Hi List, I am wondering if anyone is knowledgeable in the Welsh tradition of patrynomic names. I have an ancestor named John Peregrine in 1841 census Llanycefn Pembrokekshire. However there is no record of his marriage to his wife Anne in any of Pembs parish records in mid Pembrokeshire nor in Carmarthenshire. He would have married approx 1820. He had children born from 1825 onwards. The biggest mystery is that his daughter Mary called herself Mary John at the date of her marriage at Narberth Registry Office in mid 1840's. I have found the marriage. However in 1841 she was aged 15 and was Mary Peregrine, living in Llanycefn. There is no record of either of her parents having re-married. However Mary married Daniel Peregrine of Meline(probably a cousin) and perhaps thought that she would not call herself "Peregrine" on the date of her marriage, as it would cause confusion being bride and groom would be "Peregrine" before the marriage. I have found quite a few John Johns in Llanycefn area prior to 1841(parish records etc) and found a John John marrying Anne Morris 1816 Llanycefn. Because of all this, are there any records of surnames fluctuating from being Christian name of father to a stabilized different surname(within the same family). This period of time that I am interested in, is of course quite late(1830's 1840's.) I was under the impression that this custom would no longer be in existence at that time. All the other Peregrine children from Llanycefn were named "Peregrine" Also for your information Llanycefn is a small parish. Hope someone can help! Yvonne Evans

Hello Yvonne   There's a reference to a Daniel Peregrine of Meline in the index of journals on the Dyfed FHS website.  This article might give you some clues if you haven't already seen it.  Apologies if you have!   Regards Sandra   ________________________________ From: yvonne evans <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Cc: [email protected] Sent: Monday, 14 May 2012, 11:49 Subject: [Dyfed] Patrynomic surnames Hi List, I am wondering if anyone is knowledgeable in the Welsh tradition of patrynomic names.  I have an ancestor named John Peregrine in 1841 census Llanycefn Pembrokekshire.  However there is no record of his marriage to his wife Anne in any of Pembs parish records in  mid Pembrokeshire nor in Carmarthenshire. He would have married approx 1820. He had children born from 1825 onwards.  The biggest mystery is that his daughter Mary called herself Mary John at the date of her marriage at Narberth Registry Office in mid 1840's.  I have found the marriage.  However in 1841 she was aged 15 and was Mary Peregrine, living in Llanycefn.  There is no  record of either of her parents having re-married.  However Mary married Daniel Peregrine of Meline(probably a cousin) and perhaps thought that she would not call herself "Peregrine" on the date of her marriage, as it  would cause confusion being bride and groom would be "Peregrine" before the marriage. I have found quite a few John Johns in Llanycefn area prior to 1841(parish records etc) and found a John John marrying Anne Morris 1816 Llanycefn.  Because of all this, are there any records of surnames fluctuating from  being Christian name of father to a stabilized  different surname(within the same family).  This period of time that I am interested in, is of course quite late(1830's 1840's.) I was under the impression that this custom would no longer be in existence at that time. All  the other Peregrine children from Llanycefn were named "Peregrine"  Also for your information  Llanycefn is a small parish. Hope someone can help! Yvonne Evans ================================ Dyfed list http://home.clara.net/daibevan/DyfedML.html ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

On 14/5/12 11:49, "yvonne evans" <[email protected]> wrote: > Hi List, > > I am wondering if anyone is knowledgeable in the Welsh tradition of patrynomic > names. I have an ancestor named John Peregrine in 1841 census Llanycefn > Pembrokekshire. However there is no record of his marriage to his wife Anne > in any of Pembs parish records in mid Pembrokeshire nor in Carmarthenshire. > He would have married approx 1820. He had children born from 1825 onwards. > The biggest mystery is that his daughter Mary called herself Mary John at the > date of her marriage at Narberth Registry Office in mid 1840's. I have found > the marriage. However in 1841 she was aged 15 and was Mary Peregrine, living > in Llanycefn. There is no record of either of her parents having re-married. > However Mary married Daniel Peregrine of Meline(probably a cousin) and perhaps > thought that she would not call herself "Peregrine" on the date of her > marriage, as it would cause confusion being bride and groom would be > "Peregrine" before the marriage. > I have found quite a few John Johns in Llanycefn area prior to 1841(parish > records etc) and found a John John marrying Anne Morris 1816 Llanycefn. > Because of all this, are there any records of surnames fluctuating from > being Christian name of father to a stabilized different surname(within the > same family). This period of time that I am interested in, is of course > quite late(1830's 1840's.) I was under the impression that this custom would > no longer be in existence at that time. > All the other Peregrine children from Llanycefn were named "Peregrine" Also > for your information Llanycefn is a small parish. > > Hope someone can help! > > > Yvonne Evans Hello Yvonne I can't help you regarding the use of patronymic surnames in the early - mid 19th century. Some clarification is required regarding the 1841 and 1851 censuses. My Dyfed FHS fiche of those censuses have, in the 1841: Llandisilio (West) John PERGRIN, 40 [- 44], mason, born in Pem Anne PERGRIN, 45 [- 49], not born in Pem David PERGRIN, 15 [- 19] , born in Pem Lettuce PERGRIN, 10(?), born in Pem and in the 1851: Llanycefn John PEREGRINE, 60, b. Llandisilio Daniel PEREGRINE, 24, b. Eglwyswrw Mary PEREGRINE, 22, b. Llandisilio Anne PEREGRINE, 8, b. Llandisilio Martha PEREGRINE, 2, b. Llanycefn Cezia PEREGRINE, 8mo., b. Llanycefn (Dan[ie]l. was a servant boy in Meline in 1841 [not with his family]). There were several PEREGRIN families in Eglwyswrw in 1841. If the John PERGRIN and PEREGRINE were the same person, then the implication is that Anne was possibly born in Carmarthenshire and that is where their marriage might have taken place (although I can't find one on the DFHS fiche of 1813 - 37 marriages in west Carmarthenshire). I have two great great grandparents who were first cousins with the same surname PERKINS marrying in Nolton in 1843. I suspect you will find it difficult to find out why Mary didn't use Peregrine at her marriage to Daniel. Gerry Lewis