Hello jjcoulthard@btinternet.com, In reference to your comment: è Their sister Martha was known throughout her life as è Patty which I understand was a diminutive for that è name though one I had never come across until è recently. My Great Grandmother was Martha and was known as Pat, my mum later given the name Patricia after my g grandmother. rob ========Original Message======== Subj: [CUL-CAR] What's in a name - was Francis / Frances Date: 19/04/2003 15:41:12 GMT Daylight Time From: <A HREF="mailto:jjcoulthard@btinternet.com">jjcoulthard@btinternet.com</A> To: <A HREF="mailto:ENG-CUL-CARLISLE-L@rootsweb.com">ENG-CUL-CARLISLE-L@rootsweb.com</A> Sent from the Internet (Details) Hi Everyone, I have always thought there was a complete distinction in UK between the male and female versions. In 1748 there was a marriage in our family between Francis Outram and Frances Chambers. Practically every generation from then on named a boy Francis and a girl Frances, distinguished as Frank and Fanny. Eventually they gave up the formal name and just baptised the children as the latter. The last I know of was my father-in-law named Frank and he had an aunt and uncle Frank and Fanny. I have just tested this out on IGI and as David says they make a distinction between the two sexes. Interestingly they recognise Fanny as an alternative for Frances but treat Frank as a separate name to Francis. F-i-L also had two aunts from another side baptised Kate and Lizzie not Catherine and Elizabeth. Their sister Martha was known throughout her life as Patty which I understand was a diminutive for that name though one I had never come across until recently. Jill ============================== To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237