Hi Listers, Are there any historians among you that might be able to help me with regards to a very frustrating problem. I am researching the name of MADG(E)N mainly living in the Alston/Nenthead and surrounding areas. I have recently been contacted by a young lady who is researching the name of MADG(I)N in the same areas, though I must say that some of them appear to have slid down to Northumberland. Can anyone tell me if these two families could in some way be related. The names and dates she has quoted on her Tree does not match anyone on my Tree, but the similarity of the name is frustrating. Can anyone help Researching MADGEN, MADGIN Thanks for your help Dotty way down in Surrey, England

Hi Everyone, I spotted this on a list thought I would pass it on. 1841. Was taken on the night of the 7th of June. This census will only give you surname, forename, age rounded in fives for anyone over the age of 14. i.e. John 35, Mary 30, when their real ages may have been 33 and 28. And, whether born in the county (where the census is taken), yes or no. Take care when copying children of the household down, as in this census some of them may not be the children of the householder - may be relatives, or just visitors, or even children of one of the parents by a former marriage. The \ or backward slash or mark by the enumerator indicates the end of that particular family or household. 7mo in the age column will mean a child 7 months old, as is 7w = 7 weeks. Some 1841 records are very light on the page, due to the fact that the enumerators used pencils, but most are fairly good. Birthplaces outside of England and Wales are listed as F, for foreign, unless it be Scotland - S, or Ireland - I (or Ire). 1851. Taken on the night of 8th of April. This census now gives the head of the family and the relationship of everyone in the household to the head -- the condition, i.e. whether married, single (sometimes U for unmarried instead of S) W for widow or widower -- age not rounded in fives, but usually suspect anyway, and divided into a column for males and one for females, very useful with difficult forenames! -- Where born? Also a column for whether blind, deaf & dumb! Care ought to be taken when checking children's ages, as the father may have put the child's age up so as to extract more money from the child's employer. The relationship of children to the head of the family can be son S, daughter D, niece or nephew N, but usually spelt out. Then there are others not so easy to decipher according to the bad writing. FIL - Father-in-law, MIL - mother-in-law, DIL - daughter-in-law! C- cousin, but normally spelt out. Uncles and aunts are a bit of a problem, U and A sometimes look like the same letter, but check the sex column. V, of course, for visitor, possibly related, but not necessarily so. Most enumerators spelt everything out -- others couldn't be bothered. A profession of A.Lab, or Ag.Lab is always Agricultural Labourer. Teenagers were often shown as farm-hands or servants in their own household. A number of booklets/microfiche surname indexes of the 1851 exist, mainly collated by family history societies and other record agencies. Check out the FHS for your county, or the county record office. The PRO holds a number of census indexes. In general you will not find listers with access to census indexes, unless, a) they live close to a library that holds them, b) they have bought a certain district (booklet or microfiche) for their own use. Indexes are usually surname only. The index may contain a few thousand people, and possibly JONES may be shown on numerous folio pages of the microfilm, for instance 3, 14, 15, 16, 17, 21, 23, 27, all the way up to several hundred folios. Once in a while you may be lucky enough to find an index that not only has the surname, but the forename as well, and even the street or area listed. This certainly cuts down your work. I have been known to scroll completely through numerous microfilms checking every ROBERTS, JONES, etc.simply because there was no index available. 1841 & 1851 census piece numbers, as they are called, commence with HO. The censuses after 1851 then commenced with the letters RG. You can sometimes check these out, simply by accessing the family history library catalog on www.familysearch.org For the 1891 census for Whittington, at least, the piece number will be RG 12/2118, on four microfiche. That's all for now. Tomorrow - 1861 to 1901. Pam

Swinsty Holme Cultram mid-17thC - ?

Hi All One of the most useful Cumbrian reference books you can have on your shelves is Freda Jackson's 'A Place Name Index of Habitations in Cumberland'. Invaluable if you want to find the location or correct spelling of a farm. What doesn't exist, as far as I know, is something that, having a surname, you can look to see which farm the surname might have come from (the only way you can try to do this at the moment is by looking at probate indexes). So, folks, what I'd like you to do is to post in any farm + surname connections that you have. The only 'rule' about this is that the surname should be connected to (not necessarily own) the farm for a minimum of two generations. e.g. Subject: Farm Surname - Younghusband Lower Nook FarTooRemote Parish c1760-1820 Upper Nook FarTooRemote Parish c1720- (present day) Give it a go! Chris chris@dickinson.uk.net

Chris, I'm sorry, the location is Haston Tringham not Halston. Bill

To Chis Dickenson: My grandmother's name is Annie Wright and came from Halston Tringham. Would your index show any thing about this location? Bill Ford - will119@attbi.com

Robyn Hilan writes: >Possible ancestors surnamed Martin are noted in the Bishops transcripts for Bridekirk as "excommunicated" being non conformists, 1670-73 and were reported in the Bishops Visitation on 1674. Would this imply they were Quakers, or are there other options at that early time. I am trying to verify the birth of James Martin in 1700, so any suggestions as to where else I can look would be appreciated. Thanks ..... Besse's Sufferings mentions two Martins: John Martin imprisoned for testifying against the priest of Kirkbride 1653. Margaret Martin imprisoned for refusing to swear 1660. Chris chris@dickinson.uk.net

Descendants of Nicholas Williamson 1 Nicholas Williamson .. +Elizabeth .. 2 Gawen Williamson - d.1692 of Ormathwaite .........+Ann ...3 Ann Williamson - d.1677 of Ormathwaite .........+GEORGE BROWNRIGG b.1655 - (b. in Crosthwaite - d. in Wigton) had land in Gosforth, Muncaster and Walney ....4 George Brownrigg 1677 - 1760 ..........+Mary Brownrigg 1690 - 1770 ....5 Elizabeth Brownrigg 1710 - 1738 (b.in Bridekirk) ..........+Timothy Nicholson of Whitehaven, mar. in Crosthwaite 1731 ....5 William Brownrigg, Dr. 1712 - 1800 ..........+Mary Spedding 1721 - 1794 of Mirehouse, Whitehaven ....2 Margaret Williamson ..........+Mr. Dover of Millbeck This Williamson family owned land at Ormathwaite and was evidently related, though I do not know how, to the Williamsons of Millbeck. I have a tree for the Williamsons of Newhall, one of whom is described as 'of Millbeck', but it has few dates. Other Williamsons include Sir Joseph (1633-1701) bapt. at Bridekirk against whom George Brownrigg issued a bill of complaint, Geoffrey Williamson (son of William) and Sergeant Williamson (name or rank?). The Williamson lands in Millbeck seem to have later passed to a Mr. Wilkinson of Thornthwaite. Dr. William Brownrigg (1712-1800) in 1774 bought Millbeck Hall for 2,600 pounds. Can anyone link all these people together? Ann Brownrigg (Costa Rica)

www.old-maps.co.uk/ shows, on an 1868 map, the place as Limekiln Nook Cottage. Go to above site and enter the co-ordinate 336880,540710 You'll need to zoom in but there it is. In www.multimap.com/home.html use the post code CA5 7DY in 'Quick search' to find it. In this case you'll need to zoom out one level. Address is given as Limekiln Nook, Sebergham, Carlisle CA5 7DY. Eddie ----- Original Message ----- From: "alde" <alde@prodigy.net> To: <ENG-CUL-CARLISLE-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 5:42 PM Subject: [CUL-CAR] Lime Kiln Nook > Hello listers, I need some help. I am looking for info on a very small place called Lime Kiln Nook. Its about 1.4 miles se, about, from Sebergham. I imagine its just a small street, maybe a dead end. I would like to know.. > 1. Does it still exist? > 2. What does it look like? > 3. How long is it? > 4. Any photos available on the web? > 5. Are people still living on it? Or is it a highway, hospital, school, whatever. > > Hope someone near Sebergham knows. Thanks, Nancy > > > ============================== > To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 > >

Trevor Littleton wrote: <snip> >It is a very old farmhouse - possibly two. I say two because one >of my ancestors, Henry Relph lived there in the early 18th >century at the same time as a Daniel Relph. There is also >mentioned in the same time period, someone else of >a different surname. <snip> My experience, for what it's worth, is that just about all small place names in Cumberland before the mid-eighteenth century have two or more families in residence. Sometimes this is because, as you imply, they are hamlets containing two or three separate farms. Another reason can be that the second family is actually that of a farm worker. Another reason can be that the farm inheritance has been subdivided, with siblings having moieties. I've suggested before that this might have been done to ensure that both brothers retained 'yeoman' status and thereby rights over common land and within the manorial court system. Another reason can be that farms, then as now, weren't economically viable just through 'farming' (especially where 'feudal' rights, like those over wood, still remained in the hands of the Lord of the Manor). Farms were actually little industrial estates that exploited every resource available - the older brother might farm but his brother-in-law would cobble shoes and his sister spin hemp into sheets and ropes. Chris chris@dickinson.uk.net

I quite agree with Chris as regards the viability of farming before the Agricultural Revolution. My family have 'always' been farmers so I was quite surprised to find that although their addresses were of many of the farms in Cumberland & Westmorland we know today, they also followed various trades. This brings us onto another subject - the definition of a Husbandman. During the nineteenth century, the term husbandman related someone who worked for someone else but was a tenant in a smallholding or a tenant farmer operating on a subsistance level and subsidizing his income with other work (to put it another way). However, upto the last quarter of the eighteenth century, the term husbandman refered to the occupation of farming. I have come accross various Wills of quite genteel persons being refered to as Husbandmen! During the same time, the term farmer usually meant making a income from a tenancy, whether it was land or premises. Yeoman in the nineteenth century refered to a small landowner, or someone who owned the farm on which they lived. Upto the last quarter of the eighteenth century it had a very different meaning - it refered to all persons who owned an estate which was worth £20 per annum (I think that was the amount) That is why, when reading earlier Wills you get people living in the middle of Carlisle, carrying on with very urban trades being refered to as Yeomen. In short, it was a status term as opposed to being occupational. Sorry for going off the original subject. Regards, Trevor Littleton

Hi All, I am still trying to pin down my Elizabeth Gill and her mother, probably Jemima Gill. Here is what I have. Jemima Gill gave birth in the St. Mary's Workhouse, Carlisle, on 28 Mar 1806, to Elizabeth Gill, illegitimate, no father given. The only other thing I can find that might possibly fit Jemima is a questionable birth in Whitehaven abt. 1795, That would make her about 11 years old when Elizabeth was born. Possible. Elizabeth Gill m. Daniel Skelton 5 April 1877 in Kirkbride. They had four children that I have been able to find, all born in Kirkbride. Margaret, b. 1829 from whom I am descended Joseph, b. 1830 Jane b. 1834 Jemima b. 1836 Thanks for your time, Jackie

Hello Nancy, Yes, the place does still exist. It is a very old farmhouse - possibly two. I say two because one of my ancestors, Henry Relph lived there in the early 18th century at the same time as a Daniel Relph. There is also mentioned in the same time period, someone else of a different surname. The property is shown on a modern OS map (although I haven't one to hand to give you the grid reference) just south of the Wigton - Penrith road near a Public House called The Royal Oak in an area called Sour Nook (Sour Nook is also the name the locals call the pub) Because there were at least three families living at Limekiln Nook in the 18th century, it is a possiblity that it was name for the area before Sour Nook. I say this because Edward Relph, Henry's son, is described as of Sour Nook in the 1770's. Sorry about not giving you a definative answer but I have done only a limited amount of work on my Relph ancestry. If I can establish anything more about the place, I will let you know. Cheers, Trevor Littleton

Hello listers, I need some help. I am looking for info on a very small place called Lime Kiln Nook. Its about 1.4 miles se, about, from Sebergham. I imagine its just a small street, maybe a dead end. I would like to know.. 1. Does it still exist? 2. What does it look like? 3. How long is it? 4. Any photos available on the web? 5. Are people still living on it? Or is it a highway, hospital, school, whatever. Hope someone near Sebergham knows. Thanks, Nancy

Hi list Can any one say where or what Ishome is? In a will dated 1844 in the Torpenhow Parish, the widow was quoted as Sarah Briscoe, of Ishome As the will referred to the disposal of two Messuages with 80 and 90 acres respectively for Bothel and Threapland can anyone say whether this is a place or a farm name? Bryan Richards

Possible ancestors surnamed Martin are noted in the Bishops transcripts for Bridekirk as "excommunicated" being non conformists, 1670-73 and were reported in the Bishops Visitation on 1674. Would this imply they were Quakers, or are there other options at that early time. I am trying to verify the birth of James Martin in 1700, so any suggestions as to where else I can look would be appreciated. Thanks ..... robyn

Info to gain maybe info that is missing from searches: Hi Everyone, I have copied the following from a mailing to one of the lists. They are records I didn't know existed and may help someone find a missing ancestor. Parish Chest records usually consist of vestry minutes that were taken down by the clerk of the vestry at the parish church. The vestry usually consisted of 12 persons, usually those of more stable means than the other parishioners. They were entrusted with repairs to the church, required to administer the poor law, manage charities, sometimes administer the workhouse (the parish priest was usually the chaplain of the workhouse), raise money for repair to the highways, and all manner of things, including "control" of the village constable. Parish Chest records also consist of Churchwardens' Accounts, which are the records of the taxes that had to be paid by parishioners to the parish.. Taxes were often paid at Ladies Day, and at Easter. The Easter Tithes generally show all those required to pay taxes on land, house & garden (believe it!) a pig, cows, horses, hives of bees, fields of corn, flax, turnips, etc. When they employed a milk-maid my ggg-grandparents Thomas & Martha Peate of Alberbury Parish paid an extra four-pence tax for her. (Easter Tithes 1810). These accounts often give the place where the taxpayer lives. If it had not been for the Churchwardens' Accounts of Alberbury (where Thomas & Elizabeth had their children christened), I would not have known that they were farming at Criggion, further to the West and on the Montgomeryshire border. Bingo! Sometimes mention is made in Vestry Minutes and Churchwardens' Accounts of pew rentals. Pews were rented out, and often were handed down in the family from generation to generation. It was fairly normal in the late 1700s for pews to be rented out for about a shilling or one and sixpence a year. The ceasing of payment for a pew might indicate that the family has died out, moved away, or in the case of a widow, re-married. These records are often available from County Record Offices and many have also been microfilmed by the LDS folk. One Ellesmere record described every stick of furniture in the workhouse! Some poor of the parish, who were not in the workhouse, are often mentioned as being given "five shillings to the Widow Green for relief," or words to that effect, and often given on a six monthly basis for a number of years. One parish I was researching had a yearly bequest that had to be distributed to the poor. Interesting thing was that many on the vestry who were administering the bequest (virtually all one family) were receiving the money themselves! And one had a butler! Pam

These are all from the LDS Film for St. Nicholas (St. Bees) #90658 for Whitehaven......I just put them in date order. Btw......was the Whitehaven area populated entirely by Mossops and Dickinsons??? (grin). Jill and Chris most definitely have to be related!! 1833.... Burial of William MOSSOP, of Egremont, 21 Aug. 1833, 32 years old. 1834........ Marriage of Henry MOSSOP, bachelor, and Mary DICKINSON, spinster, both of this parish, by Licence, 5 July 1834. Witnesses: Clement MOSSOP and William HODGSON. Baptism - Clement MOSSOP, son of Clement & Martha MOSSOP, of Rottington, farmer, 28 Sept. 1834 Baptism - Mary MOSSOP, daughter of Henry & Jane MOSSOP, Sandwith, husbandman, 23 Nov. 1834 Baptism - Thomas TUBMAN, son of Richard & Susanne TUBMAN, Croft Pit, joiner, 21 Dec. 1834 Marriage - Isaac TUBMAN and Jane WATSON, bachelor and spinster, by Banns, 30 Nov. 1834 Witnesses: William STAMPER and Georgina DOUGLAS. Marriage of William LANGCAKE of Harrington and Mary BOADLE, 1 Dec. 1834 Burial of Jane MOSSOP of Preston Hows, 31 Jan. 1834, 55 years old. Burial of William DICKENSON of Bank End, 17 Feb. 1834, 58 years. 1835....... Baptism - Isabella MOSSOP, daughter of Isaac & Isabella MOSSOP, Preston Hows.....Isaac was a husbandman. Baptism - Isaac DICKINSON, son of David & Sarah DICKINSON, St. Bees......father was a labourer. Baptism - Isaac, (base born), son of James MARSHALL and Jane MOSSOP, Coulderton, shoemaker and spinster respectively. Not 100% sure if surname was given as I didn't write one down for the child. I can check if anyone wants. If this was Jamaica, it would have been the father's name.......whether he acknowledged the child or not. I am assuming that in England, if the father attends the baptism, then the child would probably carry his surname (definitely the method in Jamaica). Someone please correct me if I am wrong. Heck, it was the last one, and I may have missed the surname if it indeed was written down. Mea culpa. Cheers......from a lovely plus 2 degrees in Brampton, Ontario. Heather

Does anyone have the National Burial List for England & Wales? jan

Has anyone any idea where I might obtain a list of girls born, in or around Lanwathby circa 1856? David