Robert, Nearly everyone with Dyfed Ancestry, who can trace his or her ancestry back to 1600 can connect somewhere to Gruffydd ap Nicholas of Dinefwr, and then to the Welsh Princes (providing you accept the accuracy of the Pedigrees produced by Lewys Dwnn and his fore-runners. The population in the middle ages was minute, and all the descendants of Tribal Patriarchs in Dyfed connect to each other in several ways. The further afield you go geographically speaking, the lesser the number of later connections, but they all trace back at some point to the Welsh Princes, either directly or through marriage. I have concentrated in the main on South Cardiganshire, North Pembrokeshire and neighbouring Carmarthenshire Parishes. An usefull tool, has been the Surveys of Iscoed Uwch Hirwen and Gwynionydd Is Cerdyn made in 1651. (Transcript in Ceredigion Vol. IV No. 4 1963) . The majority of those who paid Chief Rents, and therefore owned the Land within the areas in question (which included a substantial area of South Cardiganshire) can be identified in Lewys Dwnn or Extant Deeds and Wills. Most are connected either through Ancestry or Marriage, and also connect to the Welsh Princes. What is also significant, in my opinion, is that they all held land to which the "overlordship" was ascribed in various deeds and documents to those same Welsh Princes with whom they claim a connection, and in whose gift, grants of land in the area would have been. I would suggest, that the evidence of those owning land in the mid 17th Century, in the same general area as ascribed to various Scions of the House of Deheubarth (Descendants of Rhys ap Tewdwr), is confirmation of the accuracy of the Pedigrees. An often overlooked Primary Source for those who can get back far enough, are the various Elegies and Eulogies to various individuals, which date from the early 1400's onwards. (Primary as they were contemporary productions. Where there are references to both Paternal and Maternal Line in these "poems", which corroborate later pedigrees They need to be deciphered, which requires the ability to read Welsh (Medieval) and also a knowledge of Heraldry, as the Ancestry is often by reference to a particular "shield" or "motif". For a contemporary reader or more accurately listener (as they were meant to be heard, rather than read) they would understand the references to "Brain - Crows" (House of Dinefwr), "Baedd - Boar", and the various "Eryr - Eagles" etc. These coded references to ancestry are additional to the direct references, and all are confirmed by the Pedigrees. My conclusion is, that from Lewys Dwnn (1600) for about 7 generations (1400) the Pedigrees of Dwnn are in the main accurate. (Any errors that have crept in are probably in the transcription, rather than the original work). Most if not all (who can trace back to 1600) in Dyfed are related or connected in some degree. With such an incestuous population we should all be idiots. The "Royal Family" , Royal by Consent rather than any Divine Right in my opinion, probably if entered would win the Olympic Gold Medal for incestuosness. Their only saving grace, might be the "Queen Mother's" ancestry, who by some documented accounts was the daughter of a Servant of Welsh Extraction. If anyone is interested I will post the links to this information. Achwr ======================================== Message Received: Aug 02 2012, 04:46 PMl From: "robert williams" To: [email protected] Cc: Subject: [Dyfed] GETHIN of Tenby. The many descendants of the Merry Monarch[King Charles II]include the late Princess Diana. She was descended from King Charles via three of his Mistresses. So she had batted three times from him. I forgot to mention the missing link from the FRANKLIN’s to my GETHIN’s. This was the CRADOCK family of Long Ash,Bishopston Parish in Gower. My Jenkin FRANKLIN,Under Sheriff for Glamorgan in 1541, was the great,great,grandson of Gruffudd ap Nicholas who died at the battle or Mortimers Cross on the 1st;of February 1461. He is not only my ancestor,but according to a website I came upon quite recently,Also he is the 15 x great,grandfather of our Prime Minister “Call me Dave”.So Dave and me are related although very distantly. But hey! Everyone is related to everyone else it seems? Cheers Graham in Canton,Cardiff. ================================ Dyfed list http://home.clara.net/daibevan/DyfedML.html ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ACHWR

Dear Achwr, Major Francis Jones called them "the tribe of cousins" and that's certainly a true statement.....as I delved back I found good ol' Gruffudd ap Nicholas half a dozen times in my own ancestry. He certainly adds colour ..and crafty cunning and half a dozen other not so admirable traits. Who says we aren't idiots....I just love it when he turns up!! Maybe I would feel differently if he was back just a generation or two. Usually the families appear to wait a couple of generations before marrying back into the same line, but there are instances ofclusters of intermarriages referred to in some of the Major's works where the mind boggles. I have also encountered more instances than I would consider normal, where Welsh couples were childless, and I wondered if this had anything to do with being of the same gene pool. Perhaps their children were not full term or stillborn and therefore not recorded. Also wanted to ask about "Servant"......I have found in some Wills the people referred to are actually family members or connections.....and this seemed to be when the person had no direct descendants on whom to pass their property, and that "Servant"/minor relative person appears to be being trained in the husbandry of the land and was eventually bequeathed the property. Of course, I realise most servants actually were just that! Bettye Kirkwood, Australia. ----- Original Message ----- From: "yr achwr" <[email protected]> To: "robert williams" <[email protected]>; <[email protected]> Sent: Friday, August 03, 2012 10:00 AM Subject: Re: [Dyfed] GETHIN of Tenby. > Robert, > Nearly everyone with Dyfed Ancestry, who can trace his or her ancestry > back to 1600 can connect somewhere to Gruffydd ap Nicholas of Dinefwr, and > then to the Welsh Princes (providing you accept the accuracy of the > Pedigrees produced by Lewys Dwnn and his fore-runners. > The population in the middle ages was minute, and all the descendants of > Tribal Patriarchs in Dyfed connect to each other in several ways. The > further afield you go geographically speaking, the lesser the number of > later connections, but they all trace back at some point to the Welsh > Princes, either directly or through marriage. > I have concentrated in the main on South Cardiganshire, North > Pembrokeshire and neighbouring Carmarthenshire Parishes. > An usefull tool, has been the Surveys of Iscoed Uwch Hirwen and Gwynionydd > Is Cerdyn made in 1651. (Transcript in Ceredigion Vol. IV No. 4 1963) . > The majority of those who paid Chief Rents, and therefore owned the Land > within the areas in question (which included a substantial area of South > Cardiganshire) can be identified in Lewys Dwnn or Extant Deeds and Wills. > Most are connected either through Ancestry or Marriage, and also connect > to the Welsh Princes. > What is also significant, in my opinion, is that they all held land to > which the "overlordship" was ascribed in various deeds and documents to > those same Welsh Princes with whom they claim a connection, and in whose > gift, grants of land in the area would have been. > I would suggest, that the evidence of those owning land in the mid 17th > Century, in the same general area as ascribed to various Scions of the > House of Deheubarth (Descendants of Rhys ap Tewdwr), is confirmation of > the accuracy of the Pedigrees. > An often overlooked Primary Source for those who can get back far enough, > are the various Elegies and Eulogies to various individuals, which date > from the early 1400's onwards. (Primary as they were contemporary > productions. Where there are references to both Paternal and Maternal Line > in these "poems", which corroborate later pedigrees > They need to be deciphered, which requires the ability to read Welsh > (Medieval) and also a knowledge of Heraldry, as the Ancestry is often by > reference to a particular "shield" or "motif". > For a contemporary reader or more accurately listener (as they were meant > to be heard, rather than read) they would understand the references to > "Brain - Crows" (House of Dinefwr), "Baedd - Boar", and the various > "Eryr - Eagles" etc. These coded references to ancestry are additional to > the direct references, and all are confirmed by the Pedigrees. > My conclusion is, that from Lewys Dwnn (1600) for about 7 generations > (1400) the Pedigrees of Dwnn are in the main accurate. (Any errors that > have crept in are probably in the transcription, rather than the original > work). > Most if not all (who can trace back to 1600) in Dyfed are related or > connected in some degree. > With such an incestuous population we should all be idiots. > The "Royal Family" , Royal by Consent rather than any Divine Right in my > opinion, probably if entered would win the Olympic Gold Medal for > incestuosness. Their only saving grace, might be the "Queen Mother's" > ancestry, who by some documented accounts was the daughter of a Servant of > Welsh Extraction. > If anyone is interested I will post the links to this information. > Achwr > ======================================== > Message Received: Aug 02 2012, 04:46 PMl > From: "robert williams" > To: [email protected] > Cc: > Subject: [Dyfed] GETHIN of Tenby. > > The many descendants of the Merry Monarch[King Charles II]include the late > Princess Diana. She was descended from King Charles via three of his > Mistresses. So she had batted three times from him. I forgot to mention > the missing link from the FRANKLIN’s to my GETHIN’s. This was the CRADOCK > family of Long Ash,Bishopston Parish in Gower. My Jenkin FRANKLIN,Under > Sheriff for Glamorgan in 1541, was the great,great,grandson of Gruffudd ap > Nicholas who died at the battle or Mortimers Cross on the 1st;of February > 1461. He is not only my ancestor,but according to a website I came upon > quite recently,Also he is the 15 x great,grandfather of our Prime Minister > “Call me Dave”.So Dave and me are related although very distantly. But > hey! Everyone is related to everyone else it seems? Cheers Graham in > Canton,Cardiff. ================================ Dyfed list > http://home.clara.net/daibevan/DyfedML.html ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ACHWR > > ================================ > Dyfed list http://home.clara.net/daibevan/DyfedML.html > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message