Help! Someone e-mailed me off-list in reply (I guess) to this subject, but my server froze as I was opening it. On re-starting the message has disappeared completely. Please send again. Best wishes, Roz

JEFFERSON Family of Whitehaven Henry Jefferson (1750-1827) had many children all with his wife Ann (Tweedie) Jefferson. Ten were mentioned by name in his will. The three not mentioned were Elizabeth, Sarah, and Harriot. That was not quite accurate, that is a Sarah was mentioned in the will, but the Holy Trinity records show a Sarah baptised in 1787, another Sarah along with a sister Elizabeth baptised in 1793. Harriot was the 1791 born child. It is important to remember that parish records show only the child's name, the father's and date of baptism, as 14 Sep Sarah dau. of Henry Jefferson. (The year is at the top of the page.) I am currently going with an explanation (a theory) that Sarah '87 died young. Either for the memory of the child or the memory of child's namesake another daughter in '93 was baptised with the same name -- also possibly a godparent's decision. This would mean that Sarah's sisters Elizabeth and Harriot also died young. All of these names are found repeatedly in the family (with the spelling of Harriet more conventional). Since only the father's name and not the mother's is listed in the parish records, another possibility is that the '93 sisters belong to another Henry Jefferson. I am not aware of another Henry Jefferson in that parish at that time. This family was blessed with good health and longevity. I have just added an observation to my other notes that this Henry father (born 1750) and his son Henry (still alive at the 1891 census) may have had a combined life span of 150 years (141 appears to be documented). Still infant mortality can strike and looking at the ages of those buried at Holy Trinity it appeared to be a real problem at the beginning of the 19th century in Whitehaven. Any thoughts on these 2 Sarahs??? _____________________ Tim Anderson Gaithersburg, Maryland

A blacksmith for your collection, Chris: >From Arthuret parish register:- 17 May 1791 Baptism of Margaret daughter of Andrew LITTLE, Blacksmith of Longtown, & his wife Jane (nee ELLIOT) Know nothing else about this family, but am wondering whether Margaret may be the same Margaret LITTLE who married Hugh JAMES in Arthuret in 1812. She was living in English Street, Longtown in 1851, age given as 61. Does anyone have any connections?

Hello: As one new to the list, I hope that someone can help me in my search for information about the family of Thomas Taylor (#2) of Cumberland County in the late 1500s and early 1600s. He was born in Hadleigh, Suffolk County in about 1573, the son of Thomas Taylor (#1) and Elizabeth Burwell. Thomas Taylor (2) married Margaret Swinderby (Swinderley?), born in Copenhagen, Denmark, and, according to some researchers they had these children, all born in Cumberland County: Robert Taylor b. Nov. 7, 1601 Margaret Taylor b. Sep. 10, 1603 JOHN TAYLOR (my ancestor) b. August 10, 1607 Jane Taylor b. Dec. 25, 1609 Ann Taylor b. abt. 1611 Richard Taylor b. abt. 1615. The John Taylor above and an unknown named wife had these children: John Taylor b. 1627 Robert Taylor b. 1630 William Taylor b.1632 James Taylor b. 1634 THOMAS TAYLOR (my ancestor) b. 1637 Mary Taylor b.(?) Acccording to family legend, John Taylor emigrated to Virginia in about 1637 with some of his children. My Thomas Taylor was said to have followed him to Virginia in 1650. It has been said by some Taylors that the Thomas Taylor (#2) family lived at "Pennington Castle" in Cumberland County but that is not correct. There is no Pennington Castle as such but the Pennington family has resided at Muncaster Castle for many centuries. According to recent research done for me by the Cumbria Record Office, there are no records of this Taylor family associated with the Pennington family, Muncaster parishes or Pennington parish during this era. And the record office did not find a Taylor listed on the "Freemen" of Carlisle during that period. There has been much misinformation passed on by Taylor researchers about this family and I would like to find solid proof to back up the lineage being claimed by so many. However, I have not been able to find any records in Cumberland/Cumbria County of the existence of either the Thomas Taylor (#2) or the John Taylor families. Does anyone have information about any Taylors who lived in this area of Cumberland County during that time? Any assistance will be much appreciated. Norvill Jones

Sorry this was meant to go to the list Patricia ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Saturday, September 28, 2002 9:41 PM Subject: Re: [CUL-COP] Blacksmiths > Chris > I am trying to make a connection here and the connection is Lamplugh > My grandfather was a Blacksmith he married into a family that where Iron ore > Miners, his family where all in Weaving, his father was a tailor. > But the two postings you have put on list where both from Lamplugh and my > grandfather was a blacksmith in Lamplugh, was it known for apprentice > Blacksmiths, was there a large forge there! > Sorry to mess up your experiment ( I know there's always one) Let me know > when you get to Nursing. > > Patricia > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Chris Dickinson <chris@dickinson.uk.net> > To: <ENG-CUL-COPELAND-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Saturday, September 28, 2002 8:49 PM > Subject: [CUL-COP] Blacksmiths > > > > Hi All > > > > I want to try an experiment. > > > > People tend to marry into familes of the same profession or > > trade. I'd like to see whether a collection of [blacksmiths, > > grocers, doctors, etc.] will help you to make links. > > > > We'll try this with BLACKSMITHS and, if it works, do some others > > later. > > > > So ... please have a look through your files and post any > > examples, at any period, that you have of blacksmiths in > > Cumberland. > > > > Unless you are posting something like a trade directory, please > > use the format: > > > > Subject line: Blacksmiths - SURNAME > > > > Message body: > > > > (1) details of the blacksmith or the family > > > > (2) any families that they married into: SURNAME 1, SURNAME 2, > > etc.. > > > > (3) comments, stories, queries, brickwalls, whatever. > > > > > > Chris > > chris@dickinson.uk.net > > ENG-CUL-CARLISLE-admin@rootsweb.com > > ENG-CUL-COPELAND-admin@rootsweb.com > > > > > > > > > > > > ============================== > > To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, > go to: > > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 > > >

BRANTHWAITE of Whinnah and Todhole in Lamplugh. Blacksmiths and mariners. Eighteenth century. married: Harrison, Sharp, Dickinson, Jackson, Benn, Atkinson, Saul comments: lots of Branthwaite researchers. Most (maybe all?) Branthwaites in Copeland seem to trace back to Lamplugh.

ATKINSON of Bankend and Lanefoot in Lamplugh and of Arlecdon. Blacksmiths, late eighteenth century. married: Mirehouse, Youert, Pearson, Dickinson, Hodgson comments: quite a number of Atkinson researchers who know far more about this than I; and can provide details. Chris chris@dickinson.uk.net

Hi All I want to try an experiment. People tend to marry into familes of the same profession or trade. I'd like to see whether a collection of [blacksmiths, grocers, doctors, etc.] will help you to make links. We'll try this with BLACKSMITHS and, if it works, do some others later. So ... please have a look through your files and post any examples, at any period, that you have of blacksmiths in Cumberland. Unless you are posting something like a trade directory, please use the format: Subject line: Blacksmiths - SURNAME Message body: (1) details of the blacksmith or the family (2) any families that they married into: SURNAME 1, SURNAME 2, etc.. (3) comments, stories, queries, brickwalls, whatever. Chris chris@dickinson.uk.net ENG-CUL-CARLISLE-admin@rootsweb.com ENG-CUL-COPELAND-admin@rootsweb.com

Anne, The Parton boats are from Parton village which is about a mile north of Whitehaven. Mel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Anne" <docwras@yahoo.co.uk> To: <ENG-CUL-COPELAND-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2002 11:43 AM Subject: [CUL-COP] Herrings in Whitehaven > In case anyone has fishing ancestors in Whitehaven, this snippet from > the Lancaster Gazette dated 28 June 1828 may be of interest: > > > "Herrings have begun to make their appearance off Whitehaven. A few > were taken by the Parton boats last week which took a ready market at > 3d. per fish." > > > I wondered if the Parton boats were owned by people of that name or if > they are a type of boat? The snippet doesn't say.

Sorry, I meant to send to list as well. Patricia ----- Original Message ----- From: ashpat <ashpat@tinyonline.co.uk> To: Chris Dickinson <chris@dickinson.uk.net> Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 4:47 PM Subject: Re: [CUL-COP] The Mark [was: Cumbrian Manors] > Is that where we get the saying, near the mark > > Patricia > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Chris Dickinson <chris@dickinson.uk.net> > To: <ENG-CUL-COPELAND-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 3:03 PM > Subject: Re: [CUL-COP] The Mark [was: Cumbrian Manors] > > > > In Eric Fawcett's most appropriate example of the summoning of > > the manor court of Egremont, we get: > > > > >the people who were summoned to the Court Leet and did not > > >attend were both fined 3 shillings and 4 pence and were > > >detailed in the Court minutes !! > > > > > > I've previously mentioned 6s 8d; and it's just struck me that > > some of you may not know why such peculiar sums come up. > > > > Multiply 3s 4d by 6, or 6s 8d by 3, and you get 20s or £1. > > > > Such sums were, in other words, convenient sub-divisions, not > > precise valuations of something. In fact, when used officially or > > in accounts in early records, they are sub-divisions of the > > 'MARK' (a unit of account) that was valued at 13s 4d (two-thirds > > of £1). > > > > > > Chris > > chris@dickinson.uk.net > > > > > > ============================== > > To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, > go to: > > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 > > >

In Eric Fawcett's most appropriate example of the summoning of the manor court of Egremont, we get: >the people who were summoned to the Court Leet and did not >attend were both fined 3 shillings and 4 pence and were >detailed in the Court minutes !! I've previously mentioned 6s 8d; and it's just struck me that some of you may not know why such peculiar sums come up. Multiply 3s 4d by 6, or 6s 8d by 3, and you get 20s or £1. Such sums were, in other words, convenient sub-divisions, not precise valuations of something. In fact, when used officially or in accounts in early records, they are sub-divisions of the 'MARK' (a unit of account) that was valued at 13s 4d (two-thirds of £1). Chris chris@dickinson.uk.net

Edgar Iredale writes: >I do know that the Lorton/Loweswater area was pretty >well populated with Iredales. What I'm >unsure of is if my particular branch came from there. >They seem to have been in Workington by 1688 and maybe before, >but after that it's only a family tradition that our John came >from Iredale Place which has already been proved wrong This sort of thing is a problem for many of us. Interested in a common Cumberland name? Then you're quite likely to find that the surname is saturated in one particular area. So, your surname in Loweswater. Mine on the Lamplugh/Arlecdon border. There are other little batches in this area : PEARSON, WOOD, MIEHOUSE, JACKSON, to name just a few. The only way to solve this is by doing a lot of research. Chris chris@dickinson.uk.net

I will try this again in hope.... <A HREF="http://www.nd.edu/~archives/latgramm.htm">Latin Dictionary and Grammar Aid</A> <A HREF="http://cpcug.org/user/jlacombe/terms.html">A List of Occupations</A> These may help those looking for old occupations and latin for those of you who are that far back in your trees LOL Pam xx

1641 Protestation Returns for Cleator all adult males total number: 67 number with surname of Fearon: 14 all adult females total number: 69 number with surname of Fearon: 14 Chris chris@dickinson.uk.net

Dear Chris, Thank you. I haven't seen the Protestation Returns, but I do know that the Lorton/Loweswater area was pretty well populated with Iredales. What I'm unsure of is if my particular branch came from there. They seem to have been in Workington by 1688 and maybe before, but after that it's only a family tradition that our John came from Iredale Place which has already been proved wrong in its timescale - the tradition picked the wrong John. Edgar On Thursday 26 September 2002 9:46 pm, Chris Dickinson wrote: > Edgar Iredale wrote: > > <snip> > > >I knew there had been Beebys at Allonby but hadn't made any real > >links to our Dinah and it was rather your Lamplugh connection > >I thought might bear fruit as I've a theory my Iredales came > >from Loweswater originally. > > <snip> > > > > 1641 Protestation Returns for Loweswater > (listing all adult males) > > total number: 131 > number with surname of Iredell: 17 > > > Chris > chris@dickinson.uk.net

Edgar Iredale wrote: <snip> >I knew there had been Beebys at Allonby but hadn't made any real >links to our Dinah and it was rather your Lamplugh connection >I thought might bear fruit as I've a theory my Iredales came >from Loweswater originally. <snip> 1641 Protestation Returns for Loweswater (listing all adult males) total number: 131 number with surname of Iredell: 17 Chris chris@dickinson.uk.net

To complement Chris's information on Cumberland Manors I detail below a typical Court meeting at Egremont. "The Lordship of Egremont" "These are to will and require you to give publick notice within the said Lordship that the Court Leet of our Sovereign Lord the King with the Court Baron of the Right Honourable George O'Brien Earl of Egremont and Baron of Cockermouth Lord of the said Lordship will hold at the Castle at Egremont in and for the said Lordship on Wednesday the fifth day of May next at ten of the clock in the fore noon of the same day and that you all Tenants of and Tenants within the said Lordship that do owe suit and Service to the said Courts that they be and appear at the time and place aforesaid then and there to perform the same and likewise that you Summon twenty-four honest and Lawful men of the said Lordship that they be and appear at the time and place appointed to Enquire of all such matter and things as to the said Courts do appertain and that you yourself be then and there also personally present and have you there them the names of all such persons as you shall have so summoned together with this precept given under my hand and seal the twelth day of April 1704. signed by Thomas Benson (Steward) This was addressed to Mr. John Benson Bailiff of the said Lordship." What is interesting and useful to we Family researchers is the fact the the people who were summoned to the Court Leet and did not attend were both fined 3 shillings and 4 pence and were detailed in the Court minutes !! - as follows for this Court Leet " Of Mosser - Amerciant (punish by fine) JOHN ROBINSON - Mosser Mains JOHN HOLESTOCK JOHN DIXON The heirs of JOHN ROBINSON of Beechhill JOHN WILSON JOHN FEARON CHRIS. FEARON of Mill Dam JOHN WALKER of Gilbrow People in High House THOMAS PEARSON JANET ROBINSON JAPHET FLETCHER THOMAS PEARSON of Mid Town JOHN ROGERS JANET DICKINSON JOHN WILLIAMSON DANIEL FAWCETT WILLIAM JACKSON RICHARD ALLASON JOHN ROBINSON junior JOHN ROBINSON PHILIP BUNYEAT. Over to you Chris. Eric Fawcett

Hello List, ( I am not sure that this posting arrived on the List so I post it again) My family interests are connected to the Quaker Meeting house at Pardshaw - the Fawcett Family were Yeoman farmers from at least 1600 in Mosser and when the Quaker movement came to the area like many other farming families they joined the new religion. As a close knit community many families inter-married and I have researched most of them. I detail below the major families connected to the Pardshaw meeting from 1650 to 1800. I offer a look-up service for this Quaker community that also encompasses the meetings at Broughton, Isel, Holme as well as Pardshaw. If you have hit a brick wall with your research through the normal parish records I may be able to help - it is surprising the number of Cumberland families that were involved in the Quaker movement - in a lot of cases by being members it caused distress and even death. Families: ABBATT, ALLASON, BELL, BLACK, BURNYEAT, DICKINSON, DEARMAN, DIXON, FAWCETT, FEARON, FLETCHER, GILL, GLAISTER, HALL, HARRIS, HEAD, HUDSON, JACKSON, MIREHOUSE, NICHOLSON, NIXON, NUTT, PATTINSON, PEARSON, PEILE, ROBINSON, SAUL, WALKER, WILKINSON, WILSON & WOODVILLE. Eric Fawcett ==============================

Anne writes: >In case anyone has fishing ancestors in Whitehaven, this snippet >from the Lancaster Gazette dated 28 June 1828 may be of interest: >"Herrings have begun to make their appearance off Whitehaven. A >few were taken by the Parton boats last week which took a ready >market at 3d. per fish." My ancestor Daniel Dickinson bought (probably in Whitehaven) 60 fresh herring for 6d on 8th June 1685. :-) Chris chris@dickinson.uk.net

Before lands became enclosed and tenants enfranchised, the manor needed a system of regulation. How were resources to be shared and disputes settled? At the top of the system was the HEAD COURT (the 'Court Leet' or 'Court Baron'). This was presided over by a Steward (or similar title) and consisted of a JURY of yeomen. The jury had the power to make decisions, create local law and punish. They were judge, jury and executioner. Only yeomen could become jurymen, and only a minority were regular members. The manor was, in other words, ruled by an oligarchy. The Head Court dealt with two types of things. First, it dealt with the 'feudal' relationships between the Lord of the Manor and the tenants. The Lord couldn't stop a yeoman from succeeding to the tenancy of his father or from selling his tenancy, but the court could confirm the status quo. This provides valuable evidence to support what you find in parish registers, for the decision of the jury would be recorded as [names/places invented]: "We find John Tyson deceased since the last Court holden, and we find Robert Tyson his Son, heir to his father, of one messuage & tenement called Moorside, being of the Annual Rent of Six Shillings and Eightpence" or "We find Matthew Taylor purchased from his father Cuthbert Taylor of one half messuage and tenement at Bogyeat being at the Annual Rent of One Shilling and Sixpence Halfpenny according to the Indenture" The last example might suggest that Cuthbert was making sure that both his sons inherited and that both remained yeoman, entitled to all manorial privileges. Maybe they actually ran the farm together, or maybe Matthew earned his living as a tailor or some such. And the second job of the Head Court? Well, I'll deal with that in another post. to be continued ... [Comments, additions and criticisms welcomed] Chris chris@dickinson.uk.net