Cassy Not sure if this is him, but could be possible, depends on exactly where the hospital was. Death recorded in full indexes as follows: John Francis , Qrt Sep 1967, age 67 Seisdon 98 307 Seisdon was rural district (in Staffs) in 1967 just west of Stourbridge, came down as far as Kinver and I guess abutted to Stourbridge . Google maps gives Prestwood west of the Wolverhampton Road so could well be in Seisdon My grandfather died in Kinver in 1966 and it took me some time to before I realised that the entry for Seidson was the one I wanted! Regards Peter Wharton -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of cassy Sent: 06 August 2009 22:42 To: [email protected] Subject: [Black Country] Place of Death Hi All I am trying to trace my granddads death cert John Franklin born 1900 I know he died between 1966-67 at Preswood Hospital near Stourbridge , I have looked at the West Midland Site and he is not on there and Liz has tried to look but we just cant seen to find him Does anyone know if Preswood comes under Stourbridge and Dudley area now Cheers Cassy Assistant Admin Black Country Potteries, and Wolverhampton Lists

Hi All I am trying to trace my granddads death cert John Franklin born 1900 I know he died between 1966-67 at Preswood Hospital near Stourbridge , I have looked at the West Midland Site and he is not on there and Liz has tried to look but we just cant seen to find him Does anyone know if Preswood comes under Stourbridge and Dudley area now Cheers Cassy Assistant Admin Black Country Potteries, and Wolverhampton Lists

Hi Lois, I'm cribbing here from my wife, as she's the knowledgable one on this subject. Penal servitude (PS) was imprisonment with compulsory hard labour for those found guilty of a felony (serious criminal offence) such as physical assault, murder, rape, fraud, grand theft etc. These prisoners were incarcerated in the government run convict prisons, e.g. Pentonville for males, or Millbank for females. PS was introduced in 1853 as a substitute punishment for those criminals who would otherwise have been sentenced to transportation for less than 14 years. The minimum sentence was for three years PS, increased in 1864 to five years for a first offence and seven years for subsequent offences. Imprisonment without hard labour was for those found guilty of lesser crimes, such as petty theft, who were usually held in the local prisons (run by county justices until 1877, when all prisons came under government control). Hope this clarifies Carl ----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2009 6:42 AM Subject: [Black Country] Penal Servitude and Imprisonment > > Could someone please explain to me the difference between penal > servitude and imprisonment? Was it that the former had to do hard > labor and the latter could just rest in their cells? > Confused, Lois > ------------------------------------- > The only List that specifically covers the whole of the Black Country. Run > by Black Country folk who were born and still live in the area. > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Carl, thank you, and your wife, for a very clear explanation of penal servitude as opposed to imprisonment. That was very interesting. As you may have seen me post before, I have been trying to find out more about the crime(s) of my grandmother's uncle, Thomas Baggott, b.1844. Maggie from our list recently informed me that the Criminal Registers are now available on Ancestry, so I quickly checked out my Thomas. There were four possible records for him, all larceny. They may not all be him. The first would have been when he was 9 years old, and the sentence was 6 calendar months of penal servitude. I think that must not be my Thomas. The next was when my Thomas would have been 35 (1879), and it notes that he was previously convicted. He was sentenced to 6 calendar months of penal servitude that time also. Still not sure that is my Thomas. The third record was in 1883, with Thomas Baggott being convicted of "larceny of fixtures" and sentenced to 6 calendar months of penal servitude. However, in the meantime, my Thomas Baggott, definitely him, was in Stafford Prison on the 1881 census. That doesn't fit with the Criminal Register reports. Finally, and definitely my Thomas Baggott, he was charged with larceny in 1885 but died in Stafford Prison on Mar 19. His trial record for Oct. 20, 1885, notes, "Prisoner died before commencement of Sessions". So I now have several questions. 1. Are there records of the trial proceedings or any other avenue of finding more detail on the crime and especially the specific identity of the criminal? Perhaps a court transcript would give hints as to his residence, age, etc.? 2. Did it take such a long time to get to trial that he could have been in Stafford Prison in 1881 awaiting this trial to take place in 1883? Would a six month sentence be from the time of sentencing or would it take time served into account? 3. What is meant by fixtures? My T. Baggott's mother's family were brass founders. Could he have been stealing scrap metal for them? I would be most grateful for any enlightenment anyone can give me. Appreciatively, Lois -----Original Message----- From: Carl Higgs <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Wed, Aug 5, 2009 5:29 am Subject: Re: [Black Country] Penal Servitude and Imprisonment Hi Lois, I'm cribbing here from my wife, as she's the knowledgable one on this subject. Penal servitude (PS) was imprisonment with compulsory hard labour for those found guilty of a felony (serious criminal offence) such as physical assault, murder, rape, fraud, grand theft etc. These prisoners were incarcerated in the government run convict prisons, e.g. Pentonville for males, or Millbank for females. PS was introduced in 1853 as a substitute punishment for those criminals who would otherwise have been sentenced to transportation for less than 14 years. The minimum sentence was for three years PS, increased in 1864 to five years for a first offence and seven years for subsequent offences. Imprisonment without hard labour was for those found guilty of lesser crimes, such as petty theft, who were usually held in the local prisons (run by county justices until 1877, when all prisons came under government control). Hope this clarifies Carl ----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2009 6:42 AM Subject: [Black Country] Penal Servitude and Imprisonment > > Could someone please explain to me the difference between penal > servitude and imprisonment? Was it that the former had to do hard > labor and the latter could just rest in their cells? > Confused, Lois > ------------------------------------- > The only List that specifically covers the whole of the Black Country. Run > by Black Country folk who were born and still live in the area. > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------------- The only List that specifically covers the whole of the Black Country. Run by Black Country folk who were born and still live in the area. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Could someone please explain to me the difference between penal servitude and imprisonment? Was it that the former had to do hard labor and the latter could just rest in their cells? Confused, Lois

Hi   It will be available in Birmingham:   http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/news/stories/337.htm?WT.hp=nf-37818   Michael Harris/Hickman

I will be out of the office starting 31/07/2009 and will not return until 12/08/2009. I will answer all emails when I return

> So it was necessary to take people's land away from them because > they couldn't be trusted to use it properly themselves? Not quite. The primary reason for the enclosures (reason rather than effect) was to control the movement of livestock in order to pursue a policy of selective breeding and improvement of the stock. This could not be done where all animals had access to common grazing. In any event, the peasants (not a term typically used of the English agricultural smallholders) did not own the land outright; they enjoyed only the rights to graze. The enclosures COULD have been organised on the basis of, say, agricultural co-operatives, rather than on confiscation, but, as far as I am aware, there was no initiative for this among the peasantry in this country at the time. > Stalin himself couldn't have put it better. The giant agricultural co-operatives of the Stalinist era do not seem to have been generally successful (although, perhaps, they might have been here, had someone promoted the idea). Ron S

Thanks for that quick response Paul. It confirms William and Mary Jane's deaths in 1921 and 1918 and their burials at Merridale Cemetery. Ian ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Prescott" <[email protected]> To: "Ian Rhodes" <[email protected]>; <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2009 5:09 PM Subject: Re: [Black Country] Sharrocks/Sharrocks and Binnie > Ian: > > You might not be aware that there a lot of Wolverhampton sources, > including all pre-1837 parish registers, available online at > http://www.wolverhamptonhistory.org.uk/resources/familyhistory. > > Happy hunting > > Paul > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ian Rhodes" <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2009 4:53 PM > Subject: [Black Country] Sharrocks/Sharrocks and Binnie > > >>I hope I have the right list and that it covers Wolverhampton. Most of my >>family are from the north west, but a number settled in the midlands in >>the 1890s and early 1900s. I have lost track of them beyond then and I'm >>hoping that the names might mean something to the people on this list: >> >> William Sharrocks/Shorrocks (born Dukinfield, Cheshire) and his wife Mary >> Jane (born Bridgwater, Somerset) were at Francis Street in 1901 and 1911. >> He was an agent for the Boilermakers Society. They had seven children and >> I believe five of them married in Wolverhampton: >> >> Sarah Jane (1876) >> William Henry (1878) >> Maria (1881) >> May (1885) >> John (1890) >> >> Also in Wolverhampton in 1901 was William's niece, Sarah Sharrocks >> (1880), who was woking as a domestic servant in Merridale. >> >> Finally, James Binnie (1855 Scotland) moved to West Bromwich after his >> wife died in 1902. He married Ann Cox, widow of Joseph Peters, in 1906 >> and I think he died there in 1919. >> >> Any help appreciated. >> >> Ian Rhodes >> Stockport >> ------------------------------------- >> The only List that specifically covers the whole of the Black Country. >> Run by Black Country folk who were born and still live in the area. >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > >

Ian: You might not be aware that there a lot of Wolverhampton sources, including all pre-1837 parish registers, available online at http://www.wolverhamptonhistory.org.uk/resources/familyhistory. Happy hunting Paul ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ian Rhodes" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2009 4:53 PM Subject: [Black Country] Sharrocks/Sharrocks and Binnie >I hope I have the right list and that it covers Wolverhampton. Most of my >family are from the north west, but a number settled in the midlands in the >1890s and early 1900s. I have lost track of them beyond then and I'm hoping >that the names might mean something to the people on this list: > > William Sharrocks/Shorrocks (born Dukinfield, Cheshire) and his wife Mary > Jane (born Bridgwater, Somerset) were at Francis Street in 1901 and 1911. > He was an agent for the Boilermakers Society. They had seven children and > I believe five of them married in Wolverhampton: > > Sarah Jane (1876) > William Henry (1878) > Maria (1881) > May (1885) > John (1890) > > Also in Wolverhampton in 1901 was William's niece, Sarah Sharrocks (1880), > who was woking as a domestic servant in Merridale. > > Finally, James Binnie (1855 Scotland) moved to West Bromwich after his > wife died in 1902. He married Ann Cox, widow of Joseph Peters, in 1906 and > I think he died there in 1919. > > Any help appreciated. > > Ian Rhodes > Stockport > ------------------------------------- > The only List that specifically covers the whole of the Black Country. Run > by Black Country folk who were born and still live in the area. > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

I hope I have the right list and that it covers Wolverhampton. Most of my family are from the north west, but a number settled in the midlands in the 1890s and early 1900s. I have lost track of them beyond then and I'm hoping that the names might mean something to the people on this list: William Sharrocks/Shorrocks (born Dukinfield, Cheshire) and his wife Mary Jane (born Bridgwater, Somerset) were at Francis Street in 1901 and 1911. He was an agent for the Boilermakers Society. They had seven children and I believe five of them married in Wolverhampton: Sarah Jane (1876) William Henry (1878) Maria (1881) May (1885) John (1890) Also in Wolverhampton in 1901 was William's niece, Sarah Sharrocks (1880), who was woking as a domestic servant in Merridale. Finally, James Binnie (1855 Scotland) moved to West Bromwich after his wife died in 1902. He married Ann Cox, widow of Joseph Peters, in 1906 and I think he died there in 1919. Any help appreciated. Ian Rhodes Stockport

Roger: > Now, (here is the point) without > much bigger units of production, that is the enclosure of large parcels of > land, the system could not have been introduced on a cottage scale, > cottagers simply would not have grown their carrots any differently to > grandad. Starvation would have increased especially in the industrial > centres. The Enclosures Acts enabled the country to feed itself as its > population grew. So it was necessary to take people's land away from them because they couldn't be trusted to use it properly themselves? Stalin himself couldn't have put it better. Regards Paul

May I place the issues of the Enclosures Acts and their social impact in a historical perspective? I take NO issue at all with the proposition that the punishment meeted out in those years was by our standards harsh and oppressive. However the following should be taken into account. I make no comment about crime then and today. Firstly: The country's population was swelling before Enclosures and there were increasingly pockets of starvation due to "bad seasons" more and more often. By great good fortune and big landowner in Norfolk, Townsend had rationally discovered that crop rotation reduced disease in crops and hugely increased yield. ( The Norfolk System) Now, (here is the point) without much bigger units of production, that is the enclosure of large parcels of land, the system could not have been introduced on a cottage scale, cottagers simply would not have grown their carrots any differently to grandad. Starvation would have increased especially in the industrial centres. The Enclosures Acts enabled the country to feed itself as its population grew. This is not to say that this was the reason for enclosures, but it is the case that it was the consequence. Secondly: The wealth and ultimate betterment of the industrial population depended on supplies of raw materials being reliable and cheap. The Black Country was especially exposed to this need. The Enclosures enables larger units of production to be assembled for coal, marl, limestone and iron ore and the history of the Black Country is essentially all about this. All was not well however. The Wards failed miserably to use their land ownership to build communal big scale pumping and draining of the deep mines, and much coal was lost due to flooding in the deeper seams. They did bring in the Cornish engineers and "gins" to help but on a scale that was inadequate. ( my forebears were ladder, hole in the ground, shovel and donkey men at Birds Meadow Pensnett... 2 chaps below and 3 above...not big time by any means, on a franchise from the Wards following the Enclosure of Pensnett Chase.) Also we should remember that the Truck Act and banning of payments by token and the abolishment of the Butty system were driven in the teeth of "London" opposition by a Wealthy Black Country Land Owner, Lord Lyttleton of Hagley, this ultimately transformed the work/ reward balance of the nation let alone the Black Country, although he had to have two bites at the parliamentary cherry to do it. Cheers Roger Thompson -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ron Snape Sent: 29 July 2009 11:38 To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [Black Country] The causes of crime > we have far more crime today Are you quite sure about that? Ron S ------------------------------------- The only List that specifically covers the whole of the Black Country. Run by Black Country folk who were born and still live in the area. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

> we have far more crime today Are you quite sure about that? Ron S

Hi Maggie, I have a copy of 'Black Country Criminal Ancesters 1787-1868'. There is an entry as follows: "Worcester (Assizes) - reported in Berrows Worcester Journal, 17th March 1808 - Francis Wooldridge, for uttering a counterfeit two pound Bank of England note at Dudley. Sentenced to death. Francis Wooldridge was not executed, having had a reprieve during His Majesty's pleasure. Samuel Bowater, for uttering a two pound Bank of England note at Bewdley. 14 years transportation." Any help? While the topic of prisons is current, you might be interested in this site: http://www.fremantleprison.com. The site has a searchable database of prisoners transported there in the 1800's. I couldn't get the quick link to work tonight, but you can access it by clicking on 'History', then 'convict database' on the left hand side of the page. (I found a couple of entries which may be 'mine'!) Regards Gill

Hi David You only have to look in the papers or TV to see the level of crime nowadays , Looking back our ancestors only really stole for food , and if caught, look at the harsh sentences they received , many where whipped , sent to Australia for years , given hard labour , and for sheep or horse stealing they could be hanged , and woe betide them if they poached , We have far more crime today, than they did then , and ifs far more serious , murder was very rare , now days it hardly makes the papers , I think some of these yobs nowadays should have a taste of what happened to people years ago it would make them think twice Cheers Cassy Assistant Admin Black Country Potteries, and Wolverhampton Lists ----- Original Message ----- From: "DavidTP" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Monday, July 27, 2009 12:38 PM Subject: [Black Country] The causes of crime > Those of us who discover ancestors who may have dwelt in the confines of > penal establishments might like to take comfort from the reasons why they > committed the crimes which sent them there. A brief study of the workings > of the enclosures of the commons in the 18th - 19th centuries show that > the majority of people below the rank of landowning aristocrat were > subject in varying degrees to the harsh withdrawal of their means of > subsistence. They were often starving, despite which, the collecting of a > few twigs from the landord's hedgerow was considered to be theft and they > were frequently convicted of robbery for that and similar "offences". > I wonder how the people of todays society would fare in such > circumstances. > > Dave Pearsall - Dorridge > ------------------------------------- > The only List that specifically covers the whole of the Black Country. Run > by Black Country folk who were born and still live in the area. > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.31/2264 - Release Date: 07/26/09 11:07:00

Those of us who discover ancestors who may have dwelt in the confines of penal establishments might like to take comfort from the reasons why they committed the crimes which sent them there. A brief study of the workings of the enclosures of the commons in the 18th - 19th centuries show that the majority of people below the rank of landowning aristocrat were subject in varying degrees to the harsh withdrawal of their means of subsistence. They were often starving, despite which, the collecting of a few twigs from the landord's hedgerow was considered to be theft and they were frequently convicted of robbery for that and similar "offences". I wonder how the people of todays society would fare in such circumstances. Dave Pearsall - Dorridge

DavidTP wrote: > Those of us who discover ancestors who may have dwelt in the confines of penal establishments might like to take comfort from the reasons why they committed the crimes which sent them there. A brief study of the workings of the enclosures of the commons in the 18th - 19th centuries show that the majority of people below the rank of landowning aristocrat were subject in varying degrees to the harsh withdrawal of their means of subsistence. They were often starving, despite which, the collecting of a few twigs from the landord's hedgerow was considered to be theft and they were frequently convicted of robbery for that and similar "offences". > I wonder how the people of todays society would fare in such circumstances. > > Dave Pearsall - Dorridge Good work Dave. Thanks! We need to understand and remember. Similar conditions of existance were penned by JOSEPH ARCH of Barford, Warwickshire, in his writing: "Village Life in the 1830s and 1840s" from his auto-biography. http://www.pacefamilyhistory.info/uk/josepharch.htm JOSEPH founded the National Agricultural Workers Union about 1873 at Leamington. Being a Methodist preacher, he turned his skill of eloquence towards the aid of the Agricultural Labourers' situation. JOSEPH, a 'mystery' relative of my grandmother ANNIE ARCH of 16 Blakenall Lane, Bloxwich. JOSEPH's mother was a PACE. The connection is obscure. Any help welcome. + HANNAH SHARRARD nee PACE 1783-1845 HANNAH's maiden name was PACE - she and her father JOSEPH PACE were employed at Warrick Castle - married 1st - Mr. SHARRARD a footman at the castle - after HANNAH's 1st husband died about 1816 - HANNAH married JOHN ARCH 12 Oct 1818 Witnesses - ELIZABETH RYMILL and JNO COOK, Clerk. - Pamela Horn's book - HANNAH died 8 Sept 1845 and was buried 11 Sept 1845 at BARFORD. Gord Pace, Ontario http://www.pacefamilyhistory.info/uk/barford.htm

I want to thank Gill, Paul, Maggie, Pete and Linda for their help with my quest to learn the reason for Thomas Baggott's imprisonment at Stafford Prison in 1871 and 1873. Maggie had notes showing a crime for a Thomas Baggott earlier, when he would have been 18. Can't be sure it's him, but if so, it would make him a repeat consumer of the prison system. Thanks very much for everyone's help. Warm Regards, Lois

Hi Lois Sorry - looked through the file - with different spellings but couldn't find your Thomas. Had a quick look through and the Assizes don't seem to go past about 1838. Wonderful piece of work though. My husbands 4 x G Grandad was hanged at Stafford in 1808 for counterfieting - I couldn't find him or his accomplices either. Maggie ======================================== Message Received: Jul 24 2009, 05:34 PM From: [email protected] To: [email protected], [email protected] Cc: Subject: Re: [Black Country] york prison site Gill, thank you very much for the links. Unfortunately, the Calendar of Prisoners for Staffordshire is in a file form my computer refuses to open. If anyone can access that file for me, I am looking for Thomas Baggott, born 1844. He died in Stafford Prison on 19 March 1885. He appears in the prison in 1871, but I don't know if he had a continuous stay or was a repeat "guest". I'd love to know what he did and if he was a frequent prisoner or had one major offense. I have his death certificate. He is listed as a coal miner. He died of congestion of the lungs. He was single. Hoping for Help, Lois -----Original Message----- From: Bucki To: [email protected] Sent: Fri, Jul 24, 2009 4:45 am Subject: [Black Country] york prison site Hi Lois, have you seen this site? http://uk-transcriptions.accessgenealogy.com/ROMASTER.xls( hope the link works) It gives a huge amount of information on the calendar of prisoners at Stafford jail. if this doesn't work try http://uk-transcriptions.accessgenealogy.com/index.html then select 'Staffordshire', and 'Staffs calender of Prisoners'. regards Gill ------------------------------------- The only List that specifically covers the whole of the Black Country. Run by Black Country folk who were born and still live in the area. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------------- The only List that specifically covers the whole of the Black Country. Run by Black Country folk who were born and still live in the area. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message http://thesaltfamily.tribalpages.com/ www.familytrails.net Researching : SALT, BARKLAM/BARTLAM, LOWE, JONES, RILEY, DEAN, SAUNDERS, BURBRIDGE, BURNS, BROWN, FOSTER, HUMPHRIES, STACKHOUSE, SCANLON, SHIRLEY, WEAVER, BENNETT