-----Original Message----- From: dyfed-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dyfed-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of RHODRI DAFIS Sent: 30 September 2013 21:49 To: Lynne Ingalls; Dyfdd List [Dyfdd List] Subject: Re: [Dyfed] Curates <<I had interpreted it as or at least assumed that Curates had been ordained in Holy Orders, and were simply awaiting for the chance through patronage to be promoted to a Parish of their own ... It is probably that those in Perpetual Curacies were ordained priests, as the incumbent would to all intents and purposes be the equivalent of a Vicar or Rector. There however numerous references in Deeds and Wills, and many Wills of Individuals styled as Clerks in the 16 and 17 hundreds who do not appear in the Diocesan Records. I may be wrong, but believe on my interpretation of the evidence I have found, that the Incumbents employed individuals to act as their assistants, and paid them out of their own Stipend. This appears to have been a private arrangement, as their names do not appear in Diocesan Records, or as having attended University, which seems to have automatically qualified them for priesthood.>> So are we talking about curates, or are we talking about "clerks"? In the older sense a curate was a clergyman who had charge of a parish (having "cure of souls"). He could be a rector, a vicar or a "perpetual curate". This is also the sense in which the word is generally used in the Book of Common Prayer. In more modern usage, the word came to be understood as implying an "assistant curate" within a parish, although it could also be used for any unbeneficed clergyman. Assistant curates were ordained clergy who might be nominated either by the incumbent of a parish or by the bishop. They were however still licensed by the bishop, who could also revoke their license. They did not always need to be graduates - in the last analysis this was up to the discretion of the ordaining bishop. Efforts were certainly made to work towards an all-graduate clergy (notably by Archbishop Sancroft in 1685). But in reality this was an impractical objective, especially in rural areas. The number of non-graduate clergy (sometimes called 'literates'), varied from diocese to diocese, but it was particularly high within Welsh dioceses such as St David's. From the 18th century many Welsh curates were products of local grammar schools, such as Carmarthen, Brecon or Ystrad Meurig, which offered a limited theological training. The first actual theological college catering for such clergy to become firmly established was at St Bees, Cumberland, in 1816. St Bees produced a significant number of Welsh clergy in the 19th century. Non-resident incumbents, who employed a curate or assistant curate to carry out their actual parish duties, were relatively common in former times. I don't know what the original references are which lie behind this query. But doubtless some curates would have moved from other dioceses, or sometimes there will be gaps within the surviving diocesan records. AJ