehaven As you can see, he'd been here since 1833 at least. There was a bit of unrest amongst English colliers, and Irishmen were brought over in the coal boats that traded with Ireland, to foce the wages down. Many Irish had been working in the coastal collieries for years before the Potato Famine in the late 1840's. It was very common, not only for brothers to come over, but fathers and uncles, and sometimes whole families. It is well known that 60 miners from Avoca in Co.Wicklow, came over and settled in Cleator Moor and Frizington. I have been trying to list them all for some time now. In iron-ore mines inland, it was young Irish girls who came to work in the mills in the early 1800's, who then wrote home telling of many jobs in the mines, both coal and iron, and by the 1860's over two-thirds of the population of Cleator Moor, were Irish. Incidentally, the author of "Children of the Pits", Ray Devlin, is descended from one of these branches. He lives in Whitehaven, in what was once Lord Lonsdale's mansion, but has now been converted into luxury apartments. Hope this helps, Dave (Florence Mine Heritage Centre, Egremont) ----- Original Message ----- From: "diana smith" <diana.smith@ntlworld.com> To: <DavidKenneth@banks81.freeserve.co.uk> Sent: Sunday, October 06, 2002 1:32 PM Subject: RE: [CUL] Ron Taylor's 1851 census database > Hello Dave, > > Many thanks for the info re John Devlin, miner. It could be "my" chap. > Ages are not always accurate are they? Was the John Devlin you found living > alone, or as a lodger, or what? Were there any other Devlins? Would you > know whether it was common for a few lads from the same family to come over > to England together, for work, or would they be more likely to come alone? > > Sorry to inundate you with these questions, but if you are at a mine > heritage centre you are probably the right person to ask! > > thanks again > > Diana > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Dave Banks [mailto:DavidKenneth@banks81.freeserve.co.uk] > Sent: 05 October 2002 23:07 > To: CUMBERLAND-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [CUL] Ron Taylor's 1851 census database > > > Hi Diana, > Our Miners Database gives a John Devlin living at 68, > Back Row, New Houses, Whitehaven in 1851. He was, however, listed as > 39 years old, born in Ireland. > > Dave > (Florence Mine Heritage Centre, Egremont) > > >

Hi All I'm going to be making some slight changes to the Guidelines that came with your welcome letter; and will be posting them soon to the list. Some of you have written to me about whether forwarding posts from other lists is OK. The answer being - yes, so long as the author knows and is happy about it. Some of you probably don't know that by participating on a Rootsweb list you've agreed (according to Rootsweb! :-)) to abide by their Acceptable Use Policy [AUP]. Since you've agreed to it, you ought to read it: http://www.rootsweb.com/rootsweb/aup.html If there is anything else that you want added to or subtracted from the Guidelines, please email me. Not on list, please. Chris chris@dickinson.uk.net ENG-CUL-CARLISLE-admin@rootsweb.com ENG-CUL-COPELAND-admin@rootsweb.com

Dear Dave, We certainly enjoyed our visit to the Florence Mine and just managed to get on the last tour at the end of the 2001 season having rushed all the way from Maryport through all the road works to get there in time. I wonder if you were there on that occasion. Clement Mossops, three in three generations must definitely belong to our line somewhere. Could you hazard a guess as to how old "Old Clem" is and where is the Haulage business based? Funnily enough, some people are just not interested in their ancestry but I hope these are, especially to keep the name running down to the grandson. I would like a copy of the digital photo for my files. If you have any more information or find out more I would be very interested indeed to have it. Best wishes, Jill Coulthard

Thank you for this transcription of the MI of Henry Ritson and family. The John Moore Ritson who died at Hinning House, Bootle on 6 June 1909 must be the John Henry Moore Ritson referred to in family papers. I had no information on him previously. I was a little confused by the wording of the MI which seems to say that Henry was only son born c. 1846 died 1849 and later that John Moore was their only son born 1847 before Henry had died. It seems likely that John Moore Ritson added the Henry to his name in respect of his deceased brother, perhaps unofficially. John Ritson's wife was Sarah Grice of the Grice family of Australian Import/Export Merchants. Sarah was the granddaughter of the founder William Grice and daughter of one of the partners, Thomas Grice. Her unmarried uncle James Septimus Grice, also a major partner, died in August 1889 at Millholme, the family seat in Bootle. Sarah was baptised on 5 Oct 1850 at Bootle. Her uncle J. S. Grice left her £10,000 and his silver coffee pot (known as Mr. Knight's silverware) and silver teapot with their respective stands. . In 1888 Sarah is referred to as "poor Sarah" and it sounds as if she is either very delicate or sickly. It was thought that she would take her uncle's impending death hard. I have no record of any children of John and Sarah. Her three surviving brothers each inherited a great deal of property from their uncle plus a substantial amount of money. Amongst that left to the youngest, Richard Grice, was Hinning House, Bootle still lived in by his descendants. It appears therefore that John H. M. Ritson was living with his brother-in-law when he died. I have on family charts that Richard Grice was married to Mary Muriel and I had assumed these to be her first names. However, in light of the MI it appears that Muriel might be her maiden name as John Ritson's sister was married to G. J. Muriel of Whitehaven. >From the 1901 census (index only) Richard Grice is living in Bootle as a Retired Wool Merchant. Looking for John and Sarah Ritson I found nothing under that spelling but JOHN KIRSTON 54 born Whitehaven, living at Bootle, Farmer SARAH KIRSTON 50 born Bootle, living at Bootle Without a pay to view session I am unable to tell if this is the right couple so will have to save this until I have enough entries to query for the minimum amount. Incidentally I found this spelling by asking for a "Sarah" born Bootle 2 years either side of her baptism date then examined the result for any likely mistranscription. This has certainly given me much food for thought and leads to follow. Jill Coulthard

----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Banks" <DavidKenneth@banks81.freeserve.co.uk> To: "sarah" <sreveley@grandecom.net> Cc: <CUMBERLAND-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, October 05, 2002 11:19 PM Subject: The Ratty > Hi Sarah, > For anybody that's interested, the Ravenglass & Eskdale > Railway or "The Ratty", is a narrow gauge steam railway, originally > built to transport iron-ore from mines driven into veins in the valley > sides at Nab Gill (Gatesgarth Station) and across the valley beneath > Goat Crag. Other mines were Christcliffe, Barn Garth, Blea Tarn, and > Willan Beck. Just to the east of Gate Crag they also mined copper. The > mines fell into disuse in the early 1900's, and the railway became > neglected, until enthusiasts began to rebuild and re-equip it. > If you think I'm a mine obsessive, you should talk to some of them > about railways! > I suppose exploring abandoned mines can be a "retun to the womb", but > big train sets ......... ? > > Dave > (Florence Mine Heritage Centre, Egremont) > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "sarah" <sreveley@grandecom.net> > To: <CUMBERLAND-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Saturday, October 05, 2002 6:32 PM > Subject: Re: [CUL] One Place Study > > > > . > > >>The depth of knowledge and research is often breath taking, and > certainly contributes a lot more than the mere recitation of other > people's views about a particular historic period.<< Roy > > > > Well said. Knowing only that the Beatles were from Liverpool, and > that I was in love with David Niven, I had a lot to learn. It is more > important to me to learn about the home towns of my ancestors to put > meat on their bones than to know how many kids there were. Cumberland > and Northumberland are rich in history and landscapes. > > > > Just last night I found a wonderful photo of the Ravenglass-Eskdale > Railway while googling for Amanda's Golden Lion public house. Go look: > > http://www.teacherstravelweb.com/Lakedistrict.html > > > > Sarah > > > > ______________________________ >

----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Banks" <DavidKenneth@banks81.freeserve.co.uk> To: "diana smith" <diana.smith@ntlworld.com> Cc: <ENG-CUL-ENGLAND-L@rootsweb.com>; <CUMBERLAND-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, October 05, 2002 11:06 PM Subject: Re: [CUL] Ron Taylor's 1851 census database > Hi Diana, > Our Miners Database gives a John Devlin living at 68, > Back Row, New Houses, Whitehaven in 1851. He was, however, listed as > 39 years old, born in Ireland. > > Dave > (Florence Mine Heritage Centre, Egremont) > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "diana smith" <diana.smith@ntlworld.com> > To: <CUMBERLAND-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Saturday, October 05, 2002 5:27 PM > Subject: [CUL] Ron Taylor's 1851 census database > > > > Hello all > > > > I'm trying to track down the online 1851 census database for the UK > > produced by Ron Taylor. He has a section for Scots and Irish > strays. [I'm > > looking for John DEVLIN born Ireland, aged about 30, almost > certainly in > > Cumberland at this time] > > > > I have put it through GOOGLE and every search results in a broken > link. > > Does anyone have the right web address for this site or is it no > longer > > available? > > > > Also, on Roland Griggs site, when I click the "search 1851" section > I get > > re-routed to the BBC search engine. Has anyone else had this > problem? > > > > Thank you > > > > Diana > > > > ______________________________ >

----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Banks" <DavidKenneth@banks81.freeserve.co.uk> To: "Melville Cowin" <mel_cowin@btopenworld.com> Cc: <CUMBERLAND-L@rootsweb.com>; <ENG-CUL-COPELAND@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, October 05, 2002 10:36 PM Subject: Re: [CUL-COP] John GARNER, Anabaptist - Cleator > Mel (and List), > Gutterby is approximately 300 yards north of > Woodend. It is on what was known as Gutterby Lane, which goes to Moor > Row. Approximately another 300 yards beyond the fence and stile where > Gutterby Cottages stood, the road does an S-bend. This is where the > railway crossed; the embankment is still there. On this embankment > (east side) is the gravestone or commemorative stone of this same man, > which is depicted on the cover of the CFHS 1851 Census booklet for > Egremont and Cleator. The burial ground is the triangular field > immediately to the south of this. The 1861 OS map shows this ground as > a Quaker burial site, but I understand they did not have grave > markers. > The stone says > "Hear Doath the Body of John Garner lay, who was faithfull to the Lord > in his day, who did this burying place freely Bestow, and Despensed > the gospl without Charge you know, unto the people over which he was > Ordained, A paster unto them he did still Remain. Buryed ye 2 day of > December 1706 aged 75 years". > Also, although the Gutterby Cottages are now gone, there remains a > well there covered with a slate, but which is now bone dry. > Hope this is useful to somebody, > > Dave > (Florence Mine Heritage Centre, Egremont) > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Melville Cowin" <mel_cowin@btopenworld.com> > To: <ENG-CUL-COPELAND-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Friday, October 04, 2002 5:12 PM > Subject: Re: [CUL-COP] John GARNER, Anabaptist - Cleator > > > > Chris asked if anyone would care to comment on the places mentioned > in > > the following:- > > > >From Caesar Caine: 'A History of the Rural Dean of Whitehaven' > > > [1916] > > > > > > John GARNER, the Anabaptist pastor in Cleator, was buried in the > > > dissenters' graveyard, at Cleator, December 2nd 1706, aged 75 > > > years. His tombstone is affixed to the railway bridge which > > > crosses the main road from Gutterby to Moor Row. The old burial > > > ground is now largely covered by the railway embankment, though > > > an adjoining field goes by the name of 'Sepulchre Meadow'. John > > > Garner, the Anabaptist preacher, owned 'The Hollins' which was > > > part of Row Foot estate, Cleator. > > > > > > > Gutterby, if my memory serves me right, was near Woodend, roughly > half > > way between Moor Row and Egremont. There is a Hollins Farm just > south > > of Moor Row and may be 'The Hollins' referred to. > > Row Foot is about a mile out of Egremont and accessed from the minor > > road from Egremont to Ennerdale. > > > > I have no idea where the dissenters' burial ground was and am unable > to > > identify the railway bridge Caesar Caine is referring to. There are > two > > possibilities so methinks a little field work is in order. > > > > Mel > > > > ______________________________ > >

Hi Jill (and List), Interesting this Clement Mossop thread, as currently "Old Clem" Mossop owns Mossop's Haulage business, his son "Young Clem" Mossop, runs it, and his grandson, also a young Clem, works for it, and is an accomplished Moto-cross rider. Anybody wants it, I have a digital photo of the latter with his bike. His fiance worked at our Heritage Centre for around 8 months this year, and wanted it as a screen-saver (there's love for you!). I wonder if he's interested in his ancestry? Dave (Florence Mine Heritage Centre, Egremont) ----- Original Message ----- From: "John & Jill Coulthard" <jjcoulthard@btinternet.com> To: <ENG-CUL-COPELAND-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, October 04, 2002 11:31 PM Subject: [CUL-COP] Sun Inn, Arlecdon > Dear Tony, > > Following a further dig through my files I have established which CLEMENT > MOSSOP married Elizabeth Lowden and was presumably the one listed as the > Landlord of the Sun Inn in 1897. > > He was a very distant cousin of your Clement Mossop who married Martha > Sumpton and a grandson of the Clement Mossop who married Mary Watson. > > Interestingly though at their marriage on 26 January 1895 at Arlecdon it was > ELIZABETH whose profession was given as a Publican at Arlecdon whilst > Clement was a farmer of Frizington, Arlecdon. Elizabeth was about ten > years older than Clement and their ages were given as 40 and 49. The > witnesses were Alfred Robinson and Mary Robinson and Clement's father was > given as John, farmer. Elizabeth had previously been married to Charles > Lowden, an Iron Miner living at Winder, Arlecdon in an iron mining > community. > > Clement died on 31st October 1903 at Skelscough, Arlecdon aged 45 years and > was buried on 3rd November. He is recorded on an MI in Arlecdon Churchyard > with his parents, a brother and a sister. His mother was presumably living > at Skelscough where she died a couple of years later. > > Strangely enough I haven't been able to find Clement on the 1881 census nor > 1901 census anywhere in the country. In 1881 his parents were living in > Whitehaven with some of their children and two brothers were in Liverpool. > > It is confusing as the Clement Mossop who married Martha Sumpton also lived > earlier at Skelscough where he died in December 1881. > > Elizabeth's maiden name was THOMPSON, daughter of John. I know nothing > else about this family or why she should be the Publican in 1897. Mary > Elliott nee Sumpton was a Publican in Arlecdon on the 1881 census. > > It definitely does not seem though that the transfer of the license was > through family reasons unless the Thompsons can be connected in to the > Sumpton line. > > The third Clement Mossop I suggested was married to Jane and farming in > Warwickshire in 1901. > > I hope this might give you some leads as to when the Sumpton/Elliott line > finished at the Sun Inn and when the Thompson/Lowden line started there. I > do not have the 1891 census to check who was Publican there on that date. > > Best wishes, > > Jill Coulthard >

Just starting on Farren's who married into My Brocklebanks Tom Farren of Ravenglass Married Margaret Brocklebank, Drigg in 1907 Born Father Joseph Farren from Drigg and Head fisherman. Mother Mary ? Siblings Eleanor Sarah John William Isaac All born in Ravenglass between 1871 and 1881 1881 Census Address Main Street Muncaster Information an any of these would be welcome but mostly on Tom and Margaret and their children ( have not got their names as yet ) Tom was a butcher but my mother thought he worked on the Railways which he may have done later in life. He Carved for the Pentland? Arms in Ravenglass ( Now Closed and looking very sad, very big building) Thank you Patricia Clews Brocklebank/Brockbank Murphy: Cul Ward, Stather, Peacock: Yrks

J.H.Cowman aged 48, Capt. of the Pandora, was drowned, his body washed on shore on Island Magee, Ireland. Interred there December 24th 1855. Mary wife of John Harris Cowman died February 23rd 1849 aged 36. Ann, their daughter died August 1st 1841 aged 4yrs and 8mths. Jane the wife of John Harris Cowman died January 9th 1854. Lydia, the beloved wife of John Harris Cowman, died July 3rd 1855 aged 30. I wonder if he drowned himself to relieve the sorrow he had obviously suffered? Or does anyone know if the Pandora sank c.December 1855? Regards, Bryan

Henry Ritson only son of the late Mr John Ritson of Tallentire died 22nd December 1849 aged 3. Also of Catherine his wife died December 14th 1850 aged 37. Also Marian their only daughter, beloved wife of G.J.Muriel, J.P. Surgeon of Whitehaven. Born August 21st 1845 died December 23rd 1920. Also John Henry Moore their only son born August 21st 1847 died at Hinning House, Bootle June 6th 1909. Jonathan Dixon died January 11th 1860 aged 75. Henry son of Jonathan and Elizabeth Dixon died June 5th 1847 aged 31. Also Jonathan and John their sons, died in infancy. Also of Elizabeth the daughter of Henry and Isabella Dixon and granddaughter of Jonathan and Elizabeth, died December 31st 1845 aged 15 mths. Alexander youngest son of Alexander and Ann McDonald, died June 3rd 1758 aged 2 yrs and 7 mths. Also Elizabeth Their daughter died December 14th 1767 aged 16. Thomas Williamson, Mariner, died at Kingston in Jamaica October 17th 1755 aged 30. Frances, daughter of above, died June 12th 1774 aged 18. Frances, wife, died January 8th 1814 aged 87. Regards, Bryan

Dear Tony, Following a further dig through my files I have established which CLEMENT MOSSOP married Elizabeth Lowden and was presumably the one listed as the Landlord of the Sun Inn in 1897. He was a very distant cousin of your Clement Mossop who married Martha Sumpton and a grandson of the Clement Mossop who married Mary Watson. Interestingly though at their marriage on 26 January 1895 at Arlecdon it was ELIZABETH whose profession was given as a Publican at Arlecdon whilst Clement was a farmer of Frizington, Arlecdon. Elizabeth was about ten years older than Clement and their ages were given as 40 and 49. The witnesses were Alfred Robinson and Mary Robinson and Clement's father was given as John, farmer. Elizabeth had previously been married to Charles Lowden, an Iron Miner living at Winder, Arlecdon in an iron mining community. Clement died on 31st October 1903 at Skelscough, Arlecdon aged 45 years and was buried on 3rd November. He is recorded on an MI in Arlecdon Churchyard with his parents, a brother and a sister. His mother was presumably living at Skelscough where she died a couple of years later. Strangely enough I haven't been able to find Clement on the 1881 census nor 1901 census anywhere in the country. In 1881 his parents were living in Whitehaven with some of their children and two brothers were in Liverpool. It is confusing as the Clement Mossop who married Martha Sumpton also lived earlier at Skelscough where he died in December 1881. Elizabeth's maiden name was THOMPSON, daughter of John. I know nothing else about this family or why she should be the Publican in 1897. Mary Elliott nee Sumpton was a Publican in Arlecdon on the 1881 census. It definitely does not seem though that the transfer of the license was through family reasons unless the Thompsons can be connected in to the Sumpton line. The third Clement Mossop I suggested was married to Jane and farming in Warwickshire in 1901. I hope this might give you some leads as to when the Sumpton/Elliott line finished at the Sun Inn and when the Thompson/Lowden line started there. I do not have the 1891 census to check who was Publican there on that date. Best wishes, Jill Coulthard

DIXON Crosthwaite Marriage 1st December 1782 William Dixon Mary Thompson Banns in the presence of Timothy Fisher and John Wilson Thomas Edmundson, Minister Cockermouth Baptism 1816 October 4th Elizabeth daughter of Joseph Dixon and Elizabeth his wife, labourer. 1820 Burial January 15th Elizabeth Dixon age 3 Baptism 1822 may 5th Joseph son of Joseph Dixon and Elizabeth his wife, Labourer. 1822 June 30th Martha daughter of Joseph Hodgson, Weaver and Jane Dixon, servant Patricia

Mel Cowin writes: <snip> >I have no idea where the dissenters' burial ground was and am >unable to identify the railway bridge Caesar Caine is referring >to. There are two possibilities so methinks a little field work >is in order. Thanks, Mel. I look forward to the results of your legwork. Chris chris@dickinson.uk.net

Wilson's I have no connection to this name so I can not help further. DRIGG Drigg Baptism 1869 April 17th Joseph Dickinson son of Stewart Wilson and his wife Elizabeth, Drigg, Engineer 1872 June 16th John Howard son of Stewart Wilson and Elizabeth his wife, Drigg, Engineer 1880 July 4th Mary Hilda daughter of Stewart Wilson and Elizabeth his wife of The Hill, Drigg, Engineer Cockermouth Baptism 1816 Nov 10th Elizabeth daughter of Joseph Wilson and his wife Mary 1851 Burial Ann Wilson, march 15 th age 55 years 1851 Baptism march 5 th William son of Dinah Wilson single woman Cockermouth union 1854 Baptism September 14th John son of Mary Wilson, single woman, Cockermouth Union Hope these are of help to someone Patricia

While reading through my files and records some names kept popping up. I have no connection with these names so can not help any further These are all JACKSON Drigg Baptism 1869 30th January Daniel son of Henry Jackson and his wife Sarah, Drigg, Husbandman H.H. Burrow, Curate 1886 31st march. Private Baptism Isaac Fletcher son of Robert Jackson and his wife Elizabeth, Drigg, Labourer, C.W.Bean, Vicar NB: Received with in the church Sunday May 2nd 1886 1871 June 27th John son of Henry Jackson and his wife Sarah, Drigg, Husbandman H.H.burrow Vicar 1880 7th March Mary daughter of clement Jackson and his wife Bridget, Holm Rook, Blacksmith. 1880 7th November Amy Marian daughter of James Jackson and his wife Elizabeth, Drigg, Station master 1888 August 5th Joseph son of Richard Jackson and his wife Elizabeth, Drigg, Labourer Cockermouth Baptism 1850 November 6th Robert son of Eleanor Jackson, Single Woman, Cockermouth 1851 Burial Cockermouth John Jackson, March 19th, age 21years 1865 Burial Cockermouth John Jackson, March 4th, age 70 years Hope these are of use to someone Patricia

Chris asked if anyone would care to comment on the places mentioned in the following:- > >From Caesar Caine: 'A History of the Rural Dean of Whitehaven' > [1916] > > John GARNER, the Anabaptist pastor in Cleator, was buried in the > dissenters' graveyard, at Cleator, December 2nd 1706, aged 75 > years. His tombstone is affixed to the railway bridge which > crosses the main road from Gutterby to Moor Row. The old burial > ground is now largely covered by the railway embankment, though > an adjoining field goes by the name of 'Sepulchre Meadow'. John > Garner, the Anabaptist preacher, owned 'The Hollins' which was > part of Row Foot estate, Cleator. > Gutterby, if my memory serves me right, was near Woodend, roughly half way between Moor Row and Egremont. There is a Hollins Farm just south of Moor Row and may be 'The Hollins' referred to. Row Foot is about a mile out of Egremont and accessed from the minor road from Egremont to Ennerdale. I have no idea where the dissenters' burial ground was and am unable to identify the railway bridge Caesar Caine is referring to. There are two possibilities so methinks a little field work is in order. Mel