I have your George Trueman in the Baggott Clan, believe it or not. George Trueman, born 1857, Birmingham married Amelia Emily Wrencher, born Sep Qtr 1861, Birmingham - married Mar Qtr 1864, Birmingham <<Did they marry age 3 & 6????>>

Hi I apologize. The marriage took place Jun 1885, Birmingham, Vol 6d Page 9. Vera Tagieff Montreal, Quebec, Canada vtagieff@hotmail.com vtagieff@sympatico.ca (for large files only, please) ----Original Message Follows---- From: "Pete Lamberg" <linpete@lamberg25.fsnet.co.uk> To: ENG-BLACK-COUNTRY-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [B.C.] TRUEMAN / ORGAN Date: Sun, 14 May 2006 08:42:51 +0100 I have your George Trueman in the Baggott Clan, believe it or not. George Trueman, born 1857, Birmingham married Amelia Emily Wrencher, born Sep Qtr 1861, Birmingham - married Mar Qtr 1864, Birmingham <<Did they marry age 3 & 6????>> ==== ENG-BLACK-COUNTRY Mailing List ==== Wherever possible (except for personal messages) please post replies to the list.Other people can learn from them! _________________________________________________________________ Designer Mail isn't just fun to send, it's fun to receive. Use special stationery, fonts and colors. http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines Start enjoying all the benefits of MSN® Premium right now and get the first two months FREE*.

Hi Steve As houses were built and the postal service improved, street numbering was often changed until it was finally stabalised towards the end of the 1800s. So they may not have moved at all, their house may have gone by a different number. Regards Polly Rubery you are right! my great granma didnt move house but the street name changed and so did the numbering system LOL Mellie How Come My Coat Of Arms Has Buckles At The Back?

Hi Steve As houses were built and the postal service improved, street numbering was often changed until it was finally stabalised towards the end of the 1800s. So they may not have moved at all, their house may have gone by a different number. Regards Polly Rubery List admin: MIDMARCH-L@rootsweb.com A genealogy and local history list covering the Counties of Brecon, Hereford, Monmouth, Shropshire, Stafford and Worcester. ENG-HEREFORD@rootsweb.com A genealogy and local history list covering the County of Hereford ROWBERRY-L@rootsweb.com ROWBERRY/RUBERY ONS - GOONS #278 rowberry@one-name.org http://www.rowberry.org Webmaster for the Herefordshire Family History Society http://www.rootsweb.com/~ukhfhs/index.html ----- Original Message ----- From: <StephenHales2@aol.com> To: <ENG-BLACK-COUNTRY-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, May 13, 2006 6:29 PM Subject: [B.C.] Re A Little Advice Ron thanks for that.Would this mean they were living in a couple of shacks thrown together on a cobbled pub yard? steve Another question for the list while I`m here,my family,over a period of time lived at four different addresses but in the same street,Was this a common practice?If so any ideas why hey might have moved so many times? ==== ENG-BLACK-COUNTRY Mailing List ==== Wherever possible (except for personal messages) please post replies to the list.Other people can learn from them!

In a message dated 5/13/2006 2:15:01 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, chouikh2006@btinternet.com writes: >>Another question for the list while I`m here,my family,over a period of >>time lived at four different addresses but in the same street,Was this a common practice?If so any ideas why hey might have moved so many times?<< My relatives also lived in different places in the same area, but I am not sure if this is really true. It may be that the same place was described differently. I haven't been able to find all of the addresses on maps. Any thoughts? Here they are: 182 Park Street, Aston, Birmingham, Warwickshire (1861) Glydon's Building, Steward Street, Birmingham, Warwickshire (1871) Victoria Road, Aston, Birmingham, Warwickshire (Sept 1876) Springhill, Lady Wood, Birmingham, Warwickshire (Oct 1876) 21 Steward St. Ct., 2nd House, Birmingham, Warwickshire (1881) Then they moved to Rastrick, Yorkshire. Meanwhile, my American great grandfather lived in 14 places over ten years, between 1921 and 1931, all within a three block area in Illinois. The only reason I even know this, since this did not show up on the census obviously, (and my grandmother had already married and left home) was that his second wife kept a journal with all the addresses and her granddaughter gave it to me. The fact that she made such a list suggests to me that it was somewhat unusual. When I mentioned this all to my mother, she laughed and suggested that maybe they couldn't pay the rent! Kathryne

>>Another question for the list while I`m here,my family,over a period of >>time lived at four different addresses but in the same street,Was this a common practice?If so any ideas why hey might have moved so many times?<< a bigger house? more rooms or more room in "THE" room. Mellie How Come My Coat Of Arms Has Buckles At The Back?

Sorry listers, I couldn't resist this one... Extract from Trades and Professions in Wolverhampton in 1802 http://www.wolverhamptonhistory.org.uk/work/women/19th/trades_1802 Excellent site by the way, take a look. All the best Ian -- Ian Beach Bunbury, Western Australia ian@sedgleymanor.com Website "The Ancient Manor of Sedgley" in Staffordshire at http://www.sedgleymanor.com Listowner ENG-STS-SEDGLEY at http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/intl/ENG/ENG-STS-SEDGLEY.html Researching: Sedgley, Staffordshire : ADDIS(S), BEACH, CASWELL, GUTT(E)RIDGE, HOPKINS, FLAVELL, MILLARD & TURLEY Darlaston, Staffordshire : FOSTER, ORME & YATES Shropshire : ADDIS(S), BEACH/BACHE, CASWELL

Hi Steve, You wrote: "Would this mean they were living in a couple of shacks thrown together on a cobbled pub yard?" Not necessarily. My GEORGE family owned the Burton Inn for at least three generations in Tipton. It was a handsome two story brick building with space for two shops on ground level (a pub of the same name and a grocery and tea business). On the upper floor were accommodations and living quarters for two families. In the back court area, called the "Burton Villa" were more family rentals. My great great grandmother, Mary GEORGE was still living there for the 1901 census which gives the sizes of the units. The largest was six rooms. The rest varied from three to four rooms. This was a good size for living quarters at the time. The residents were iron workers with a boat steerer and a coal loader thrown in. So surely they were modest residences but not a given that they were shacks. "Another question for the list while I`m here,my family,over a period of time lived at four different addresses but in the same street,Was this a common practice?If so any ideas why hey might have moved so many times?" Quite common, most people were renters. Their family sizes increased or decreased. Their fortunes rose and fell. They had relatively few belongings. Few people could read or write, so there were no advertisements to check. People just watched what was going on in the neighborhood. If there was a better deal across the street They went for it. Then again, in some cases, the city just re-numbered the street. Mae Canaga California, USA (The Southwestern Part of the Black Country)

Ron thanks for that.Would this mean they were living in a couple of shacks thrown together on a cobbled pub yard? steve Another question for the list while I`m here,my family,over a period of time lived at four different addresses but in the same street,Was this a common practice?If so any ideas why hey might have moved so many times?

>>>Sorry listers, I couldn't resist this one... Extract from Trades and Professions in Wolverhampton in 1802<<< they still work not far fron Bilston Street LOL but there are more of them now LOL and I think its ironic that it was a listed trade back then and treated as one of the scurges of the world now!!!!!!! Mellie How Come My Coat Of Arms Has Buckles At The Back?

Hi All Just in case it did not get to the list has my mail was bouncing and I got chucked off the list has well has Dave (which I thought was really funny him being the list owner) I just wanted to say thankyou to everyone for there help with me looking for undertakers you where all great never knew there was that many in Oldbury Thanks again everyone Cassy

Samantha: The IGI has John LAVENDER baptised in Old Swinford on 13 October 1793, son of John and Mary. There's no other John anywhere in the UK in the IGI for 5 years either side. Do you not think this is your John? I notice also on the IGI that John and Mary LAVENDER had a son James baptised at Park Lane Presbyterian, Cradley in 1798. So they may have been nonconformists, which could account for your difficulty in finding Elijah. Good luck Paul Prescott ----- Original Message ----- From: "Samantha Wiggin" <samantha.wiggin@virgin.net> To: <ENG-BLACK-COUNTRY-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, May 13, 2006 10:06 AM Subject: [B.C.] FW: Elijah Lavender- a brick wall. > Hello list, > > > > I have only just joined the list and am helping that you may be able to > help > me locate the parents of Elijah Lavender. He was born in 1808 (this is > taken from census info, I can't find his baptism) in Old Swinford. He > married Sarah Dudley in 1833 in St Thomas Dudley. They had 8 children > John, > Meshack, James, Elijah, Mary Elizabeth, Elizabeth, William and Mariah. > > I have found the family on the censuses but I can find no info on who > Elijah's parents may be. In one of the censuses Elijah is living with his > brother John Lavender, born 1793. Unfortunately John Lavender is a common > name in the Old Swinford area, so this has not helped either. > > I would be really grateful for any info anyone could give me. > > My other surname interests are Gauden, Jordan, Lawley, Gough, Dudley, > Chance, Bache, Wiggin. > > > > Many Thanks Samantha Wiggin. > > > > ==== ENG-BLACK-COUNTRY Mailing List ==== > The Assistant List Admins are Jean Morgan and Jan Ross > (Couldn't do it without those two great ladies) > >

Hello list, I have only just joined the list and am helping that you may be able to help me locate the parents of Elijah Lavender. He was born in 1808 (this is taken from census info, I can't find his baptism) in Old Swinford. He married Sarah Dudley in 1833 in St Thomas Dudley. They had 8 children John, Meshack, James, Elijah, Mary Elizabeth, Elizabeth, William and Mariah. I have found the family on the censuses but I can find no info on who Elijah's parents may be. In one of the censuses Elijah is living with his brother John Lavender, born 1793. Unfortunately John Lavender is a common name in the Old Swinford area, so this has not helped either. I would be really grateful for any info anyone could give me. My other surname interests are Gauden, Jordan, Lawley, Gough, Dudley, Chance, Bache, Wiggin. Many Thanks Samantha Wiggin.

Hi Mellie, Hope you are ok. Yes, it is strange about the change of attitudes, and also, of words in English, like for instance, the word GAY has a totally differeng meaning from what it had years ago. In fact, ladies of the night were classed as gay, but not in the modern sense. Funny old world. Regards to all, Vic Kent, UK

In a message dated 5/13/2006 4:12:28 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ian@sedgleymanor.com writes: www.wolverhamptonhistory.org.uk/work/women/19th/trades_1802 Thanks, Ian. Yes, got a good giggle out of that one. But of course I immediately tried to look up 87 Bilston St and got nowhere with Streetmap. Somehow I have lost the other map searching website I usually use, and the name is escaping me. Suggestions? Too bad there was no 1801 census to tell us who was actually living there. Or could it have been an "office"? :) Cheers, Lois

Hi Penny I have your George Trueman in the Baggott Clan, believe it or not. George Trueman, born 1857, Birmingham married Amelia Emily Wrencher, born Sep Qtr 1861, Birmingham - married Mar Qtr 1864, Birmingham Amelia Emily Wrencher is the daughter of: Joseph Forrest Wrencher, born Dec 28, 1832, Birmingham, c. Dec 1, 1834 married: Mary Ann Baggott, c. Jul 8, 1832, Birmingham, d. Mar 1902, King's Norton - married Dec Qtr 1864 Children are: Amelia Emily Wrencher, born Sep Qtr 1861, Aston Alice Elizabeth Wrencher (always known as Elizabeth Alice), born Mar Qtr 1870, Aston Joseph Henry Wrencher, c. Mar 18, 1872, Birmingham Stephen Wrencher, 1874 Charles Wrencher, 1877 Contact me off list and I can give more data. Vera Tagieff Montreal, Quebec, Canada vtagieff@hotmail.com vtagieff@sympatico.ca (for large files only, please) ----Original Message Follows---- From: FOUNTAlNPen@aol.com To: ENG-BLACK-COUNTRY-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [B.C.] TRUEMAN / ORGAN Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 13:56:26 EDT Dear Listers, Hoping for some help! I am trying to trace our TRUEMAN ancestors. Unfortunately there are 2 possible families (both of which I have got on with researching), but until I know the first name of the WIFE of great grandfather George TRUEMAN, (both lines), I won't know which family is the correct one. I could send for the marriage certificate of George TRUEMAN & Clara A. ORGAN, 1914,(grandparents) which would at least give me George's age....(aprox.27 or 30 depending on the line)...both fathers' names were, again, George. In the end, I probably will have to send for it. Unfortunately I have already spent a small fortune on certificates, so I thought a plea to the list might be helpful first? Was 'our' George's mother Emily, or Esther? Has anyone already done research on either of the two families below: - Family 1 : - 1901 (31st March). RG13/2858; ED34; Folio 36; Page 29; WKS; Aston; Deritend; (Holy Trinity). Sch.185, No.108 Trinity Street: George TRUEMAN, H, Wdr, 42, White Smith, worker, b. WKS, Birmingham. [b. c1859] Lizzy TRUEMAN, Dau, S, 15, Manfctr's Warehouse Woman, worker, b. WKS, Birmingham. [b. c1886] George TRUEMAN, Son, S, 14, Brass ?Filer (Work), worker, b. WKS, Birmingham. [b. c1887] [27 in 1914] Alfred TRUEMAN, Son, 8, b. WKS, Birmingham. [b. c1893] Joseph TRUEMAN, Son, 7, b. WKS, Birmingham. [b. c1894] Harriet TRUEMAN, Mother, Wid, 72, b. WKS, Birmingham. [b. c1829] Henry TRUEMAN, Brother, M, 45, Iron Forger, b. WKS, Birmingham. [b. c1856] Harriet TRUEMAN, Sister, Wid, 34, Brush hand, b. WKS, Birmingham. [b. c1867] Annie TRUEMAN, Dau, 10, b. WKS, Birmingham. [b. c1891] & 1891 Census (5th April). RG12/2407; ED33; Folio 13; Page 21; WKS; Aston; Deritend; (Holy Trinity); Bordesley. Sch.126, No.100 Upper Trinity Street: George TRUEMAN, H, M, 34, Whitesmith, employed, b. WKS, Birmingham. Emily TRUEMAN, Wife, M, 30, b. WKS, Birmingham. [b. c1861] [Died before 31st March, 1901] Emily Elizabeth TRUEMAN, Dau, 5, Scholar, b. WKS, Birmingham. [b. c1886] George TRUEMAN, Son, 4, b. WKS, Birmingham. [b. c1887] Rosie TRUEMAN, Dau, 2, b. WKS, Birmingham. [b. c1889] OR Family 2: - 1901 (31st March). RG13/2867; ED5; Folio 106; Page 28; WKS; Aston; Duddeston; (St. James). Sch.156, No.112 Windsor Street: George TRUEMAN, H, M, 44, General Labourer, worker, b. WOR, Bromsgrove. [b. c1857] Esther TRUEMAN, Wife, M, 40, b. STS, Dudley. [b. c1861] Emma TRUEMAN, Dau, S, 18, Fancy Worker, worker, b. WKS, Birmingham. [b. c1883] George TRUEMAN, Son, S, 17, St------ S----- [over written by presumptuous 'checker' with : B something Carter], worker, b. WKS, Birmingham. [b. c1884] [30 in 1914] Beatrice TRUEMAN, Dau, 13, b. WKS, Birmingham. [b. c1888] Roland TRUEMAN, Son, 7, b. WKS, Birmingham. [b. c1894] & 1891 Census (5th April) RG12/2416; ED6; Folio 114; Page 23; WKS; Aston; Duddeston; (St. James); Bordesley. Sch.129, No.112 Windsor Street: [3] George TRUEMAN, H, M, 33, Brass Caster, employed, b. WOR, Bromsgrove. [b. c1858] Esther TRUEMAN, Wife, M, 30, b. WOR, Dudley. [b. c1861] Emma E. TRUEMAN, Dau, [looks like 11(checker's mark drawn over it) 'should be' 8], Scholar, b. WKS, Birmingham. George H. TRUEMAN, Son, 7, Scholar, b. WKS, Birmingham. [b. c1884] Beatrice T. TRUEMAN, Dau, 3, b. WKS, Birmingham. Sorry going on so long! Best wishes, Penny ==== ENG-BLACK-COUNTRY Mailing List ==== The Assistant List Admins are Jean Morgan and Jan Ross (Couldn't do it without those two great ladies)

Dear Listers, Hoping for some help! I am trying to trace our TRUEMAN ancestors. Unfortunately there are 2 possible families (both of which I have got on with researching), but until I know the first name of the WIFE of great grandfather George TRUEMAN, (both lines), I won't know which family is the correct one. I could send for the marriage certificate of George TRUEMAN & Clara A. ORGAN, 1914,(grandparents) which would at least give me George's age....(aprox.27 or 30 depending on the line)...both fathers' names were, again, George. In the end, I probably will have to send for it. Unfortunately I have already spent a small fortune on certificates, so I thought a plea to the list might be helpful first? Was 'our' George's mother Emily, or Esther? Has anyone already done research on either of the two families below: - Family 1 : - 1901 (31st March). RG13/2858; ED34; Folio 36; Page 29; WKS; Aston; Deritend; (Holy Trinity). Sch.185, No.108 Trinity Street: George TRUEMAN, H, Wdr, 42, White Smith, worker, b. WKS, Birmingham. [b. c1859] Lizzy TRUEMAN, Dau, S, 15, Manfctr's Warehouse Woman, worker, b. WKS, Birmingham. [b. c1886] George TRUEMAN, Son, S, 14, Brass ?Filer (Work), worker, b. WKS, Birmingham. [b. c1887] [27 in 1914] Alfred TRUEMAN, Son, 8, b. WKS, Birmingham. [b. c1893] Joseph TRUEMAN, Son, 7, b. WKS, Birmingham. [b. c1894] Harriet TRUEMAN, Mother, Wid, 72, b. WKS, Birmingham. [b. c1829] Henry TRUEMAN, Brother, M, 45, Iron Forger, b. WKS, Birmingham. [b. c1856] Harriet TRUEMAN, Sister, Wid, 34, Brush hand, b. WKS, Birmingham. [b. c1867] Annie TRUEMAN, Dau, 10, b. WKS, Birmingham. [b. c1891] & 1891 Census (5th April). RG12/2407; ED33; Folio 13; Page 21; WKS; Aston; Deritend; (Holy Trinity); Bordesley. Sch.126, No.100 Upper Trinity Street: George TRUEMAN, H, M, 34, Whitesmith, employed, b. WKS, Birmingham. Emily TRUEMAN, Wife, M, 30, b. WKS, Birmingham. [b. c1861] [Died before 31st March, 1901] Emily Elizabeth TRUEMAN, Dau, 5, Scholar, b. WKS, Birmingham. [b. c1886] George TRUEMAN, Son, 4, b. WKS, Birmingham. [b. c1887] Rosie TRUEMAN, Dau, 2, b. WKS, Birmingham. [b. c1889] OR Family 2: - 1901 (31st March). RG13/2867; ED5; Folio 106; Page 28; WKS; Aston; Duddeston; (St. James). Sch.156, No.112 Windsor Street: George TRUEMAN, H, M, 44, General Labourer, worker, b. WOR, Bromsgrove. [b. c1857] Esther TRUEMAN, Wife, M, 40, b. STS, Dudley. [b. c1861] Emma TRUEMAN, Dau, S, 18, Fancy Worker, worker, b. WKS, Birmingham. [b. c1883] George TRUEMAN, Son, S, 17, St------ S----- [over written by presumptuous 'checker' with : B something Carter], worker, b. WKS, Birmingham. [b. c1884] [30 in 1914] Beatrice TRUEMAN, Dau, 13, b. WKS, Birmingham. [b. c1888] Roland TRUEMAN, Son, 7, b. WKS, Birmingham. [b. c1894] & 1891 Census (5th April) RG12/2416; ED6; Folio 114; Page 23; WKS; Aston; Duddeston; (St. James); Bordesley. Sch.129, No.112 Windsor Street: [3] George TRUEMAN, H, M, 33, Brass Caster, employed, b. WOR, Bromsgrove. [b. c1858] Esther TRUEMAN, Wife, M, 30, b. WOR, Dudley. [b. c1861] Emma E. TRUEMAN, Dau, [looks like 11(checker's mark drawn over it) 'should be' 8], Scholar, b. WKS, Birmingham. George H. TRUEMAN, Son, 7, Scholar, b. WKS, Birmingham. [b. c1884] Beatrice T. TRUEMAN, Dau, 3, b. WKS, Birmingham. Sorry going on so long! Best wishes, Penny

It sounds to me like a courtyard behind a pub. I have seen quite a few of these (I thnk in the BC - although it might have been Liverpool). Ron S Original Message: ----------------- From: StephenHales2@aol.com Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 09:12:54 EDT To: ENG-BLACK-COUNTRY-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [B.C.] A little advice please. Some of my folks are listed in 1861 as living in 13 Vine Inn Wolverhampton would this be a street or an Inn. steve ==== ENG-BLACK-COUNTRY Mailing List ==== Wherever possible (except for personal messages) please post replies to the list.Other people can learn from them! -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ .

Some of my folks are listed in 1861 as living in 13 Vine Inn Wolverhampton would this be a street or an Inn. steve

>>I think everyone is wishing everyone else happy birthday off list.<<< its always quiet holiday times lol Mellie How Come My Coat Of Arms Has Buckles At The Back?