Cassy, you have just given me a shot from the blue. HANDSWORTH - do you know if there is an index of HANDSWORTH burials around 1865 anywhere. Yorkie

Dave thanks for the tour & information. Do you have any information on St. Mary's Chapel it's where my James Murphy & Ellen Flynn where married on the 12th Sept 1858 he was a widower (his first wife could have been Margaret Earley) they were married in the presence of John Fleming and Sarah Child. Is St. Mary's Chapel still there and if anybody out there goes by it and has a digital camera and could E-mail a picture would certainly appreciate it. Thanks Mason mhem@bellsouth.net -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.4.1/310 - Release Date: 4/12/2006

Hello List, I have the Day Book of Joseph Crofts 1783 to 1791, my Gt Aunts father in law (I think!). He did masonary work, furnace work, building and the odd funeral. He did work for a Daniel Gorten, Moses Round, Mr Thomas of Stokes & Co. Coseley, Benet (as spelt) and Co. Birmingham, Mr Marten at Princess End, Issac Smith. In 1791 he did James Whitehouse funeral £6. Os. 9d. Names of workers are too numerous to put down, but Samuel Malen/Maulin?, William Caddick, James Guest, John Whitehouse, Joseph Baker, Joseph Tompson, are just a few that appear regularly. In 1783 he was paying 2s. 0d & 1s. 6d. a day. His father John Cofts was born 1/7/1718 Thomas Crofts was born January 1778 Sarah Crofts was born February 3rd 1780 Thomas Crofts was born August 1778 ? Ester Crofts was born September 1785 John Crofts was born July 6th 1786. As listed in the book, but difficult to read and I have no idea how the above are connected to Joseph Crofts. Liz.

I have an evidently wayward woman too, but I kind of doubt that she was free thinking. She first had two sons by an unknown father. The only birth cert I can find for the first lists a man with the same surname, in fact, her father's full name, as the father of the child. The second son was born three years later in the workhouse. No father listed. After that she took up with a new man and had two daughters with him by 1851. The census lists her as a lodger with him. The younger son is with them, but the older is with his grandparents. Next they move to a small village and declare themselves married and everyone has the new man's last name. The second son is gone. He was my great grandfather. Then when the couple got into their 60's they moved to Burton on Trent (from Leicestershire) and got married. Their second son was living there at the time, although they did not live with him or get married in the church he attended. The second son was married and had children when his mother married the man who didn't want her first sons around. (They were not to visit as she had established a new life with the new man.) When her husband died he was buried in the village they had lived in. She was sent to a workhouse to end her days. When she died no one came to pick up her body, although four or five children were available. She was buried at the workhouse. I wanted to go reclaim her, but the graves are multiple and unmarked. It has been pointed out to me that if her children did not want to retrieve her body she may have been resented by them. The second son, my great grandfather, applied for a new birth certificate when he was 18. He made himself 20, and gave the stepfather's name as his father so he would be legitimate. He then joined the Staffordshire regiment and served 10 years, followed by 25 years as a Staffordshire constable. I understand neither would have been a possible career at the time if it had been known that he was illegitimate and born in the workhouse. After a retirement job of nightwatchman at Guest, Nettlefords & Keen he took off with all but one of his family to homestead in Oklahoma territory when he was 62. His older brother served in the U.S. Civil War for the Union, went back to England and married. He then took his wife and their child to Pennsylvania and Massachusetts where he worked as a hosiery weaver. After that the now larger family moved to Australia, where I recently found the descendants.

Good afternoon all, Hopefully you might be able to throw some more light on this branch of my family. As a point of interest, I remember my grandmother saying during the war 'you'll never make a living singing but you could work for the brothers at Aston'. At the time (I was about 9) we lived at 24 Park Road, Moseley. Not to far from the county cricket ground. Some 60 years later when I started to research the family I couldn't find any brothers called Morris in Aston so I gave up that line of research. More recently I've come to the conclusion (no proof yet) that she could have meant the brothers Greenway - Tile Manufacturers. The background goes as follows: 30 June 1850 John Southall married Rachel Caroline Greenway; my gt x 2 grandparents. They were both born 1821. Their marriage cert shows them as residing at Princes End. John is recorded as Stocktaker. His father Samuel as Sawyer. Rachel's father is recorded as Joseph Griffiths Greenway - Tile Manufacturer deceased. Joseph died on 22 February 1847 age 63 at Princes End and is recorded as Tile Manufacturer. His son William Greenway was present at his death. Rachel died 18 May 1880. Still in Princes End where she and John were grocers. The above William Partridge Greenway married at St Peters and St Pauls Aston on 28 October 1840. The marriage cert again shows Joseph Griffiths Greenway and both are recorded as Tile Manufacturers. I've found a reference to Hy.Havelock Greenway shown as 21 yrs in the 1881 census. His occupation is recorded as Assistant Manager Tile Works. And, Js Luther Greenway age 28 in the 1881 census recorded as Manager of Tile Works. THIS tends to indicate that the manufacture of Tiles was a serious concern for the Greenway family. If anyone can find any more info it would be great particularly if there is a connection with Aston. This would add meaning to my grandmothers words circa 1943 (schoolteacher - very strict) All the best David Morris Ret'd in Surrey.

Hi, My gr., gr., grandfather THOMAS JAMES was a Butcher and lived on Bloomfield, Tipton, St. Paul. My great grandfather LEWIS JAMES was an Iron Moulder in Handsworth. They moved to Handsworth, then my great grandfather came the the USA. If Thomas was a butcher, would he have his own shop or work out of a farm? Are there any directories that would have where they worked listed? This was in 1851. Nancy USA

Searching for marriage of JOHN & MARIA HOLMES Sedgley area around 1800-05, possibly at Coseley Old Meeting House and JOHN ELWELL born around 1805 from the same area. Yorkie

Actually Tracy, my own great grandmother left her husband and children in 1891. My great grandfather (her husband died of cancer the same year). This doesn't paint a good picture of my great grandmother and I am busy trolling through the census returns and records to try and prove that she actually died and the census enumerator made a mistake. Deep down I doubt this and the only answer I have is that she ran off with another fella. Yorkie

Hi Nettie, a sad story and it struck me when I was researching the family that most probably we will never really know what went wrong and the reasons why. I expect in those days the woman would have been labelled a bad lot but was she really. I reckon in some case they were very courageous to be able to make the move - or where they? Yorkie

And I can add that its an extremely interesting visit ...... I even came away with my own bag of flour and tomato plants! Well worth it! Jan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Ogden" <d.ogden@blueyonder.co.uk> To: <ENG-BLACK-COUNTRY-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2006 12:18 AM Subject: [B.C.] Mill Open-Day > Hi All, > Just to let those of you who live locally or are visiting the area > :- > The first 2006 open day for New Hall Mill will be between 10am & 4.00pm on > Sunday 14th of May. > The mill will be producing stoneground wholemeal flour from locally grown > bread wheat throughout the day. > The mill is off Wylde Green Road in Sutton Coldfield and has car > park,tearoom and toilets. > Come and see how flour was produced in Victorian times. > There is a very interesting website associated with the Mill, it's at :- > http://www.newhallmill.org.uk/ > > Plus for those of you who have an interest in Tolkein, Sarehole Mill over > at > Hall Green/Moseley is just about to open for the year. > > Dave 8-)) > Wednesbury > England > > List Admin: BC > > > > > ==== ENG-BLACK-COUNTRY Mailing List ==== > The Assistant List Admins are Jean Morgan and Jan Ross > (Couldn't do it without those two great ladies) > > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.4.1/307 - Release Date: 10/04/2006 > >

Hi Mason, To take it within your timeframe isn't too hard although nowadays it looks nothing at all as it did even ten years ago. Could do a better job with 1800 as a date though <G> Best to take a trip down it in @1840 from a pub called the Dartmouth Arms on the left and the Baptist Chapel on the right, with the junction of the new Turnpike (built by Telford) now known as the Holyhead Road and Dudley Street (which incidentally was also a turnpike, but much earlier than Telfords effort) facing you. Behind you on the rise would be High Bullen with Whimseys above the pits around the area and St. Bartholomews Church on the hill overlooking the whole town of Wednesbury (there is much, much more but this is very simplified). Start walking down Dudley Street and off in the distance would be/still is, Ocker Hill with St. Marks Church. To the right, would be the Packhorse pub and a few yards further on would be the Four Ways Tavern (St. James Street didn't exist back then) all mixed in with a small number of shops and houses. On the left are a terrace of houses fronting Dudley Street followed by a gap leading to Sparrows Field, not as nice as it sounds with pits dotted over it. There is now a crossroad, on the right is Portway Road (now simply Portway) and on the left is Potters Lane followed immediately by Fidoes Piece, again with its' associated pits. On the right following Portway Road (later to become known as Irish Town) is very little, no sign then of the Patent Shaft and Axeltree Company. Dudley Street ends at the Toll House and from there Lea Brook Road takes over up to Ocker Hill. From start to finish would take less than 5 minutes walking, and from the Toll House to Ocker Hill would take a further 5 mins. In a car these days, 2 mins for the whole lot from Holyhead Road to Ocker Hill. I must say that reading back, this is very simplified, but near enough for 1840 at this end of town. It was Telfords Turnpike (@1826 with the bridging of the Tame) that moved things slightly West of the centre towards this area. Dave 8-)) Wednesbury England List Admin: BC -----Original Message----- From: Mason Woodson [mailto:mhem@bellsouth.net] Sent: 12 April 2006 15:27 To: ENG-BLACK-COUNTRY-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [B.C.] What our ancestors did I had a GG Grandfather John Flynn who lived on Dudley Street in Wednesbury in 1858 who is listed on my Great Grandmother Ellen's Marriage Registration as being a "Inspector of Nuisance" a good article on this is "POLLUTED CITIES -THE DREAM AND THE REALITY compiled by Dee Finney Air Pollution before late Victorian times". I would like to know more about Dudley Street and Wednesbury in the time frame of 1837 to 1865. Mason mhem@bellsouth.net

Hi All, Just to let those of you who live locally or are visiting the area :- The first 2006 open day for New Hall Mill will be between 10am & 4.00pm on Sunday 14th of May. The mill will be producing stoneground wholemeal flour from locally grown bread wheat throughout the day. The mill is off Wylde Green Road in Sutton Coldfield and has car park,tearoom and toilets. Come and see how flour was produced in Victorian times. There is a very interesting website associated with the Mill, it's at :- http://www.newhallmill.org.uk/ Plus for those of you who have an interest in Tolkein, Sarehole Mill over at Hall Green/Moseley is just about to open for the year. Dave 8-)) Wednesbury England List Admin: BC

My fourth times Great Grandfather Charles James Halley, emigrated from the Black Country (loosley, born in Cheltenham, lived in Aston for a goodly while) to America in the 1870's He brought with him his family of four daughters and a son. He was listed on several census' both here and in England as a "Painter and Decorator".. As far as we know his father was also in this trade, sometimes they were listed as "Master Painters". Does any one know if there was a Guild of this sort of profession? And where I might find any records if one existed? His son also followed this profession. And apparently the gene for this is fairly strong as several others in the family have also been talented at this sort of thing at times getting their living from it! Including a few who spent their time here working for Louis Comfort Tiffany in the Queens NY fine art and glass factory. A few years ago I walked into an antique store in my tiny Upstate New York town and noticed a nicely hand painted plate. Upon turning it over I found my 3 times Great Grandmothers name on it! Amazing. They never lived- and no one else in the family has ever lived (that I know of!) --ANYWHERE near here! You just never know! And yes it is very interesting to hear where the people worked -factories or "works"-- but surely before there were such things most people had individual professions? What we might call "small business's " today? Would be interesting to hear of these people too! And let's not forget the women if we know what they might have done- if they had any time left over that is after the back breaking work of raising a family! Good idea for this months theme! judith in New York where the daffs have finally decided to bloom!

In 1916, my great grand mother ran away four times from the remote cottage in Herefordshire, where she lived in with her 8 children and often absent husband. On the fourth occasion, she sold the chickens and used the money to buy a train ticket to London where she had a sister who was in service and got a job house keeping. One night, she went out and got lost during a Zeppelin raid, so popped into a Police station for directions. She must have had a migraine as she commented that the pictures on the wall were moving. That comment kept in her a cell over Christmas and in Cane Hill mental Asylum for several months more until they tracked down my great grand father who didn't make things any better by telling them that she'd always been a bit unstable, temperamentally. So they moved her to St. Mary's Asylum, Burghill, Herefordshire, so she'd be chargeable to her own Parish. She was eventually released. As my mother grew up in an orphanage, we discovered all this from Asylum records, by accident, whilst researching my mother's aunt and uncle's time at St. Mary's. The above is a very short version of a VERY long story! Nettie

Slightly earlier I have a woman who married a local farmer in 1859, had don't you just love the fact that as we trawl the censuses and Pr's half the people weren't married, there was plenty of single mums, and there was so much "goings on" LOL and we think its a modern time thing LOL since time began more likely! Mellie How Come My Coat Of Arms Has Buckles At The Back?

Hi List, Is Tipton, Dudley, St. Paul, Staffordshire and Handsworth & Bloomfield, St. James, West Bromwich, Staffordshire near each other? Confused Nancy USA

If you are unable to read the whole passage, it might be worth writing to the British Library Newspaper Library to see if they have a better copy. The address is Colindale Avenue, LONDON, NW9 5HE or www.bl.uk A family member of mine wrote asking if they had a better picture from a clipping that she had and they were very helpful. Yvonne Mason Derbyshire -----Original Message----- From: cassy [mailto:cassyfranklin@blueyonder.co.uk] Sent: 11 April 2006 16:43 To: ENG-BLACK-COUNTRY-L@rootsweb.com Subject: NEWS PAPER ARTICLE OF MY AUNT ALICE BABY CAROLL ON HER DEATH AT LIVERPOOL Hi All This is the newspaper article of my Aunt Alice Liz has done her best to transcrible it , has it was in a poor condition in many parts Cassy Liverpool Echo newspaper dated 1963 " Tipperary " was first sung by a child One morning in 1912, the next door neighbour of a talented 10 year old singer was appearing in a juvenile music hall show locally called round and said "I have written a song that I think will suit you. How about trying it out in your act Allie?" The child then known as Baby Franklin - real name Alice- sang it in the drawing room, with the composer, Jack Judge, at the piano. And that evening for the first time ever in public, little Allie Franklin sang her neighbours new Irish style number, called "It's a long way to Tipperary " Now, with sadness I must tell you that this happy personality who first sang " Tipperary " has died in the Liverpool home for Invalid women, at the age of 62. For many Years, she had been Mrs. Allie Ireland, wife of my old backstage friend Charlie Ireland, of the Playhouse Theatre, and formerly manager of the Shakespeare Theatre in Liverpool. They lived at Bancroft Place, Crosby. Broken hearted Charlie told me to-day. "She had spent a life time in serving and helping other folk before she died. She expressed a wish to keep on helping in some way afterwards. At her desire, her body has gone to Liverpool University p----- through research to ---- other suffer in the future. Allie as we all knew her started her stage career as one of the late Sid Fields troupe of " Klno? Juveniles " ------ so well that she was given her own spot in the show. And that was why her neighbour in the Stafford ----------- --------- where she lived Jack Judge, thought of her when had completed his "Tipperary "and asked her to introduce it to the public. She sang it for 20 years Allie used to recall, with a smile, that the audience at the first performance didn't exactly go overboard for the number although they obviously like it. Not until World War One broke on us two years later, and our men were marching through the streets of France did the rhythmic beat of " Tipperary " and its easy to remember chorus start to warm the cockles of the nations heart. Charlie Ireland said to me " Allie sang it from 1912 right through to 1932, and everywhere she appeared the audiences would clamor for it. "When a tablet to Jack Judge, as a composer of the world greatest marching son, was unveiled by Jack Hylton years later, Allie and I were among the specially invited guests. "And, at the grand concert that followed the tablet being unveiled, she was once again asked to sing it." Allie Ireland was a charming cheerful woman, even through the hard years of her late life when illness overtook her. Right to the final curtain, she proved her --- of a great trooper. She will be missed - more especially perhaps by those of us who will never hear ______________________________ -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.4.1/310 - Release Date: 12/04/06

Slightly earlier I have a woman who married a local farmer in 1859, had three children, then left home with the servant of her brother in law. He was 10 years younger than her. They had a couple of children together and then went to Australia where she died in 1884. They always claimed to be married on the census, and when emigrating, but back in Yorkshire her deserted husband also put 'married' on the census. I often wonder if he ever knew what had become of her or if the three daughters she'd left behind ever heard from her again. In my own family I have a wife who 'vanished' after the 1861 census who I think I've identified working in Walsall under her maiden name while her husband is in the same town with wife number 2 who he didn't actually marry until just before her death in the early 1880s. Tracy ----- Original Message ----- From: <AYorkie19@aol.com> To: <ENG-BLACK-COUNTRY-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 9:37 AM Subject: [B.C.] re free thinking women > Has anyone else come across women of the late 1800's, in their family who > have suddenly 'upped sticks' and deserted their children and husband. I > know > women's sufferage came about at the end of the 1800's and I am wondering > if > this influenced women who were not happy at home bringing up children etc > to > leave them and move on. > > I have one case in my own family and as yet I am not sure if she went off > with another man or just vanished. In another case that I have been > trying to > sort for a friend, the woman in question married in 1881 at the age of > 20. > It looks as if she had about 7 children in 10 years before she vanished. > The > husband is recorded in 1891 as being a Pawnbroker Manager and married but > there are no children or wife with him. I have found a set of 10 > children > living with a couple of the same surname in Gloucestershire but 7 of them > have the > surname of the runnaway wife as a second name. > > It looks to me as if a brother and his wife took the children on. > > I have also found entries in the 1891 census for a woman of the same > surname > as the runnaway wife working as a laundress in a school about 40 miles > away. > Then in 1901 she is living even further away as a railway restaurant > worker. > > Any ideas? Were women suddenly taking their lives into their hands or > what? > > Yorkie > > > ==== ENG-BLACK-COUNTRY Mailing List ==== > Wherever possible (except for personal messages) > please post replies to the list.Other people can learn from them! > >

One of my Family Annie Marie Green married Edwin Heath @ Oldswinford in 1870. On the 1881 Census she is resident in Cherry Orchard Rowley Regis and is described as Head of Household but not a widow. Meanwhile Husband Edwin Heath is in Oldham Lancashire. In 1885 she emigrated to Australia with a baby under 1 year old. Two days after arriving she married James Priest a man ten years her junior. James Priest came from Wolverhampton. They may have met because Annie had family there.. By 1891 James Priest had mysteriously disappeared and Annie was in the process of marrying Husband no 3. Back in England Edwin Priest had remaried and started a new family in Lancashire. I suspect this may be an early form of un official divorce! If you cut contact with your spouse and emigrated to Australia. After 7 years with out contact you could be legally declared dead and both parties would be free to remarry! Andrew Pardoe

Oh well I guess the city of Hereford can breathe a sigh of relief then? LOL Now I'll have to stay home and do some work Wolfie...................the quiet one -----Original Message----- From: Mellie [mailto:chouikh2006@btinternet.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 1:37 PM To: Wolfie; ENG-BLACK-COUNTRY-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [B.C.] Hereford Family History Fair Hey Mellie, d'ya fancy this one? If ya do, pick me up on the way. I'm free on Saturday as my babbies are playing Friday night. Wolfie...................the quiet one subtle as a brick ay ya muvva! LOL Would love to say eys, but I am on call from now until next week, I cn'at stray that far!!!!! I'm pushin me luck comin over to you next week!! Mellie How Come My Coat Of Arms Has Buckles At The Back? -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.4.1/309 - Release Date: 11/04/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.4.1/309 - Release Date: 11/04/2006