Dear list. as the discussions regarding this went onto suicides I wonder if anyone could advise me on burials of those who took their own lives. I have read in past that they might be buried in a churchyard but - in a far corner - or on un-consecrated ground within the churchyard walls.. what about headstones facing the other way? ie.. next door to other family members but turned the wrong way? any reason for that? Many thanks. Melanie ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2014 12:02:26 +0000 (GMT) From: Jennifer Cairns <jenmathias@gmail.com> Subject: [Dyfed] Possibly Dodgy Death Registration To: "dyfed@rootsweb.com" <dyfed@rootsweb.com> Message-ID: <1395489746.55216.YahooMailNeo@web172703.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Dear List Date of the following incident was 1927 - Cardiganshire Can anyone direct me to a reliable source for medical/forensic history?? Have recently have been led to a death where the family story is that ggrandfather was shot by drunken shooting guest of the local mansion and died a week later. However, death certificate gives the cause of death as kidney stones and renal colic, but curiously also states "no post-mortem". The deceased was aged 42, and it wasn't a doctor from the local town who certified the death, but another from a town a few more miles further away.? Newspaper reports say the man (gamekeeper) died a painful death. Unless very unlucky most people have two working kidneys, and it is most unusual for death to be from kidney stones (and yes I am also aware that this condition is one of the most painful things to have to endure) - also the man was reasonably young. So lack of pm seems odd.? Could the powerful people in the mansion cover up such an event. The family also tell me that the mansion owners were very very generous to them after the death. The other possibility (and have a case of this in my family) the family invented a tall story to cover the unpleasant physical details of this death.? In my family I was told my grandfather died in a mining accident - but the death cert states he died of throat cancer. Any ideas, or any names of any useful reference books would be appreciated. Jen

Dear Melanie Note, I have changed the subject line to Suicides and Dodgy Burial records. Apparently the practice of “Ignominious burials” ie burials NOT in a graveyard was abolished in 1824. Quote from a forum.... “the practice of "ignominious burials" (burials that did not take place in churchyards) was abolished in 1824, the statute providing that the burial should take place in a churchyard at night, but without religious rites.” The law concerning property forfeiture in suicide wasn't abolished in England until 1870 (although the last ignominious burial was in 1823/4).  See my note of recorded confiscation in Pembrokeshire below. “In 1882, suicides were allowed to be buried during daylight hours.”  Suicide in the United Kingdom didn't actually stop being a crime until the passing of the Suicide Act in 1961.  However...  "Suicides, if of sound mind, may still not be buried with full Anglican rites, a prohibition not laid down directly by canon law, but by a rubric in the prayer book. If, however, the Coroner holds that the suicide's mind was unbalanced at the time of the act, then the prohibition does not apply." Source: Cripps: Church and Clergy. Some records of Suicides in the 17th century losing their goods (Pembrokeshire) Pembrokeshire in By-gone Days.(Francis Green) West Wales Historical Records Vol. IX. 1920-23. “The rights of the lord of a manor even after the Restoration were valuable. Thus the lord of Picton Castle in 1685 was entitled to hold Courts leet, Courts Baron, and Views of Frank pledge. He was also entitled to heriots, deodands, waifs and strays, the goods of felons, fugitives, attainted persons, suicides and outlaws, and also to treasure trove, wrecks, escheats, fines and amercements, in a large number of parishes. In like manner the lord of Walwinscastle manor had similar privileges...” Here are a few suicide burial examples from LAMPETER MARTIN LYNCH, Soldier, aged 18, Lampeter From the CAMBRIAN, 8th June 1844  "SUICIDE OF A SOLDIER. —On the morning of Thursday week, one of the privates belonging to the detachment of the 76th regiment now stationed at Lampeter, committed suicide, [gory details edited out here] The melancholy circumstance excited the deepest sensation throughout the whole place.  A verdict of  temporary derangement was recorded by the coroner’s jury."   also from The Bristol Mercury (same date) ... "The body was interred the following day; and .... he  was buried without military honours." I have been unable to trace his burial site.  But death recorded in the church register, and no comments added, and this fits with the quote from Cripps as above re unsound mind. NB in case you are wondering – this regiment was posted to Lampeter and district in order to prevent the actions of Merched Beca (Daughters of Rebecca, the anti-toll gate rioters of mid 19th century – who had had a very successful visit to Lampeter.) EVANS, DANIEL( DanielDdu o Geredigion ; 1792 - 1846 ), cleric and poet ; b. at Maesmynach , a farm in the parish of Llanfihangel Ystrad, Cards. He d. by his own hand , 28 March 1846 , and was buried in Pencarreg churchyard on 1st April. [from Dict Welsh Biog, LLGC] Parish register says “Daniel Evans, BD, Clerk” and although he lived in Llanwnnen area he was buried in Pencarreg where he occasionally preached, and the vicar of Llanwnnen signed the register entry.  I have no other details. I do not know Pencarreg church yard, perhaps a lister may know if his grave is marked. HERBERT LLOYD( 1719 - 1769 ) (Voelallt, Maesyfelin, Peterwell) “He d. by his own hand in London on 19 Aug. 1769 , his estates heavily encumbered by debt.” [Dict. Of Welsh Biog] My note – Died August 19th in London, buried in Lampeter CHURCH 3rd September 1769 – apparently  bumbailiffs constrained his body whilst awaiting payment of debts, but they were rendered drunk and he was buried in the dead of night.... or so they say. I have not traced his grave site but I am assured that a headless horseman can occasionally be seen driving a carriage from the old Peterwell drive towards the church. You have been warned. I have not found any mention of pagan traditions such as burying at cross roads, turning round of stones, etc.  Lampeter church yard has an area where the people of the workhouse were buried, at the West/nor'west end of the church, against the furthest wall. But I do not know of any known “unconsecrated” area.  However, I do know of a church in Cheshire which has an unconsecrated area, close to the church where a local bigwig who had converted to Islam was buried (1903) This, is Nether Alderley, and the deceased was from the Stanley family.... their family mausoleum is also on unconsecrated ground - a brother of Henry converted to Roman Catholicism. Also, in these days of more enlightenment Roman Catholics are buried  in Lampeter church yard as well.  (The Catholic church has no graveyard, and is next door to the Anglican church). I wonder where they were buried in less broadminded days.  I asked a local resident this morning how/where they buried suicides in the chapel graveyard. And he replied,in a good Cardi traditional way... “Well, there’s plenty of room.” Jen ________________________________ From: melanie stark <mel.stark@hotmail.co.uk> Subject: Re: [Dyfed] Possibly dodgy death registration Dear list. as the discussions regarding this went onto suicides I wonder if anyone could advise me on burials of those who took their own lives. I have read in past that they might be buried in a churchyard but - in a far corner - or on un-consecrated ground within the churchyard walls.. what about headstones facing the other way? ie.. next door to other family members but turned the wrong way? any reason for that? Many thanks. Melanie ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jennifer Cairns <jenmathias@gmail.com> Subject: [Dyfed] Possibly Dodgy Death Registration Can anyone direct me to a reliable source for medical/forensic history?? Have recently have been led to a death where the family story is that ggrandfather was shot by drunken shooting guest of the local mansion and died a week later. However, death certificate gives the cause of death as kidney stones and renal colic, but curiously also states "no post-mortem". The deceased was aged 42, and it wasn't a doctor from the local town who certified the death, but another from a town a few more miles further away.?           

I forgot to mention another probable suicide of local interest - showing a jury and coroner ignoring the obvious and going for a kinder and compassionate verdict... Mary Saunders, battered wife (husband - born Lampeter - sent to jail for a year) lost her son and son-in-law in the Senghenydd 1913 pit disaster. She took her own life almost exactly one year later October 1914. Verdict - death by misadventure, by acid poisoning due to taking Carbolic Acid in mistake for Medicine. She lies with her son and other members of her family in Penyrheol graveyard.  Some of us will remember those distinctive bright blue coloured bottles for poisons, with heavy ridging. Impossible to mix them up in the light or in darkness. Jen