Hi listers Here's a tip if you are looking for Oldbury town/Rounds Green on the all new, all singing, all dancing 1841census on Ancestry. It's hiding at Shropshire-Halesowen- Districts 1A, 2A, 3A, 4A. Where it gives you the option Halesowen or Oldbury - choose Oldbury and this seems to give you Langley/Tatbank etc. Hope this saves folks the precious time that I've just wasted! All the best Patsy

Hi, Just floating the surname BODIN to find anyone else interested. Regards, Bill.

Hi Ron, If you get on to English Literature you will lose me completely. I think my final School Report said something like " He has no inclination to understand the finer points of the English Language". Regards Ted ----- Original Message ----- From: <snape@cix.co.uk> To: <ENG-BLACK-COUNTRY-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2006 8:55 AM Subject: RE: [B.C.] stepchildren etc. > And what are we to make of the relationship in this quotation: > > No sooner was her answer dispatched, than Mrs. Dashwood indulged herself > in > the pleasure of announcing to her son-in-law and his wife that she was > provided with a house, and should incommode them no longer than till every > thing were ready for her inhabiting it. They heard her with surprise. Mrs. > John Dashwood said nothing; but her husband civilly hoped that she would > not be settled far from Norland. She had great satisfaction in replying > that she was going into Devonshire.--Edward turned hastily towards her, on > hearing this, and, in a voice of surprise and concern, which required no > explanation to her, repeated, "Devonshire! Are you, indeed, going there? > So > far from hence! And to what part of it?" She explained the situation. It > was within four miles northward of Exeter. > > Jane Austen, Sense and Sensibility > > What was Mrs Dashwood's relationship to her son-in-law's wife? > > Ron S > > > Original Message: > ----------------- > From: snape@cix.co.uk snape@cix.co.uk > Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 02:38:02 -0400 > To: ENG-BLACK-COUNTRY-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: RE: [B.C.] stepchildren etc. > > >> but it is easy to understand the heads of household's > reasoning. . . . Many heads of household just listed the step children > under their own surname and entered "son" or "daughter." > > My understanding of census-taking practice in earlier times is that the > census "forms" (actually books) were not filled in by the households > themselves but were filled in "live" by the census takers on the doorstep. > The terminology would be that of the census taker, although he would, of > course, be dependent for information upon the person standing on the > doorstep (not necessarily the head of household) for information. > > I have come across census entries where one had the strong impression that > the information supplied, particularly with regard to ages, was actually > guess-work (maybe from a neigbour?). > > Ron S > > Original Message: > ----------------- > From: chris edwards05@blueyonder.co.uk > Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 17:56:17 +0100 > To: ENG-BLACK-COUNTRY-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: [B.C.] stepchildren etc. > > > Hi Ted, Polly and everybody, > Our ancestors when referring to a some relatives in everyday conversation > would have very probably described the relationship rather than use a > single > word definition. For example (just as we do today) they might say "the > wife's brother" or "my sister's son" or "my daughter's husband." The > difference being that today if called upon we can use the correct > terminology to define each of our relatives. > Most working class people rarely had cause to write and many signed their > own name with a cross and the only time they had to go through the > inconvenience of coming up with unfamiliar words would be every ten years > for the census. > Like everyone else, I have found that stepchildren were often entered on > the > census as son-in-law or daughter-in-law. This of course was an inaccurate > use of the term but it is easy to understand the heads of household's > reasoning. After all if they knew that the wife's father was the father > in-law and the wife's brother was a brother-in-law then surely the wife's > son was a son-in-law. Many heads of household just listed the step > children > under their own surname and entered "son" or "daughter." > And the uncertainty in applying the correct term did not stop at > stepchildren. In my own tree I have a genuine daughter-in-law simply > listed > as "son's wife" and the grandchildren listed as "son's daughter" or "son's > son." > In the case of another extended family, the son's children are listed > correctly as grandson/granddaughter but in the same household the > daughter's > children have been listed as nephew and niece. > My apologies if the general content of this email arrives twice to the > list. > I did post a very similar message this morning but it seems to have > disappeared. > Best wishes, > Chris > > > > ==== ENG-BLACK-COUNTRY Mailing List ==== > Wherever possible (except for personal messages) > please post replies to the list.Other people can learn from them! > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > mail2web - Check your email from the web at > http://mail2web.com/ . > > > > > ==== ENG-BLACK-COUNTRY Mailing List ==== > The B.C. List Admin is Dave Ogden :- > d.ogden@blueyonder.co.uk > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > mail2web - Check your email from the web at > http://mail2web.com/ . > > > > > ==== ENG-BLACK-COUNTRY Mailing List ==== > The B.C. List Admin is Dave Ogden :- > d.ogden@blueyonder.co.uk > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.4.5/322 - Release Date: 22/04/2006 >

The deluxe Ancestry membership gives you access to Ancestry's worldwide databases for example the complete US census collection, Canadian census etc plus other records for around the world. If you only need UK records stick to the cheaper option for the UK, which I personally find invaluable in tracking down all those branchlettes and twiglettes especially now that they have the full range of census records for England and Wales 1841 to 1901. You can get the volume and page numbers for the GRO BMD index free of charge by using the beta version currently available to all rather than using their version of FreeBMD. They usually offer a free 14 day trial to everyone who wants it. Why not try that but remember to follow the instructions carefully if you do not wish to continue with membership following the trial period. Regards Linda Staffs UK Researching: Cook(e) Plant Mason Keys Pearsall and variants Broster Rastall Turner Smith Miller Morgan Simmons Baker ----- Original Message ----- From: <PhllRb@aol.com> To: <ENG-BLACK-COUNTRY-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2006 8:38 AM Subject: [B.C.] Ancestry.co.uk > Hi, > As a general question, what does the "de lux" membership of Ancestry.co.uk > offer over the free-views available? Does it just give the register index > of > Volume & Page or are there other details available? I am thinking about > subscribing but just wondered what the advantages were. > Rob. of Portsmouth >

Mrs Dashwood was presumably her son-in-law's wife's mother. David in Brierley Hill

Hi Ron, seeing that in the earliest census the majority of the population were illiterate then the census enumerator woudl certainly have filled in the forms for them. Also these enumerators had only to be able to write reasonably well to be called literate then we can have no doubt that there would be errors or spelling, misunderstanding of dialects etc. Yorkie

And what are we to make of the relationship in this quotation: No sooner was her answer dispatched, than Mrs. Dashwood indulged herself in the pleasure of announcing to her son-in-law and his wife that she was provided with a house, and should incommode them no longer than till every thing were ready for her inhabiting it. They heard her with surprise. Mrs. John Dashwood said nothing; but her husband civilly hoped that she would not be settled far from Norland. She had great satisfaction in replying that she was going into Devonshire.--Edward turned hastily towards her, on hearing this, and, in a voice of surprise and concern, which required no explanation to her, repeated, "Devonshire! Are you, indeed, going there? So far from hence! And to what part of it?" She explained the situation. It was within four miles northward of Exeter. Jane Austen, Sense and Sensibility What was Mrs Dashwood's relationship to her son-in-law's wife? Ron S Original Message: ----------------- From: snape@cix.co.uk snape@cix.co.uk Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 02:38:02 -0400 To: ENG-BLACK-COUNTRY-L@rootsweb.com Subject: RE: [B.C.] stepchildren etc. > but it is easy to understand the heads of household's reasoning. . . . Many heads of household just listed the step children under their own surname and entered "son" or "daughter." My understanding of census-taking practice in earlier times is that the census "forms" (actually books) were not filled in by the households themselves but were filled in "live" by the census takers on the doorstep. The terminology would be that of the census taker, although he would, of course, be dependent for information upon the person standing on the doorstep (not necessarily the head of household) for information. I have come across census entries where one had the strong impression that the information supplied, particularly with regard to ages, was actually guess-work (maybe from a neigbour?). Ron S Original Message: ----------------- From: chris edwards05@blueyonder.co.uk Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 17:56:17 +0100 To: ENG-BLACK-COUNTRY-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [B.C.] stepchildren etc. Hi Ted, Polly and everybody, Our ancestors when referring to a some relatives in everyday conversation would have very probably described the relationship rather than use a single word definition. For example (just as we do today) they might say "the wife's brother" or "my sister's son" or "my daughter's husband." The difference being that today if called upon we can use the correct terminology to define each of our relatives. Most working class people rarely had cause to write and many signed their own name with a cross and the only time they had to go through the inconvenience of coming up with unfamiliar words would be every ten years for the census. Like everyone else, I have found that stepchildren were often entered on the census as son-in-law or daughter-in-law. This of course was an inaccurate use of the term but it is easy to understand the heads of household's reasoning. After all if they knew that the wife's father was the father in-law and the wife's brother was a brother-in-law then surely the wife's son was a son-in-law. Many heads of household just listed the step children under their own surname and entered "son" or "daughter." And the uncertainty in applying the correct term did not stop at stepchildren. In my own tree I have a genuine daughter-in-law simply listed as "son's wife" and the grandchildren listed as "son's daughter" or "son's son." In the case of another extended family, the son's children are listed correctly as grandson/granddaughter but in the same household the daughter's children have been listed as nephew and niece. My apologies if the general content of this email arrives twice to the list. I did post a very similar message this morning but it seems to have disappeared. Best wishes, Chris ==== ENG-BLACK-COUNTRY Mailing List ==== Wherever possible (except for personal messages) please post replies to the list.Other people can learn from them! -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . ==== ENG-BLACK-COUNTRY Mailing List ==== The B.C. List Admin is Dave Ogden :- d.ogden@blueyonder.co.uk -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ .

Hi, As a general question, what does the "de lux" membership of Ancestry.co.uk offer over the free-views available? Does it just give the register index of Volume & Page or are there other details available? I am thinking about subscribing but just wondered what the advantages were. Rob. of Portsmouth

> but it is easy to understand the heads of household's reasoning. . . . Many heads of household just listed the step children under their own surname and entered "son" or "daughter." My understanding of census-taking practice in earlier times is that the census "forms" (actually books) were not filled in by the households themselves but were filled in "live" by the census takers on the doorstep. The terminology would be that of the census taker, although he would, of course, be dependent for information upon the person standing on the doorstep (not necessarily the head of household) for information. I have come across census entries where one had the strong impression that the information supplied, particularly with regard to ages, was actually guess-work (maybe from a neigbour?). Ron S Original Message: ----------------- From: chris edwards05@blueyonder.co.uk Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 17:56:17 +0100 To: ENG-BLACK-COUNTRY-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [B.C.] stepchildren etc. Hi Ted, Polly and everybody, Our ancestors when referring to a some relatives in everyday conversation would have very probably described the relationship rather than use a single word definition. For example (just as we do today) they might say "the wife's brother" or "my sister's son" or "my daughter's husband." The difference being that today if called upon we can use the correct terminology to define each of our relatives. Most working class people rarely had cause to write and many signed their own name with a cross and the only time they had to go through the inconvenience of coming up with unfamiliar words would be every ten years for the census. Like everyone else, I have found that stepchildren were often entered on the census as son-in-law or daughter-in-law. This of course was an inaccurate use of the term but it is easy to understand the heads of household's reasoning. After all if they knew that the wife's father was the father in-law and the wife's brother was a brother-in-law then surely the wife's son was a son-in-law. Many heads of household just listed the step children under their own surname and entered "son" or "daughter." And the uncertainty in applying the correct term did not stop at stepchildren. In my own tree I have a genuine daughter-in-law simply listed as "son's wife" and the grandchildren listed as "son's daughter" or "son's son." In the case of another extended family, the son's children are listed correctly as grandson/granddaughter but in the same household the daughter's children have been listed as nephew and niece. My apologies if the general content of this email arrives twice to the list. I did post a very similar message this morning but it seems to have disappeared. Best wishes, Chris ==== ENG-BLACK-COUNTRY Mailing List ==== Wherever possible (except for personal messages) please post replies to the list.Other people can learn from them! -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ .

>Anyone know why we adopted him? Not I. There is an authoritative line of thought that Saint George did not actually exist. (There is also a line of thought that the dragon did not exist either!) Ron S Original Message: ----------------- From: Martin Adams martin@adams3606.fsnet.co.uk Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 20:04:44 +0100 To: ENG-BLACK-COUNTRY-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [B.C.] Happy Saint George's Day Just a pity St George wasn't English.....I'm sure there must have been a more suitable candidate?? Anyone know why we adopted him? ----- Original Message ----- From: "EDWARD SOUTHWICK" <ted.southwick@btinternet.com> To: <ENG-BLACK-COUNTRY-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2006 4:31 PM Subject: [B.C.] Happy Saint George's Day > As we celebrate this St George's Day, think not what the politicians say > but of those young men who have fought and died for the freedom of others. > Rupert Brook summed it up in his poem "The soldier." > If I should die, think only this of me: > That there's some corner of a foreign field > That is forever England. > > > ==== ENG-BLACK-COUNTRY Mailing List ==== > The B.C. List Admin is Dave Ogden :- > d.ogden@blueyonder.co.uk > > > ==== ENG-BLACK-COUNTRY Mailing List ==== Wherever possible (except for personal messages) please post replies to the list.Other people can learn from them! -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ .

Is there anyone out there with a good local historical knowledge of Old Swinford who could help me please? What I would like to ascertain is whether there has ever been a sizable Jewish community in the town. By sizable I don't mean hundreds necessarily but at least enough for there perhaps to be some form of small synagogue. If anyone knows or can point me in the right direction, I would be most grateful. Regards Linda Staffs UK Researching: Cook(e) Plant Mason Keys Pearsall and variants Broster Rastall Turner Smith Miller Morgan Simmons Baker

Just a pity St George wasn't English.....I'm sure there must have been a more suitable candidate?? Anyone know why we adopted him? ----- Original Message ----- From: "EDWARD SOUTHWICK" <ted.southwick@btinternet.com> To: <ENG-BLACK-COUNTRY-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2006 4:31 PM Subject: [B.C.] Happy Saint George's Day > As we celebrate this St George's Day, think not what the politicians say > but of those young men who have fought and died for the freedom of others. > Rupert Brook summed it up in his poem "The soldier." > If I should die, think only this of me: > That there's some corner of a foreign field > That is forever England. > > > ==== ENG-BLACK-COUNTRY Mailing List ==== > The B.C. List Admin is Dave Ogden :- > d.ogden@blueyonder.co.uk > > >

The archivist at Wolverhampton told me (after I found one of my lot in Littles Lane on the 1891 census) that it was a very crowded area with many not well off Irish people. It may of course have been more salubrious in 1871. Valerie Valerie Leonard --------------------------------- 24 FIFA World Cup tickets to be won with Yahoo! Mail. Learn more

Hi Ted, Polly and everybody, Our ancestors when referring to a some relatives in everyday conversation would have very probably described the relationship rather than use a single word definition. For example (just as we do today) they might say "the wife's brother" or "my sister's son" or "my daughter's husband." The difference being that today if called upon we can use the correct terminology to define each of our relatives. Most working class people rarely had cause to write and many signed their own name with a cross and the only time they had to go through the inconvenience of coming up with unfamiliar words would be every ten years for the census. Like everyone else, I have found that stepchildren were often entered on the census as son-in-law or daughter-in-law. This of course was an inaccurate use of the term but it is easy to understand the heads of household's reasoning. After all if they knew that the wife's father was the father in-law and the wife's brother was a brother-in-law then surely the wife's son was a son-in-law. Many heads of household just listed the step children under their own surname and entered "son" or "daughter." And the uncertainty in applying the correct term did not stop at stepchildren. In my own tree I have a genuine daughter-in-law simply listed as "son's wife" and the grandchildren listed as "son's daughter" or "son's son." In the case of another extended family, the son's children are listed correctly as grandson/granddaughter but in the same household the daughter's children have been listed as nephew and niece. My apologies if the general content of this email arrives twice to the list. I did post a very similar message this morning but it seems to have disappeared. Best wishes, Chris

Hi Ted Yes quite! However in the past "son-in-law" was also used for as a term to describe a "step-son" as this case amply demonstrates, you don't need to take my word for it! Polly ----- Original Message ----- From: "EDWARD SOUTHWICK" <ted.southwick@btinternet.com> To: <ENG-BLACK-COUNTRY-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, April 24, 2006 4:10 PM Subject: Re: [B.C.] Collins Hello Polly, A single son in law, as far as I am concerned, is a contradiction in terms. As I pointed out in the last sentence of my message to you this morning, if I had a son in law, which I have not, he would be the husband of my daughter. God help him. Ted ==== ENG-BLACK-COUNTRY Mailing List ==== The B.C. List Admin is Dave Ogden :- d.ogden@blueyonder.co.uk

Hi All I wonder if anyone would be good enough to look up on the census' the following for me: Elizabeth Benton b. Abt. 1842 If she can be found on the 1841 census then I have her parents name. I believe she is from Cannock. marr. abt. 1865 Joseph Bould b. 3.12.1838 Cannock When I had the free 14 days subscription to ancestry.com I struggled to find either of these two once they married. I think they are from the Cannock area. I can trace Joseph Bould until he marries then I can continue to trace his mother Mary Bould nee Sellman who ran the Black Horse pub on Mill Street Cannock for many many years. Her family also ran Sellman's Funeral Parlour which I believe is still in Cannock. Any help will be appreciated. Kind regards Jaquie

Hello Polly, A single son in law, as far as I am concerned, is a contradiction in terms. As I pointed out in the last sentence of my message to you this morning, if I had a son in law, which I have not, he would be the husband of my daughter. God help him. Ted

Hi David Well done - exactly right! And how can a single son-in-law be married to anyone, Ted?! Polly ----- Original Message ----- From: <DvWoodall@aol.com> To: <ted.southwick@btinternet.com>; <ianandanne@optusnet.com.au>; <polly@rowberry.org>; <ENG-BLACK-COUNTRY-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, April 24, 2006 7:53 AM Subject: Re: [B.C.] Collins Hello Ted, Polly, Anne, If, as Polly says, the Brothers Martin are stepsons, rather than sons-in-law, of John Collins, then the marriage of John Collins to Mary Ann Martin in 1846 would appear to be what is being sought. The marriage was registered at West Bromwich Register Office in the quarter ending 31st December 1846. The GRO reference is Vol 18, Page 78. David in Brierley Hill

Hi All, I know there are a few COLLINS family researchers out there and I'm hoping that one of you can help me with this family. Found on the 1851 census- Birmingham Rd, West Bromwich John COLLINS, head, married, 73, nailor, West Bromwich Mary Ann COLLINS, wife, married, 53, West Bromwich James MARTIN, son-in-law, single, 32, general labourer, West Bromwich William MARTIN, son-in-law, single, 32, engineer, West Bromwich David MARTIN, son-in-law, single, 19, nail castor, West Bromwich John James COLLINS, grandson, single, 4, at home, West Bromwich. I think that the David MARTIN listed is my 3G Grandfather, but I am trying to work out the relationship to the COLLINS family. On the 1841 census David is listed with a Mary, James & William MARTIN, of course with no relationships listed I'm just guessing that they may have all been siblings with the possiblity that Mary may have been the mother. So does anyone own this family and if you do, do you know the maiden name of the wife? Thanks Anne Sweetman Brisbane, Australia

Hi Polly, I reckon it's all a plot to thwart us, I have sons in law and stepsons on the same entry and I can't sort them out. Doreen