Thanks so much for this interesting discussion. Achwyr can you please post the "George Owen" reference and any other sources? I would like to read more about this. My father's lineage is almost all from the area south of Milford Haven (if fact this summer I plan on exploring ancestral locations such as Tenby, Manorbier, Pwllcrochan and Penfro by walking this part of the Pembrokeshire coastal trail). Darryl ------------------------------------------------- Darryl Gwynne, Glen Williams, Canada (GWYNNE WADE SKONE YOUNG ADAMS) -------------------------------------------------- On 2012-02-17, at 6:47 PM, yr achwr <[email protected]> wrote: > Marcus, > I agree with you that the position is not completely Black and White. > > There is a common perception, that below the Landsker Line, the indigenous Welsh population were "wiped out". > This is probably true of Rhos Hundred, where the Flemmings were settled. There is scarcely a place name that is Welsh in Origin, or a Church dedicated to a Celtic SaInt. George Owen, refers to the hatred of the Flemmings who "reading between the lines" had indulged in ethnic cleansing. > Manorbier Hundred however, which is South of the Haven, and the original area settled by the Normans reveals a completely different story. > The survival of so many names derived from Welsh, and the numerous Churches dedicated to Welsh or Celtic Saints, in the area, suggests that for the bulk of the population, it was simply a matter of a change of Overlord. > There are extant Deeds at the National Archives, from the 13th Century which I believe confirms this. > The very survival of names like Pembroke - Penfro, Tenby - Dinbych y Pysgod ( to distinguish it from Dinbych - Denbigh in North Wales), Manorbier - Maenorbir, Pwllcrochan etc. is evidence of the survival of an articulate local population, who passed on the names. > It probably took several generations before they were completely assimilated, and lost their native tongue. > Pembrokeshire Parsons in WWHR gives several incumbents whose name included "ap", around 1500 in Manorbier Hundred. These were undoubtedly Welsh Speaking, and presumably brought up their offspring to be Bi-Lingual. > There was also a lot more intercourse between the landowning classes in South Pembrokeshire and further afield than is generally recognised. > There are examples of migration of Warrens from Kilgerran and Nevern in North Pembs to the Hundred of Manorbier in the 1700's. > Such an emigre might well have named his property by a Welsh Name. > There are probably hundreds of houses in Wales at present, named Bella Vista. In 400 years without the benefit of any records or documents might not our descendents believe that the name dated from Roman Times? > Achwr > > > > ======================================== > Message Received: Feb 17 2012, 11:13 PM > From: "Marcus Griffiths" > To: "Gareth" > Cc: "Dyfed List" > Subject: Re: [Dyfed] Was Llanreath now Landsker > > Gareth and Gerry > Thanks for your comments. > I am fairly well aware of the Landsker and it's history (I will spell it > correctly this time!) and have some of Brian John's writings. Indeed I met > his wife and possibly Brian years ago at his wife's candle workshop. > > I was really musing about the scattered Welsh names in the otherwise > English speaking areas and whether there was' even before the railway' > enough movement to suggest a possible explanation for some of these > examples. There were, of course, a reasonable number of Welsh speakers who > migrated to the industry of South Pembrokeshire particularly the Dockyard > which being a government establishment would not have encouraged 'yr hen > iaith' as the national anthem calls Welsh (the old language) > Marcus > > ================================ > Dyfed list http://home.clara.net/daibevan/DyfedML.html > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > ACHwr > > ================================ > Dyfed list http://home.clara.net/daibevan/DyfedML.html > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >