Rhodri - Back to the Dictionary to look up Clerks: Clerk - 1) A man or boy who had been ceremonially tonsured by the bishop, whether he subsequently took hold orders or not. 2) A clergyman, in which case the term is an abbreviation for ‘clerk of the holy orders’. 3) A man skilled in writing work; but a clerk in the modern sense of one engaged in office work was called a Writer. 4) The Clerk of the Peace was the principal legal officer of the Quarter Sessions. He was a trained attorney who guided the court proceedings and superintended all county business in the intervals between sessions. 5) The Parish Clerk was often responsible for entering up the registers of baptisms, marriages, and burials, and might keep a draft register from which the official register book was posted up at intervals. Today, if a clergyman is asked to make a search in his parish register for genealogical purposed, he is liable to pass the job on to his parish clerk, a fact worth bearing in mind. I had a 4th g. grandmother whose brother was a parish clerk. He was a wounded mariner living on a pension in the village of Rosemarket (in the late 1700’s – to mid 1800’s), and he could read and write. I believe that was his only qualification. He farmed otherwise. There is a diagram of the church organizational structure below the definition. I could try to copy it and send it to you if this makes no sense. 1st there is the Archbishop of Canterbury Below him is the Archbishop of York Then come the Diocesan Bishops (2) of the Provinces of Canterbury and York Below those two is Suffragan Bishops (doesn’t indicate how many) Then there are the Dioceses with Archdeacons and The Chapter (Dean of the Cathedral). Below the Archdeacons are Rural Deans Then come the Parishes with Rectors and Vicars and Perpetual Curates. The Rectors and Vicars have Curates listed below them in the hierarchy. Lynne in Tucson From: RHODRI DAFIS Sent: Monday, September 30, 2013 1:49 PM To: Lynne Ingalls ; Dyfdd List [Dyfdd List] Subject: Re: [Dyfed] Curates Lynne, What you say, was my understanding of what a curate was. I had interpreted it as or at least assumed that Curates had been ordained in Holy Orders, and were simply awaiting for the chance through patronage to be promoted to a Parish of their own. It is probably that those in Perpetual Curacies were ordained priests, as the incumbent would to all intents and purposes be the equivalent of a Vicar or Rector. There however numerous references in Deeds and Wills, and many Wills of Individuals styled as Clerks in the 16 and 17 hundreds who do not appear in the Diocesan Records. I may be wrong, but believe on my interpretation of the evidence I have found, that the Incumbents employed individuals to act as their assistants, and paid them out of their own Stipend. This appears to have been a private arrangement, as their names do not appear in Diocesan Records, or as having attended University, which seems to have automatically qualified them for priesthood. What functions they could or could not perform on behalf of the incumbent, is another question. Rhodri ======================================== Message Received: Sep 30 2013, 08:32 PM From: "Lynne Ingalls" To: rdafis@fsmail.net, "Dyfdd List [Dyfdd List]" Cc: Subject: Re: [Dyfed] Curates Rhodri - The Dictionary of Genealogy (which everyone should have) says, "until the seventeenth century the term 'curate' was often synonymous with 'incumbent,' but latterly it has applied almost exclusively to an assistant parish priest, paid a salary or stipend and removable by the incumbent or bishop. A Perpetual Curate is one in charge of a parish church where the tithes have been impropriated and there is no endowed vicarage." The dictionary then says, "see Church of England hierarchy," which isn't in the dictionary. Maybe you could Google it. Lynne in Tucson -----Original Message----- From: RHODRI DAFIS Sent: Monday, September 30, 2013 11:37 AM To: Dyfdd List [Dyfdd List] Subject: [Dyfed] Curates List, This may sound a stupid question, but I am confused by who was termed a Curate, and how the definition changed between say 1700 and the present day. I was under the impression that a Curate was always a Clerk in Holy Orders, ordained by the Bishop, but I appear to be mistaken. Can anyone enlighten me? Thanks, Rhodri ================================ Dyfed list REVISED resources http://home.clara.net/daibevan/DyfedML.html [Dec2012] ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DYFED-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message Rhodri