Thanks again Sally, Yes 25 Burnes (sic) Pl is their address in 1861 census. Definitely the right people. I will look at the GathErd entries as the spelling is really flexible and they look "right" :-) Main problem I have now is that GGGF James Frederick s/o William & Mary was a bit "flighty": In 1871 he married at St Mark, Notting Hill to Mary Maria HOUGHTON of Bury St Edmunds. They had 9 children (I know of) up to the last who was born and died in late 1891. I can't find Mary's death but Mary is a common name and we know it could be Gath*rd or even Gatt*rd. Anyway in 1901 James in with "wife" Louisa (considerably younger and born Stoke Poges BKM-which is a small village so there are only a handful of Louisas that fit). They have 8 children from 1893-1905. Late last night I finally found her in 1911 census with her children listed as LOOMES. It's definitely her, still at the same address as 1901 census (23 Goldborne Gdns), down as a widow. The plot thickens and I can see a day on the laptop ahead whilst I try to wade through everything. Can't begin the thank you all enough for kick-starting me again! Sherry Ok, on the basis that the other two children are also part of the family.. Name: Alfred Gathard Birth date: 14th March 1858 Name: Mary Alice Gathard Birth date: 11th June 1854 Baptism date: Jan 29th 1860 Church: St Marylebone, Westminster Father: William Gathard Mother: Mary Gathard Residence: *one entry states 25, the other states 35, Burns (or Buns) Place Occupation: Labourer Officiating: J Llewelyn Davies There are also baptisms for children born to a William and Mary GathErd, so let me know which are yours and I'll copy out details for any that belong to you.... Margaret Gatherd May 1844 Margaret Gatherd Jun 1846 James Gatherd Feb 1849 John Gatherd Aug 1851 Mary Ann Jan 1861