I wrote about Ponsonby/Patrickson of Haile/St Bees/Ennerdale or of Millom: >It may, of course, be one of those coincidences. Beginning to look like a coincidence. I've just noticed that a Francis Patrickson of Gt Langthwaite in Millom had a will proved in 1741. On t'other hand, there aren't any earlier Patrickson wills for the area. A William Patrickson of Moor in Millom had a will proved in 1767. There was also a will for a William Patrickson of Todholes in St Bees in 1729. Source: 'Copeland Wills 1541-1857' by Neville Ramsden ISBN 1 871420 09 1 Chris chris@dickinson.uk.net

Ivan Gregory writes: <snip> >this establishes a relationship between the Patrickson and >Ponsonby families although the places are not the same >as on the children's bond. I have William Patrickson of >Great Longthwaite [hard to read but I think this is correct] >parish of Millom and John Ponsonby younger? of >Kirksanton, same parish and county, yeoman. <snip> It may, of course, be one of those coincidences. On the other hand, it may be that John Ponsonby and William Patrickson were acting as tenants, farming properties owned by the Ponsoby family of Haile. There's no reason why such a major family shouldn't have property (through inheritance or purchase) over a large area. It's usually fairly easy to check the likelihood of this - if there is a coherent succession of Ponsonby and/or Patrickson generations in the Millom registers, then they are established local families. If not, then John and William are quite probably from elsewhere. Chris chris@dickinson.uk.net

From: GENUKI FAMILY HISTORY NEWS No 121 6 January 2003 NEW BOOKS AND CD's " Richard Byers has just published Workington Family History Directory, The essential guide to tracing your Workington Ancestors. ISBN 0 9529812 8 9, priced at 15 UKP " Chris chris@dickinson.uk.net

When ordering from the GRO it is 3 pounds less if you supply the "GRO index reference". I'm looking at the FreeBMD page - is "Vol Page" the same as "GRO index reference" ? David

Aha, the Patrickson family tree in : Ralph Littledale: 'Some notes on the Patricksons of Ennerdale', CWAAS 1925, pp 128-243 has: Scalegill Anthony Patrickson = Elizabeth Benn with children: Anthony Isabella = John Ponsonby Frances = Isaac Langton Elizabeth Bridget = John Benn = Margaret Benn Mary = William Braithwaite William Thomas = Martha Wilson Chris chris@dickinson.uk.net

Ivan Gregory wrote: <snip> >I have obtained a children's bond dated 1747 which appoints his >widow as administrator and the other signatories to the bond are >John PONSONBY and William PATRICKSON. <snip> From Caesar Caine's book on Copeland parishes: 'Ennerdale Marriages (sheets in disorder)' 1769, June 2d, William Patrickson, of Skailgill, and Elizabeth Benn, of Todholes, both in the parish of St. Bees, marryed 1711, May 20th, John Ponsonby, Esq., of Haugh, Haile in the parish of Haile, and Isabel Patrickson, of Skailgill, Gentlewoman, in the parish of St Bees, marryed 1764, July 8th, William Patrickson, of Foulyeat, in St Bees, husbandman, and Mary Towerson, of Swinside, in Ennerdale, in the presence of John Towerson and Joseph Fletcher [I'm descended from the Towersons of Swinside, don't ya know] Chris chris@dickinson.uk.net

The following are the names I'm trying to research at present all in the Cleator, Whitehaven, Workington areas as far as I know: COOPER TEMBEY ROBERTSON TYRELL BINGHAM Jennifer from Leeds.

"One of the sponsors at William's baptism in 1712 was a Mr. Ponsonby of Hale." (I refer to the Dr. William Brownrigg (1712-1800), who was born at High Close Hall, Plumbland and died at Ormathwaite). Gyles Brownrigg, a relative of Dr. William Brownrigg, supposedly married a Miss Barrett/Barnett of the younger branch of Lord Bessborough's family. She may have been connected to the Ponsonbys. Gyles died 1702 in Ireland. (This is one of my 'brick walls'). Ann Brownrigg

Within the last month, I learned that a George Henry Patrickson (born in Penrith, Cumberland late in 1875) married into my line when he married Amy GOULDING (my first cousin, twice removed). From the 1881 census, he appears to be the fourth of five children of Thomas Patrickson (born about 1840) and his wife Elizabeth (about 1842). The other children are Mary Elizabeth, William John, Frances Annie and Joseph James, all born in Penrith. While there is nothing to link him to the William Patrickson in your note, the name is somewhat uncommon. Roger ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ivan Gregory" <ivan.gregory@bigpond.com> To: <ENG-CUL-COPELAND-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, January 04, 2003 6:03 PM Subject: [CUL-COP] ASKEW, PONSONBY, PATRICKSON > I am researching a family named Askew in Dublin and Cumberland and seem to > have hit a > brickwall. A kind subscriber to the Dublin list has sent me an entry she > found in > an index from the keeper of public resources in Ireland which states that > Robert ASKEW > died in Dublin in 1746, occupation founder and intestate. Robert's wife Mary > and three children, Elizabeth, Thomas and Robert, moved to Dunningwell, > parish of Millom in Cumberland. > I have obtained a children's bond dated 1747 which appoints his widow as > administrator > and the other signatories to the bond are John PONSONBY and William > PATRICKSON. The bond was organised by Matthew Postlethwaite, vicar of > Millom. > I am not sure what founder means, probably that he worked in a foundry, > could be either metal or a glass foundry. Given the status of the persons > signing the children's bond and that the son, Robert, was designated as a > gentleman on his marriage certificate from Thwaites in 1769, [he was also > educated as he became writing master at the Royal Grammar School, Newcastle > upon Tyne], I suspect he was probably a manager of the foundry. > Does anyone know anything about the Ponsonby or Patrickson families and > whether they owned businesses in Dublin at this time? > There are several relevant entries on the IGI but they are entries submitted > by members of the LDS and therefore cannot be further investigated. These > are for a marriage of Robert Askew to Mary Rogers in Dublin in 1734, Mary > Rogers birth in 1713 and the birth of Robert Askew in Dublin in 1700. > Presumably there must have been some source for these submissions but I > cannot locate them. Anyone got any suggestions? > Ivan > > ______________________________

"THOMAS BANKS 1718. Abstract: Not a will but rather the undertakings by his widow Elizabeth, of Biggar, Walney. It is signed by her and Thos. Richardson, witnessed by Rich. Wilson and ?Gos. Cage. No other names are mentioned. Inventory shows assets totalling £498.16.00, of which £450 represents a ship and rigging (unnamed but perhaps traceable through the Barrow Archives??). The assets are more than offset by liabilities of £858, of which £8 seem to be for funeral expenses and the remainder for 'several debts on bills, bonds and mortgages." Courtesy HB. Jane Hareling married in 1657: 1)George Brownrigg of Cockermouth Park who was born in Crosthwaite (1625-1664) and 2) Robert Bankes of Workington, yeoman ca. 1665. Isabell Brownrigg of Crosthwaite (died 1670) married in 1669 a Thomas Bancks of North End, Walney, P. of Dalton. George Brownrigg was Isabell's uncle. If anyone can add information to the Brownrigg/Bankes connections, it would be much appreciated. Ann Brownrigg

I am researching a family named Askew in Dublin and Cumberland and seem to have hit a brickwall. A kind subscriber to the Dublin list has sent me an entry she found in an index from the keeper of public resources in Ireland which states that Robert ASKEW died in Dublin in 1746, occupation founder and intestate. Robert's wife Mary and three children, Elizabeth, Thomas and Robert, moved to Dunningwell, parish of Millom in Cumberland. I have obtained a children's bond dated 1747 which appoints his widow as administrator and the other signatories to the bond are John PONSONBY and William PATRICKSON. The bond was organised by Matthew Postlethwaite, vicar of Millom. I am not sure what founder means, probably that he worked in a foundry, could be either metal or a glass foundry. Given the status of the persons signing the children's bond and that the son, Robert, was designated as a gentleman on his marriage certificate from Thwaites in 1769, [he was also educated as he became writing master at the Royal Grammar School, Newcastle upon Tyne], I suspect he was probably a manager of the foundry. Does anyone know anything about the Ponsonby or Patrickson families and whether they owned businesses in Dublin at this time? There are several relevant entries on the IGI but they are entries submitted by members of the LDS and therefore cannot be further investigated. These are for a marriage of Robert Askew to Mary Rogers in Dublin in 1734, Mary Rogers birth in 1713 and the birth of Robert Askew in Dublin in 1700. Presumably there must have been some source for these submissions but I cannot locate them. Anyone got any suggestions? Ivan

Does anyone have access to a list of Copeland marriage bonds please? I'm looking for Casson marriages 1700 - 1770. I have the Carlisle book, but there are none in there! Ann Lavery

Ivan Gregory writes: <snip> >Robert ASKEW died in Dublin in 1746, occupation founder and >intestate. Robert's wife Mary and three children, Elizabeth, >Thomas and Robert, moved to Dunningwell, parish of Millom in >Cumberland. I have obtained a children's bond dated 1747 which >appoints his widow as administrator and the other signatories to >the bond are John PONSONBY and William PATRICKSON. <snip> >I suspect he was probably a manager of the foundry. Or owner. This is just before the Industrial Revolution sets in - foundries would have been smaller and easier to establish. >Does anyone know anything about the Ponsonby or Patrickson >families and whether they owned businesses in Dublin at this >time? Both surnames are distinguished, though these may not be relatives! According to Cumberland Families and Heraldry, Sir John Ponsonby, 1608-78, Lord of the Manor of Haile, acquired estates in Ireland. He had a son John, who had a son John who had a son John, all of whom were High Sheriffs of Cumberland. According to CFH, there was also a John Ponsonby (died 1783, aged 45), a Whitehaven attorney, who later on married into the Gale family (formerly Irish, but then Whitehaven's top tobacco merchants). So lots of Ponsonby connections with Ireland. The famous Patrickson family had controlled Ennerdale, but by this period had largely fallen on hard times. There were many Lamplugh/Ennerdale families with connections in Ireland ... I seem to remember some Patrickson Irish connection, but can't think what offhand. >There are several relevant entries on the IGI but they are >entries submitted by members of the LDS and therefore >cannot be further investigated. These are for a marriage >of Robert Askew to Mary Rogers in Dublin in 1734, Mary >Rogers birth in 1713 and the birth of Robert Askew in >Dublin in 1700. Presumably there must have been some >source for these submissions but I cannot locate them. >Anyone got any suggestions? The SOG in London has bound volumes of all Dublin church transcripts for this period - I would look Askew up for you, but can't see myself being there for at least a month. If you haven't had any success before then, remind me in about a month's time. Chris chris@dickinson.uk.net

Hello everyone, My husband's maternal 2x great grandparents were William Robertson and Rachel Tyrell perhaps from the Whitehaven area. I cannot find a marriage certificate for them. Can anyone help with this or any other leads to information about them, please? All I know about them is they had a daughter, Sarah Jane Robertson in 1859, born in Pipehouse Lane, New Town, Whitehaven. She married William Cooper in 1878 in the Primitive Methodist Chapel in Whitehaven. The marriage certificate states her father was deceased. Any help most appreciated. Jennifer from snowy Leeds.

Oops, everyone. The virus hoax seems to have spread inadvertently onto this list! The virus warning that was sent, to my knowledge, to CUL, ULV and STS (and maybe to other lists too) is an old hoax. Please bear in mind that any virus discussion is off-topic. Chris chris@dickinson.uk.net ENG-CUL-CARLISLE-admin@rootsweb.com ENG-CUL-COPELAND-admin@rootsweb.com

Hello list, I hope everyone had a good xmas and are enjoying a good new year. I am on the hunt again for a kind soul who can do some looking up in the parish records of Whitehaven. This would be in St Nicholas parish firstly but maybe in St Bees and surrounding parishes. Chris Dickinson was kind enough before xmas to come up with some info for me that he suggested might be worth searching for. My original email was for a ROBERT PERIE born 23.10.1766. Chris may have found for me his sister, Betty Tirie (more than likely Perie) born 1759, 9th of Sept. Both mothers were Mary but no fathers. Also Roberts grandmother and grandfather, they being... Mungo and Jane Perry . Mungo was found in the 1762 census living in a boarding house in Queen street. Chris seemed to think but wasnt sure if only heads of households were recorded back then hence no Mary or Jane. Does anyone know for sure if this was the case. The info I am searching for is for Mary Perie, Perry etc, daughter of Mungo and Jane Perry. If other children pop up that will be a bonus. This will be in Baptisms 1694/1837 in the areas mentioned above. Just a bit extra info. Mungos wife was Jane and she died in 1781. Mungo was a mariner. All help greatly appreciated. Thank you Carol/NZ

Hi Everybody, I deleted the file the last time this subject was raised. Nothing disastrous happened, I downloaded the file from Microsoft. But as Rob has already said, I cannot remember how to do it, Sorry! Bryan

Hi Everyone, Just a note of thanks to all those kind people who replied to my query regarding the birth certificate. Regards, Bryan

In England at present it is perfectly legal for a person to obtain any birth certificate for any person living or dead. A birth certificate is simply proof that such a person as the details describe was born on the date shown and does not constitute proof of identification. There does however appear to be a paranoid fringe developing that takes the view that the release of such public records are an intrusion of privacy. Cheers Guy TheCoopster53MR@aol.com wrote: > Hi Everybody, > > Am I allowed to obtain a copy of a birth certificate of a living person > without their knowledge or is this totally taboo? I fear the latter but would > like your comments on the matter. > > Bryan > > ============================== > To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 -- Wakefield England http://www.archivecdbooks.org Where you find the answer http://gye.future.easyspace.com Worldwide Cemetery Links, Monumental Inscriptions, War Graves, etc. http://freespace.virgin.net/guy.etchells Transcripts, Parish Records, Calendar, Abbreviations, Returns of Owners of Lands etc. etc.

Off the top of my head (still full of Xmas stuff)......it is absolutely taboo in Canada!! But I will check this out to be 100% sure. And Guy....I am not one of the 'paranoid fringe' (G). I was a paralegal. Turn this around.......would you want me to be able to get your birth certificate, then using that, get your Social Insurance Number, a driver's licence, etc.......then open credit card accounts (remember, I have your mother's maiden name with this).......and bleed you dry!! Just a little 'enlightenment' on how identity theft works. And I am darn glad we have these laws. True case........as I was a Commissioner of Oaths (slightly less than a Notary Public). Remember when James Earl Ray was on the run after killing Martin Luther King? He came to Toronto......went thru old newspaper microfilm birth announcements.....picked out 3 people roughly his own age......and then armed with the mother's maiden name, etc., he applied for passports and a Notary 'rubberstamped' them. I personally knew 2 of the 3 people he stole the identity of.......how's that for a small world in a city of 2 million people??? And one was a cop, who found life a little tense at the station after that!! Heather > Hi Everybody, > > Am I allowed to obtain a copy of a birth certificate of a living person > without their knowledge or is this totally taboo? I fear the latter but would > like your comments on the matter. > > Bryan > > > ==== CUMBERLAND Mailing List ==== > >