To the list, It has been suggested to me that this description of the customs etc of the manor of Ennerdale could be of interest to a wider audience. It apears to be taken from an enquiry into the rights of the Lord and those of the tenants. It would appear that he had been trying it on and all the "old worthies" were called upon to give their evidence. William Mossop [Moscrop] has left us a record of what these tithes were in the 18th century. "A just and true account of all small Tithes and moduses Collected within the Townships of Ennerdale and Kinniside for time Immemorial and Collected and received by me William Mossop for my father and self who farmed the Tithes of the Langton family and John Christian Curwen, Esq., and Mr John Cuthbertson the present owner thereof from the year 1758 to 1798 (with only three years interval) viz. Lambs, Wool, Geese, and Pigs paid in kind, for 4 calves and under two pence each and calves Two shillings and sixpence six calves four shillings fourpence and two pence each calf to fourteen inclusive if a calf die one penny for the milk an old cow one halfpenny. For Foal two pence for Bees Twopence each cast for every House.f keeper one hen or sixpence if demanded on Saint Thomas day. Plough one penny, Garth one half-penny, oblations one penny and one half-penny, for every person of Sixteen years or upwards and a certain perscription or modus for every Tenement within the said Townships in lieu of all Predial Tithes. As witness my hand this 21st Day of January, 1804 William Mossop. " Regards to all, Nev.Ramsden

Ivan Gregory wrote: >What in present day English does it all mean? Why is money paid >"unto the Lord Bishop"? Is the sum mentioned the total of the >intestate estate? How is the estate to be disbursed - is it up >to the administrator? This was in reference to a probate [administration] bond that was posted on the CUL list. I'll explain briefly my understanding of how to read such a bond, but Neville is the expert - and maybe he could say if I've got it wrong or could add any details. The ecclesiastical probate court had to ensure that the estate was administered in a proper way. This was done by appointing administrators and guarantors, defining what they had to do, and threatening them with a penalty if they didn't do it. I'll use the probate of Edward WILSON of Frizington (1677) to illustrate. There are two bonds attached to this probate. Each is printed in a standard format but with specifics added by hand. The first handwritten insert on the top line names the people who are guaranteeing that the bond's instructions are carried out [guarantors or bondsmen]. The names in early bonds were usually written in Latin. " Margarita Wilson de Frizington & Thomam Wood de Kidburngill in parochia de Arlecdon & Johannes Nicholson in parochia de Cleator " [i.e. Margaret Wilson of Frizington & Thomas Wood of Kidburngill in the parish of Arlecdon & John Nicholson in the parish of Cleator] Quite often their social status will be stated here (typically, yeo omnes de Arlecdon = 'all yeomen of Arlecdon'] Then, printed bla bla. Then an insert of money (sometimes in Latin, sometimes in numerals): "ducentis libris" [i.e. £200] [the separate inventory had valued the estate (not including land) at about £80]. This was how much the guarantors had to pay as a penalty to the bishop IF the bond wasn't carried out. This was normally fixed at about double the value of the non-real estate. This money wasn't paid up front - it was only paid as a penalty IF things went wrong. then an insert of the date: "primo die Mensis Octobris Anno Dom. 1677" [i.e. first day of October AD 1677] Then, printed bla bla bla. Then the name of the Administrator [the person who would actually carry out the instructions, one of the already mentioned guarantors - typically the widow, son or daughter of the deceased), usually written in English: "Margaret Wilson" Then, printed bla bla bla. Then, for a standard bond, the name of the deceased, usually written in English: "Edward Wilson her late husband" Then, bla bla bla containing the standard instructions for what the Administrator had to do. In this case, the first bond required Margaret to carry out the terms of the will and to make an inventory of the estate. The second bond made provision for the children who were minors. So, instead of the deceased's name only, you have: Edward & Elizabeth Wilson natural and lawful children of Edward Wilson late of Arlecdon. And at the bottom the signatures or marks of the Administrator(s) and guarantors. Hope that helps Chris chris@dickinson.uk.net

In a message dated 1/17/03 6:30:18 PM Pacific Standard Time, heatherfig@rogers.com writes: > did you mean 'deed poll' Yes I did mean Deed Poll, sorry I had forgotten that. You have probably heard me ask this before....my grandmother was born Jane Neill but when she married her name was given as Jennie Brockbank also listed that way on my mothers birth certificate (born in Egremont) she was raised by her Aunt Jane & her Uncle John Herbert Brockbank. My brother said she was adopted, but she never told me that (and she told me a lot). The name she used in the here in the US was Jennie Neill Shaw. Her parents came to the US in 1904 leaving her with the couple mentioned above. I just wonder if she was adopted formally, or just used that name. She said they called her Jennie so not to confuse the 2 Janes (her & the aunt). Thanks Jan researching: SHAW, BOADLE, DIXON, NEILL, CONKEY, TOPPING, STEELE, GLENDINNING, MOSSOP, COPELAND - cumbria BROCKBANK, HERBERT, PARKER - cumbria SHEDD, SPEARS, STICKNEY, JEWETT, BURCH, BLOOD, HALL - usa

Excellent explanation, Chris. I have the one you found for me and I guess you explained it to me then. But I really think that the Lord Bishop was into *usury* way before the term was popular.....grin. It threw me at first when I saw the huge amounts for the Bishop, and the small worth of the estates. But I am sure the estates were wound up a lot faster than they are nowadays. Cheers......Heather > > This was in reference to a probate [administration] bond that > was posted on the CUL list. > > I'll explain briefly my understanding of how to read such a bond, > but Neville is the expert - and maybe he could say if I've got it > wrong or could add any details. > > The ecclesiastical probate court had to ensure that the estate > was administered in a proper way. This was done by appointing > administrators and guarantors, defining what they had to do, and > threatening them with a penalty if they didn't do it.

Jan......are we talking first name or surname......makes a big difference. I can't help you with the 'bond', but there is nothing unlawful about calling yourself by a different Christian or first name....... I found one lady in Jamaica who was always known as Daniele Ritchie (allegedly descended from Le Comte d'Eretier, hence the french name). Her birth record showed "Drusilla Maude Ritchie"........I would have changed mine too, grin!! Her descendants never knew her proper birth name. And family lore says that d'Eretier was changed to Ritchie, but I have never found any evidence of that either. Btw.....did you mean 'deed poll' to change a name? It is a term common to England and the West Indies (which were mostly populated by England)......but not common in the US or Canada. In fact, I worked in law for 20 years and had never heard the expression. We just do simple Change of Name documents and have the Judge sign them. Cheers.....Heather P.S. My mum was 'Kenny' Bowness all her life, but Kenny was her maiden surname. Her real birth names were Laura Bernice Kenny and she will come out of the 'ether' and clip me one for letting that one out.......she detested her birth names. (G) > My grandmother used a different name in adulthood than was her given name at > birth. > If this was done by bond, are these records accessible and where? > > Jan > researching: > SHAW, BOADLE, DIXON, NEILL, CONKEY, TOPPING, STEELE, GLENDINNING - cumbria > BROCKBANK, HERBERT, PARKER - cumbria > SHEDD, SPEARS, STICKNEY, JEWETT, BURCH, BLOOD, HALL - usa > > > ============================== > To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 > >

Hi List, Jill has suggested that I put the following on this list. I have missed the start of the schoolboy parson but in the Kitchin of Seascale in Gosforth family that you are discussing there was a John Kitchin, who is the brother? of the father Isaac from the St.Bees story. This John had a son Joseph (B:21.5.1795) who also went to school in St.Bees and then to be the Curate of Wasdale head (1821) - but after first serving the church as a curate elsewhere. In Lancashire from memory. Nev.

My grandmother used a different name in adulthood than was her given name at birth. If this was done by bond, are these records accessible and where? Jan researching: SHAW, BOADLE, DIXON, NEILL, CONKEY, TOPPING, STEELE, GLENDINNING - cumbria BROCKBANK, HERBERT, PARKER - cumbria SHEDD, SPEARS, STICKNEY, JEWETT, BURCH, BLOOD, HALL - usa

I refer to the information posted by Steve relating to Bewley. What in present day English does it all mean? Why is money paid "unto the Lord Bishop"? Is the sum mentioned the total of the intestate estate? How is the estate to be disbursed - is it up to the administrator? Sorry about these naive questions but I have a similar document and do not fully understand the process. Could someone please explain Ivan Gregory

Sue The default settings of margins are usually too generous. After down loading the onto your computer, display it on the screen. Select Page Setup from the File menu and reduce the settings, I find that below 10mm creates no problems, and if it does the computer soon tells you. Dennis

Good afternoon (and thanks Chris) from Napier N.Z. I am going sideways in my search for my family and have come across (and down) to a 1881 Census: WILLIAM RANKIN living in Lamplugh and employed as an accountant . Aged 34 and born Scotland. His wife: JANE Rankin Maiden Surname PATERSON also known as JEAN or JEANIE WILSON PATERSON. children: William Rankin aged 8 Jessie (Wilson)Rankin aged 6 Maggie Rankin aged 4 Lily Rankin aged 2 Jane Rankin aged 3mths The dwelling was GILL (?) in Lamplugh Lily and Jane were born in Lamplugh and the older children were born in Scotland as were their parents. 1901 Census sees William and Jane still living in Lamplugh with daughter Lily aged 22 and another son ARCHIBALD aged 13 born Lamplugh. Young Jessie b 1874 in Muirkirk, Ayr. may have married a Frank MOORE and lived in Cockermouth. Would love to hear from anyone with any knowledge of this family Many thanks Ave (Ferguson)

Hi All I've just come across a forgotten ASKEW in my files. The 1783 will of John KIRKBANK of Kirkbank otherwise Fellend in Whicham mentions a daughter Ann married to John ASKEW, surgeon. I assume this is the IGI marriage in 1766 (batch no. A458677). John Kirkbank was married to a daughter of my ancestor, John Dickinson of Streetgate in Lamplugh (died 1755). The will was witnessed by William Dickinson, Daniel Dickinson and John Atkinson. John Kirkbank had property in Kirkby and Castle Sowerby. For some daft reason (saving money, I suppose!), though, I just copied these minimal details rather than photocopying the will. Drat! Chris chris@dickinson.uk.net

Many thanks once again, Mel, for looking this up. It appears that the story in the book of St. Bees School did have a foundation in fact then. Purely from IGI I see there was an Isaac Kitchen baptised at Gosforth 3 Oct 1790, son of Isaac. This would put him at age 17 in 1807 when he was said to be in the upper form of St. Bees and acting as the Headmaster/Vicar of Haile's deputy and 24 when he took up the curacy which seems right. Of course this particular Isaac may have died or followed another path. Presumably Isaac had progressed to another parish when Abraham Brown took over as curate at Haile. Jill > Further inspection of the Haile Parish Records shows that an Isaac Kitchen was the curate at Haile in the years 1814 to 1816 and he was succeeded by Abraham Brown in 1817.> > Mel>

But I am set up for A4 and it still cuts the bottom off + about 2 letters from the right hand side. Regarda, Sue.

David Know wrote: >Chris, > >I recognize that this is generally considered to be off topic. >But I think where we run into different standards it would >be helpful to explain how to compensate. And helpful to >all, so an on list thread. >Your opinion ? I have no problems with this sort of thing being discussed onlist. Anything that helps research on Copeland is relevant. Just don't get into a discussion of websites to do with Staffordshire :-) If it gets too techie or people start complaining to me (offlist!) I'll ask you to draw a line. Chris chris@dickinson.uk.net ENG-CUL-CARLISLE-admin@rootsweb.com ENG-CUL-COPELAND-admin@rootsweb.com

Chris, I recognize that this is generally considered to be off topic. But I think where we run into different standards it would be helpful to explain how to compensate. And helpful to all, so an on list thread. Your opinion ? David Roger, Thank you. Being a novice I would never have caught that. And being a novice I still haven't quite figured out how to change. I'm running into all sorts of problems with the frames. David In a message dated 1/15/03 5:11:59 PM Central Standard Time, zimmerhouse@bellsouth.net writes: > Since it is an English site, I wouldn't be surprised if you learn it is set > for an A4 paper size, slightly longer and narrower than 8.5x11. > > Roger > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tim & Una Anderson" <timuna@starpower.net> > To: <ENG-CUL-COPELAND-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 11:56 PM > Subject: Re: [CUL-COP] Pigot online DIGITAL LIBRARY OF HISTORICAL > DIRECTORIES > > > > David -- > > Thanks for this. It is fun and valuable. The problem that I am > > having is printing pages. It tends to cut off the bottom of the 8 > > 1/2 x 11" paper that I use. Could it be set up for a larger page > > format? Is it possible to shrink or even print the bottom of the > > page on a second page? It has been spitting out a blank second page > > when I print. > > On the genealogical side, I have recorded from the 1829 Pigot > > several Cumberland Jeffersons in the wine and spirits business in > > various towns. Does this suggest a possible family relationship, > > or, perhaps, the tendency to follow along in father's business, > > which after many many generations, could spread quite distant > > cousins in the same business over the countryside? Just a thought. > > Again thanks for DIGITAL LIBRARY OF HISTORICAL DIRECTORIES OF THE > > UNIVERSITY OF LEICESTER. > > Tim > >

Since it is an English site, I wouldn't be surprised if you learn it is set for an A4 paper size, slightly longer and narrower than 8.5x11. Roger ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim & Una Anderson" <timuna@starpower.net> To: <ENG-CUL-COPELAND-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 11:56 PM Subject: Re: [CUL-COP] Pigot online DIGITAL LIBRARY OF HISTORICAL DIRECTORIES > David -- > Thanks for this. It is fun and valuable. The problem that I am > having is printing pages. It tends to cut off the bottom of the 8 > 1/2 x 11" paper that I use. Could it be set up for a larger page > format? Is it possible to shrink or even print the bottom of the > page on a second page? It has been spitting out a blank second page > when I print. > On the genealogical side, I have recorded from the 1829 Pigot > several Cumberland Jeffersons in the wine and spirits business in > various towns. Does this suggest a possible family relationship, > or, perhaps, the tendency to follow along in father's business, > which after many many generations, could spread quite distant > cousins in the same business over the countryside? Just a thought. > Again thanks for DIGITAL LIBRARY OF HISTORICAL DIRECTORIES OF THE > UNIVERSITY OF LEICESTER. > Tim

Hi, Further inspection of the Haile Parish Records shows that an Isaac Kitchen was the curate at Haile in the years 1814 to 1816 and he was succeeded by Abraham Brown in 1817. Mel ----- Original Message ----- From: "John & Jill Coulthard" <jjcoulthard@btinternet.com> To: "Melville Cowin" <mel_cowin@btopenworld.com>; <ENG-CUL-COPELAND-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, January 10, 2003 11:26 AM Subject: Re: [CUL-COP] Schoolboy Parson > Dear Mel, > > Many thanks for this. However, I think what was discussed may have been a > bit misleading. I was telling Dorothy that the only Kitchens mentioned in > the book were in the 1880s and therefore much too late to be attached to > this tale. > > The story relates to the years about 1807-1808 when from the book the > Headmaster of St. Bees/Vicar of Haile would have been Rev. John Barnes > (Headmaster 1791-1811) or even possibly Rev. William Wilson (1811-1816). > If the future curate "Kitchen" was at that time in the upper class of the > school then one would presume that after a university education his reported > curacy would have been about 1812 onwards.

Tim, Let me explore the print options. As to family traditions, I'll have to think about that. I initiatively thought it would be confined but have noticed lately a lot of movement in location and occupation that has surprised me. 'Course a lot of that that is just an American's lack of understanding of Cumberland geography. But would like to hear from others ; I do believe there is a correlation between occupations and family. David

David -- Thanks for this. It is fun and valuable. The problem that I am having is printing pages. It tends to cut off the bottom of the 8 1/2 x 11" paper that I use. Could it be set up for a larger page format? Is it possible to shrink or even print the bottom of the page on a second page? It has been spitting out a blank second page when I print. On the genealogical side, I have recorded from the 1829 Pigot several Cumberland Jeffersons in the wine and spirits business in various towns. Does this suggest a possible family relationship, or, perhaps, the tendency to follow along in father's business, which after many many generations, could spread quite distant cousins in the same business over the countryside? Just a thought. Again thanks for DIGITAL LIBRARY OF HISTORICAL DIRECTORIES OF THE UNIVERSITY OF LEICESTER. Tim ----- Original Message ----- From: <CDKnow@aol.com> To: <ENG-CUL-COPELAND-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, January 11, 2003 9:13 PM Subject: [CUL-COP] Pigot online > Hello, > > As long as I've been involved in UK genealogy I've heard of Pigot. But I'd > never seen it. The University of Leicester has put scanned images of at least > 4 of his and at least 8 of other directories on line - > http://www.historicaldirectories.org/ . > > I don't remember who posted or sent me this but I have to thank you ! It was > about a month ago and I'm just now getting to it. > > If it came from here I apologize for the repost. > > I know "extreme" and "must see" (among others) are terribly overused phrases > ; but this really is a must see site. > > David > ps It is a little difficult to navigate. > > ______________________________

Hi Would anyone know of a site that gives information on cemeteries in Cumbria Cheers Bert --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.443 / Virus Database: 248 - Release Date: 10/01/2003