What a coincidence! Only this morning I was looking at the two volume's of DWNN's Pedigree's in Cardiff's Central Library. I can now go back a few more generations from Gruffudd ap Nicholas should anyone be interested? His dad obviously,was Nicholas,ap Philip born about 1367 of Y crug,Llandeilo Fawr.His mum was Jonet,daughter of Gruffudd ap Llen Voythis. Nicholas was the son of Philip ap Elidir Ddu & Gwladys[daughter of Daffyd Vras/Fras[?]esq Philip the son of Elidir ddu born about 1270. Hi wife was Cisyll or Elsbeth. I didn't write down the previous lines,but suffice to say,there was a 3 x great,grandfather of Elidir Ddu,who was Vrien,King of Gwyr and Reged in Scotland. All the above what was in DWNN's so I don't know if its true or not? In that case,Don't shoot the messenger,'eh? Cheers Graham[not Robert.] -- From:- Graham Williams.of Canton,Cardiff. Glam;FHS;#551. "Genealogy",Where Progress is made going Backwards."