Gareth, "It is my understanding that the BMDs certificates have been digitised at great expense to the taxpayer." Based on what? Give me facts and figures not your opinion for what it may be worth. Back it up, with factual information or shut up! "The index for these certificates have also been digitised at great expense to the public although the digital index was made from the ones held at General Register Office, which were indexed off the local returns and were not as accurate as the local index, due to the incentives given to those doing the work." "at great expense to the public" Where are exactly are you coming from? A member of the Public, or a Genealogist or at least someone interested in their Ancestry. What exactly is your motive, for simply endorsing the petition, without providing in my view at least any justification? Are you also on commission? I agree that the local indexes are far more accurate than that at the GRO. The GRO Indexes are already available on Free BMD. "due to the incentives given to those doing the work." Contracted to India, and other countries where there is cheap labour, but no knowledge of Surnames, Christian Names or Place Names. Just look at the Information provided my Commercial Enterprises to see the lack of knowledge. Commercial Enterprises don't care. Their motive is profit not accuracy. If you want accurate information then you should be petitioning for local Family History Societies to be allowed to Index the Local Registers. At the moment it is Hit or Miss, depending on the Whim of the Local Registrar. Some have allowed members of local Family History Societies to transcribe and Index their Records to the benefit of both. This in my opinion is what we should be petitioning for. I am seriously interested in Genealogy. and honestly believe, that for the "niche" information that Commercial Businesses do not consider profitable, unless they get it for nothing, Family History Societies have an important role. Take away their potential "niche" information, and commercialise it, and you end up with a myriad of fictitious pedigrees on the Internet, which only DNA tests will confirm are false. So Gareth, please explain what I and list members have to gain, by endorsing this petition. Rhodri ======================================== Message Received: Mar 26 2014, 11:05 AM From: "Gareth Morgan" To: dyfed@rootsweb.com Cc: Subject: Re: [Dyfed] Campaign to Open Historic Registers Hello Rhodri It is my understanding that the BMDs certificates have been digitised at great expense to the taxpayer. The index for these certificates have also been digitised at great expense to the public although the digital index was made from the ones held at General Register Office, which were indexed off the local returns and were not as accurate as the local index, due to the incentives given to those doing the work. Thank you Gareth P.S. http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/62779 http://anguline.co.uk/ohrn.html -------------------------------------------- On Tue, 25/3/14, RHODRI DAFIS wrote: Megan, Are you on commission, to so blatantly advance the interests of an apparently Commercial Enterprises? ================================ Dyfed list REVISED resources http://home.clara.net/daibevan/DyfedML.html [Dec2012] ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DYFED-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message Rhodri

Hello Rhodri It is my understanding that the BMDs certificates have been digitised at great expense to the taxpayer. The index for these certificates have also been digitised at great expense to the public although the digital index was made from the ones held at General Register Office, which were indexed off the local returns and were not as accurate as the local index, due to the incentives given to those doing the work. Thank you Gareth P.S. http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/62779 http://anguline.co.uk/ohrn.html -------------------------------------------- On Tue, 25/3/14, RHODRI DAFIS <rdafis@fsmail.net> wrote: Megan, Are you on commission, to so blatantly advance the interests of an apparently Commercial Enterprises?

Megan, Are you on commission, to so blatantly advance the interests of an apparently Commercial Enterprises? Who exactly is Guy Etchells the Sponser of the Petition, and what is his interest? We are not all Naïve enough to sign up, with-ought further information. Your E-Mail message, does not make it easy to find the petition. For those who cannot be bothered to research for themselves, this is what the petition says. "Petition to open historic registers Responsible department: Home Office We ask that historic birth marriage & death registers be open to public inspection at county record offices or the National Archives Until 1973 registers of BMD held at superintendent registrar’s offices were open to public inspection Today’s technology available allows the registers to be digitized and made available as facsimile copies protecting the original from damage Commercial concerns are willing to scan the registers and make them available online under licence at no cost to the public purse. At what cost to you and me? A new accurate index of BMDs could be compiled by volunteers thereby complying with the 1836 legislation for the first time in 177 years. I doubt that many complied with the legislation, particularly as far as Birth Registration, which was not compulsory for many years, and therefore the Registers will not provide all the answers. Volunteers from Local Family History Societies, have for many years been transcribing and Indexing Local BMD Records by arrangement with the Local Registrar. This in my opinion is the way forward, as local volunteers have local knowledge of both Surnames and Place Names. The benefits include taking pressure off Superintendent Registrars and the GRO enabling them to concentrate on the core task of recording & administering current registrations. Again at what cost to individual researchers? At present, Local Registrars are in my experience fairly co-operative in allowing me to sit down and look through their registers. I am only charged, for any copies I request. I may be in the privileged position, of living in Dyfed and able to visit in person. Revenue would be created for the County Record Offices or the National Archives swelling the government coffers. County Record Offices, have to date no access to the Records held by the Local Registrars, unless Local Family History Societies, have with the permission of the Local Registrar, transcribed and/or indexed the Registers, and deposited copies. Personally I have no interest in swelling the coffers of Central Government, as I have yet as a Family Historian, seen any return. In my opinion As a member of a Dyfed Family History Society, I would encourage everyone to ignore the petition. All at no cost to the taxpayer or government. HMG will be paid by whatever Commercial Interest that Guy Etchells is acting for. HMG Will Profit. You and I are Taxpayers, and suddenly finding that a Commercial Company has the rights to Registered BMD, and able to charge whatever the decide for Certificates, is not in my opinion, in our best interests. Support the Petition, at Will, but on your Head be it. Rhodri Dafis ======================================== Message Received: Mar 25 2014, 03:47 PM From: "Megan Roberts" To: dyfed@rootsweb.com Cc: Subject: [Dyfed] Campaign to Open Historic Registers I am pasting below a message that I have received from another forum, which I thought the list might be interested in: There is now a petition online at: http:// epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/62779 Please sign this petition and share the url with your friends and contacts Apathy will destroy any chance of success. These registers are your heritage. They are archived for your information Please help to make it Easier and Cheaper to access them For more information about the campaign see: http:// anguline.co.uk/ohrn.html Megan Roberts ================================ Dyfed list REVISED resources http://home.clara.net/daibevan/DyfedML.html [Dec2012] ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DYFED-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message Rhodri

Rhodri, Did you use the 1911 census before 2011? Thank Guy Etchells. I do. Yes, I had to pay for it, but I was willing to do that -- the censuses have never been available for free I'm including here travel costs to view them at the few locations that made them available in person). Have you used the 1939 National Registration of the UK? Thank Guy Etchells. I do. Yes, I had to pay for it, but I was willing to do that. And there was no way to access them in person. I'll note, Anguiline Research Archives have not made any money from either of these initiatives. Would I like online access to BMD certificates? Yes, even if I have to pay for it, as long as it's faster and cheaper than the GRO or Local Register Office services. It'd almost certainly going to be cheaper than paying for a certified copy by mail without being able to check in advance that it's the right one. I'll be signing. But please, do your own thorough research. Helen www.colevalleygirl.co.uk

I am pasting below a message that I have received from another forum, which I thought the list might be interested in: There is now a petition online at: http:// epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/62779 Please sign this petition and share the url with your friends and contacts Apathy will destroy any chance of success. These registers are your heritage. They are archived for your information Please help to make it Easier and Cheaper to access them For more information about the campaign see: http:// anguline.co.uk/ohrn.html Megan Roberts

I forgot to mention another probable suicide of local interest - showing a jury and coroner ignoring the obvious and going for a kinder and compassionate verdict... Mary Saunders, battered wife (husband - born Lampeter - sent to jail for a year) lost her son and son-in-law in the Senghenydd 1913 pit disaster. She took her own life almost exactly one year later October 1914. Verdict - death by misadventure, by acid poisoning due to taking Carbolic Acid in mistake for Medicine. She lies with her son and other members of her family in Penyrheol graveyard.  Some of us will remember those distinctive bright blue coloured bottles for poisons, with heavy ridging. Impossible to mix them up in the light or in darkness. Jen

Dear Melanie Note, I have changed the subject line to Suicides and Dodgy Burial records. Apparently the practice of “Ignominious burials” ie burials NOT in a graveyard was abolished in 1824. Quote from a forum.... “the practice of "ignominious burials" (burials that did not take place in churchyards) was abolished in 1824, the statute providing that the burial should take place in a churchyard at night, but without religious rites.” The law concerning property forfeiture in suicide wasn't abolished in England until 1870 (although the last ignominious burial was in 1823/4).  See my note of recorded confiscation in Pembrokeshire below. “In 1882, suicides were allowed to be buried during daylight hours.”  Suicide in the United Kingdom didn't actually stop being a crime until the passing of the Suicide Act in 1961.  However...  "Suicides, if of sound mind, may still not be buried with full Anglican rites, a prohibition not laid down directly by canon law, but by a rubric in the prayer book. If, however, the Coroner holds that the suicide's mind was unbalanced at the time of the act, then the prohibition does not apply." Source: Cripps: Church and Clergy. Some records of Suicides in the 17th century losing their goods (Pembrokeshire) Pembrokeshire in By-gone Days.(Francis Green) West Wales Historical Records Vol. IX. 1920-23. “The rights of the lord of a manor even after the Restoration were valuable. Thus the lord of Picton Castle in 1685 was entitled to hold Courts leet, Courts Baron, and Views of Frank pledge. He was also entitled to heriots, deodands, waifs and strays, the goods of felons, fugitives, attainted persons, suicides and outlaws, and also to treasure trove, wrecks, escheats, fines and amercements, in a large number of parishes. In like manner the lord of Walwinscastle manor had similar privileges...” Here are a few suicide burial examples from LAMPETER MARTIN LYNCH, Soldier, aged 18, Lampeter From the CAMBRIAN, 8th June 1844  "SUICIDE OF A SOLDIER. —On the morning of Thursday week, one of the privates belonging to the detachment of the 76th regiment now stationed at Lampeter, committed suicide, [gory details edited out here] The melancholy circumstance excited the deepest sensation throughout the whole place.  A verdict of  temporary derangement was recorded by the coroner’s jury."   also from The Bristol Mercury (same date) ... "The body was interred the following day; and .... he  was buried without military honours." I have been unable to trace his burial site.  But death recorded in the church register, and no comments added, and this fits with the quote from Cripps as above re unsound mind. NB in case you are wondering – this regiment was posted to Lampeter and district in order to prevent the actions of Merched Beca (Daughters of Rebecca, the anti-toll gate rioters of mid 19th century – who had had a very successful visit to Lampeter.) EVANS, DANIEL( DanielDdu o Geredigion ; 1792 - 1846 ), cleric and poet ; b. at Maesmynach , a farm in the parish of Llanfihangel Ystrad, Cards. He d. by his own hand , 28 March 1846 , and was buried in Pencarreg churchyard on 1st April. [from Dict Welsh Biog, LLGC] Parish register says “Daniel Evans, BD, Clerk” and although he lived in Llanwnnen area he was buried in Pencarreg where he occasionally preached, and the vicar of Llanwnnen signed the register entry.  I have no other details. I do not know Pencarreg church yard, perhaps a lister may know if his grave is marked. HERBERT LLOYD( 1719 - 1769 ) (Voelallt, Maesyfelin, Peterwell) “He d. by his own hand in London on 19 Aug. 1769 , his estates heavily encumbered by debt.” [Dict. Of Welsh Biog] My note – Died August 19th in London, buried in Lampeter CHURCH 3rd September 1769 – apparently  bumbailiffs constrained his body whilst awaiting payment of debts, but they were rendered drunk and he was buried in the dead of night.... or so they say. I have not traced his grave site but I am assured that a headless horseman can occasionally be seen driving a carriage from the old Peterwell drive towards the church. You have been warned. I have not found any mention of pagan traditions such as burying at cross roads, turning round of stones, etc.  Lampeter church yard has an area where the people of the workhouse were buried, at the West/nor'west end of the church, against the furthest wall. But I do not know of any known “unconsecrated” area.  However, I do know of a church in Cheshire which has an unconsecrated area, close to the church where a local bigwig who had converted to Islam was buried (1903) This, is Nether Alderley, and the deceased was from the Stanley family.... their family mausoleum is also on unconsecrated ground - a brother of Henry converted to Roman Catholicism. Also, in these days of more enlightenment Roman Catholics are buried  in Lampeter church yard as well.  (The Catholic church has no graveyard, and is next door to the Anglican church). I wonder where they were buried in less broadminded days.  I asked a local resident this morning how/where they buried suicides in the chapel graveyard. And he replied,in a good Cardi traditional way... “Well, there’s plenty of room.” Jen ________________________________ From: melanie stark <mel.stark@hotmail.co.uk> Subject: Re: [Dyfed] Possibly dodgy death registration Dear list. as the discussions regarding this went onto suicides I wonder if anyone could advise me on burials of those who took their own lives. I have read in past that they might be buried in a churchyard but - in a far corner - or on un-consecrated ground within the churchyard walls.. what about headstones facing the other way? ie.. next door to other family members but turned the wrong way? any reason for that? Many thanks. Melanie ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jennifer Cairns <jenmathias@gmail.com> Subject: [Dyfed] Possibly Dodgy Death Registration Can anyone direct me to a reliable source for medical/forensic history?? Have recently have been led to a death where the family story is that ggrandfather was shot by drunken shooting guest of the local mansion and died a week later. However, death certificate gives the cause of death as kidney stones and renal colic, but curiously also states "no post-mortem". The deceased was aged 42, and it wasn't a doctor from the local town who certified the death, but another from a town a few more miles further away.?           

Dear list. as the discussions regarding this went onto suicides I wonder if anyone could advise me on burials of those who took their own lives. I have read in past that they might be buried in a churchyard but - in a far corner - or on un-consecrated ground within the churchyard walls.. what about headstones facing the other way? ie.. next door to other family members but turned the wrong way? any reason for that? Many thanks. Melanie ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2014 12:02:26 +0000 (GMT) From: Jennifer Cairns <jenmathias@gmail.com> Subject: [Dyfed] Possibly Dodgy Death Registration To: "dyfed@rootsweb.com" <dyfed@rootsweb.com> Message-ID: <1395489746.55216.YahooMailNeo@web172703.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Dear List Date of the following incident was 1927 - Cardiganshire Can anyone direct me to a reliable source for medical/forensic history?? Have recently have been led to a death where the family story is that ggrandfather was shot by drunken shooting guest of the local mansion and died a week later. However, death certificate gives the cause of death as kidney stones and renal colic, but curiously also states "no post-mortem". The deceased was aged 42, and it wasn't a doctor from the local town who certified the death, but another from a town a few more miles further away.? Newspaper reports say the man (gamekeeper) died a painful death. Unless very unlucky most people have two working kidneys, and it is most unusual for death to be from kidney stones (and yes I am also aware that this condition is one of the most painful things to have to endure) - also the man was reasonably young. So lack of pm seems odd.? Could the powerful people in the mansion cover up such an event. The family also tell me that the mansion owners were very very generous to them after the death. The other possibility (and have a case of this in my family) the family invented a tall story to cover the unpleasant physical details of this death.? In my family I was told my grandfather died in a mining accident - but the death cert states he died of throat cancer. Any ideas, or any names of any useful reference books would be appreciated. Jen

How both sad AND intriguing...  but $75, don't tell the GRO this, it will give them ideas ! Thanks for sharing. Jen ________________________________ From: Eliz Hanebury <elizhgene@gmail.com> To: Cc: Dyfed List <dyfed@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, 22 March 2014, 21:55 Subject: Re: [Dyfed] Possibly Dodgy Death Registration I also have a real dodgy death, my gguncle was said (in a RC church history) to have died of being buried by grain being off loaded at the brewery. In the newspapers he was said to have died at the State Hospital by hanging! At current price of $75.00 I will never know what the death Certificate says! Eliz Not Today and Not without a Fight (Anon) For all that has been, thanks. For all that will be, yes.     (Dag Hammarskjold) On Sat, Mar 22, 2014 at 5:48 PM, Alison Bryan <alison.bryan@gmail.com> wrote: > Also, suicide was a criminal offence until 1961.  Obviously, you could only > prosecute where there was a failed suicide attempt but they stigma was > there - it was seen as self-murder.  The deceased was denied a Christian > burial.  Also, families of those who commited a suicide act could be > potentially be prosecuted and the belongings stripped for the Crown. > > Alison > > > On 22 March 2014 21:31, Eliz Hanebury <elizhgene@gmail.com> wrote: > >> My evil mind says suicide due to great pain, which everyone went along >> with to spare the family anymore pain. That sort of polite fiction was >> very common back in the less official day. >> Eliz >> Not Today and Not without a Fight >> (Anon) >> >> For all that has been, thanks. >> For all that will be, yes. >>    (Dag Hammarskjold) >> >> >> On Sat, Mar 22, 2014 at 8:02 AM, Jennifer Cairns <jenmathias@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> > >> > >> > Dear List >> > >> > Date of the following incident was 1927 - Cardiganshire >> > >> > >> > Can anyone direct me to a reliable source for medical/forensic history? >>  Have recently have been led to a death where the family story is that >> ggrandfather was shot by drunken shooting guest of the local mansion and >> died a week later. >> > >> > >> > However, death certificate gives the cause of death as kidney stones and >> renal colic, but curiously also states "no post-mortem". The deceased was >> aged 42, and it wasn't a doctor from the local town who certified the >> death, but another from a town a few more miles further away. >> > >> > >> > Newspaper reports say the man (gamekeeper) died a painful death. >> > >> > >> > Unless very unlucky most people have two working kidneys, and it is most >> unusual for death to be from kidney stones (and yes I am also aware that >> this condition is one of the most painful things to have to endure) - also >> the man was reasonably young. So lack of pm seems odd. >> > >> > >> > Could the powerful people in the mansion cover up such an event. The >> family also tell me that the mansion owners were very very generous to them >> after the death. >> > >> > >> > The other possibility (and have a case of this in my family) the family >> invented a tall story to cover the unpleasant physical details of this >> death.  In my family I was told my grandfather died in a mining accident - >> but the death cert states he died of throat cancer. >> > >> > >> > Any ideas, or any names of any useful reference books would be >> appreciated. >> > >> > Jen >> > >> > >> > >> > ================================ >> > Dyfed list REVISED resources http://home.clara.net/daibevan/DyfedML.html [Dec2012] >> > >> > ------------------------------- >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> DYFED-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes >> in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ================================ >> Dyfed list REVISED resources http://home.clara.net/daibevan/DyfedML.html [Dec2012] >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> DYFED-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes >> in the subject and the body of the message >> > > ================================ > Dyfed list REVISED resources http://home.clara.net/daibevan/DyfedML.html [Dec2012] > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DYFED-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ================================ Dyfed list REVISED resources http://home.clara.net/daibevan/DyfedML.html [Dec2012] ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DYFED-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Yes, good point (and I have such an example in one of my local researches - a severely battered wife (husband sentenced to one year imprisonment) who had then lost a son and son-in-law in the Senghenydd 1914 disaster - then (also in 1914) died horribly from drinking carbolic acid.  There was a compassionate verdict - accidental death, coroner stated she had clearly confused the carbolic acid bottle for her cough mixture - so she lies with her son in Penyrheol graveyard.)   For those too young to know, in those days poison bottles were heavily ribbed (and coloured usually blue), so in day time or in the dark you knew what you had taken hold of was likely to be poisonous. But in this present case, suicide is not one of the options, although I did consider this point as well. Many thanks as well for the  other information. Jen ________________________________ From: Alison Bryan <alison.bryan@gmail.com> To: Dyfed List <dyfed@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, 22 March 2014, 21:48 Subject: Re: [Dyfed] Possibly Dodgy Death Registration Also, suicide was a criminal offence until 1961.  Obviously, you could only prosecute where there was a failed suicide attempt but they stigma was there - it was seen as self-murder.  The deceased was denied a Christian burial.  Also, families of those who commited a suicide act could be potentially be prosecuted and the belongings stripped for the Crown. Alison On 22 March 2014 21:31, Eliz Hanebury <elizhgene@gmail.com> wrote: > My evil mind says suicide due to great pain, which everyone went along > with to spare the family anymore pain. That sort of polite fiction was > very common back in the less official day. > Eliz > Not Today and Not without a Fight > (Anon) > > For all that has been, thanks. > For all that will be, yes. >    (Dag Hammarskjold) > > > On Sat, Mar 22, 2014 at 8:02 AM, Jennifer Cairns <jenmathias@gmail.com> > wrote: > > > > > > Dear List > > > > Date of the following incident was 1927 - Cardiganshire > > > > > > Can anyone direct me to a reliable source for medical/forensic history? >  Have recently have been led to a death where the family story is that > ggrandfather was shot by drunken shooting guest of the local mansion and > died a week later. > > > > > > However, death certificate gives the cause of death as kidney stones and > renal colic, but curiously also states "no post-mortem". The deceased was > aged 42, and it wasn't a doctor from the local town who certified the > death, but another from a town a few more miles further away. > > > > > > Newspaper reports say the man (gamekeeper) died a painful death. > > > > > > Unless very unlucky most people have two working kidneys, and it is most > unusual for death to be from kidney stones (and yes I am also aware that > this condition is one of the most painful things to have to endure) - also > the man was reasonably young. So lack of pm seems odd. > > > > > > Could the powerful people in the mansion cover up such an event. The > family also tell me that the mansion owners were very very generous to them > after the death. > > > > > > The other possibility (and have a case of this in my family) the family > invented a tall story to cover the unpleasant physical details of this > death.  In my family I was told my grandfather died in a mining accident - > but the death cert states he died of throat cancer. > > > > > > Any ideas, or any names of any useful reference books would be > appreciated. > > > > Jen > > > > > > > > ================================ > > Dyfed list REVISED resources http://home.clara.net/daibevan/DyfedML.html [Dec2012] > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DYFED-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message > > > ================================ > Dyfed list REVISED resources http://home.clara.net/daibevan/DyfedML.html [Dec2012] > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DYFED-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message > ================================ Dyfed list REVISED resources http://home.clara.net/daibevan/DyfedML.html [Dec2012] ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DYFED-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Also, suicide was a criminal offence until 1961. Obviously, you could only prosecute where there was a failed suicide attempt but they stigma was there - it was seen as self-murder. The deceased was denied a Christian burial. Also, families of those who commited a suicide act could be potentially be prosecuted and the belongings stripped for the Crown. Alison On 22 March 2014 21:31, Eliz Hanebury <elizhgene@gmail.com> wrote: > My evil mind says suicide due to great pain, which everyone went along > with to spare the family anymore pain. That sort of polite fiction was > very common back in the less official day. > Eliz > Not Today and Not without a Fight > (Anon) > > For all that has been, thanks. > For all that will be, yes. > (Dag Hammarskjold) > > > On Sat, Mar 22, 2014 at 8:02 AM, Jennifer Cairns <jenmathias@gmail.com> > wrote: > > > > > > Dear List > > > > Date of the following incident was 1927 - Cardiganshire > > > > > > Can anyone direct me to a reliable source for medical/forensic history? > Have recently have been led to a death where the family story is that > ggrandfather was shot by drunken shooting guest of the local mansion and > died a week later. > > > > > > However, death certificate gives the cause of death as kidney stones and > renal colic, but curiously also states "no post-mortem". The deceased was > aged 42, and it wasn't a doctor from the local town who certified the > death, but another from a town a few more miles further away. > > > > > > Newspaper reports say the man (gamekeeper) died a painful death. > > > > > > Unless very unlucky most people have two working kidneys, and it is most > unusual for death to be from kidney stones (and yes I am also aware that > this condition is one of the most painful things to have to endure) - also > the man was reasonably young. So lack of pm seems odd. > > > > > > Could the powerful people in the mansion cover up such an event. The > family also tell me that the mansion owners were very very generous to them > after the death. > > > > > > The other possibility (and have a case of this in my family) the family > invented a tall story to cover the unpleasant physical details of this > death. In my family I was told my grandfather died in a mining accident - > but the death cert states he died of throat cancer. > > > > > > Any ideas, or any names of any useful reference books would be > appreciated. > > > > Jen > > > > > > > > ================================ > > Dyfed list REVISED resources http://home.clara.net/daibevan/DyfedML.html [Dec2012] > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DYFED-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message > > > ================================ > Dyfed list REVISED resources http://home.clara.net/daibevan/DyfedML.html [Dec2012] > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DYFED-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message >

I also have a real dodgy death, my gguncle was said (in a RC church history) to have died of being buried by grain being off loaded at the brewery. In the newspapers he was said to have died at the State Hospital by hanging! At current price of $75.00 I will never know what the death Certificate says! Eliz Not Today and Not without a Fight (Anon) For all that has been, thanks. For all that will be, yes. (Dag Hammarskjold) On Sat, Mar 22, 2014 at 5:48 PM, Alison Bryan <alison.bryan@gmail.com> wrote: > Also, suicide was a criminal offence until 1961. Obviously, you could only > prosecute where there was a failed suicide attempt but they stigma was > there - it was seen as self-murder. The deceased was denied a Christian > burial. Also, families of those who commited a suicide act could be > potentially be prosecuted and the belongings stripped for the Crown. > > Alison > > > On 22 March 2014 21:31, Eliz Hanebury <elizhgene@gmail.com> wrote: > >> My evil mind says suicide due to great pain, which everyone went along >> with to spare the family anymore pain. That sort of polite fiction was >> very common back in the less official day. >> Eliz >> Not Today and Not without a Fight >> (Anon) >> >> For all that has been, thanks. >> For all that will be, yes. >> (Dag Hammarskjold) >> >> >> On Sat, Mar 22, 2014 at 8:02 AM, Jennifer Cairns <jenmathias@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> > >> > >> > Dear List >> > >> > Date of the following incident was 1927 - Cardiganshire >> > >> > >> > Can anyone direct me to a reliable source for medical/forensic history? >> Have recently have been led to a death where the family story is that >> ggrandfather was shot by drunken shooting guest of the local mansion and >> died a week later. >> > >> > >> > However, death certificate gives the cause of death as kidney stones and >> renal colic, but curiously also states "no post-mortem". The deceased was >> aged 42, and it wasn't a doctor from the local town who certified the >> death, but another from a town a few more miles further away. >> > >> > >> > Newspaper reports say the man (gamekeeper) died a painful death. >> > >> > >> > Unless very unlucky most people have two working kidneys, and it is most >> unusual for death to be from kidney stones (and yes I am also aware that >> this condition is one of the most painful things to have to endure) - also >> the man was reasonably young. So lack of pm seems odd. >> > >> > >> > Could the powerful people in the mansion cover up such an event. The >> family also tell me that the mansion owners were very very generous to them >> after the death. >> > >> > >> > The other possibility (and have a case of this in my family) the family >> invented a tall story to cover the unpleasant physical details of this >> death. In my family I was told my grandfather died in a mining accident - >> but the death cert states he died of throat cancer. >> > >> > >> > Any ideas, or any names of any useful reference books would be >> appreciated. >> > >> > Jen >> > >> > >> > >> > ================================ >> > Dyfed list REVISED resources http://home.clara.net/daibevan/DyfedML.html [Dec2012] >> > >> > ------------------------------- >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> DYFED-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes >> in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ================================ >> Dyfed list REVISED resources http://home.clara.net/daibevan/DyfedML.html [Dec2012] >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> DYFED-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes >> in the subject and the body of the message >> > > ================================ > Dyfed list REVISED resources http://home.clara.net/daibevan/DyfedML.html [Dec2012] > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DYFED-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

My evil mind says suicide due to great pain, which everyone went along with to spare the family anymore pain. That sort of polite fiction was very common back in the less official day. Eliz Not Today and Not without a Fight (Anon) For all that has been, thanks. For all that will be, yes. (Dag Hammarskjold) On Sat, Mar 22, 2014 at 8:02 AM, Jennifer Cairns <jenmathias@gmail.com> wrote: > > > Dear List > > Date of the following incident was 1927 - Cardiganshire > > > Can anyone direct me to a reliable source for medical/forensic history? Have recently have been led to a death where the family story is that ggrandfather was shot by drunken shooting guest of the local mansion and died a week later. > > > However, death certificate gives the cause of death as kidney stones and renal colic, but curiously also states "no post-mortem". The deceased was aged 42, and it wasn't a doctor from the local town who certified the death, but another from a town a few more miles further away. > > > Newspaper reports say the man (gamekeeper) died a painful death. > > > Unless very unlucky most people have two working kidneys, and it is most unusual for death to be from kidney stones (and yes I am also aware that this condition is one of the most painful things to have to endure) - also the man was reasonably young. So lack of pm seems odd. > > > Could the powerful people in the mansion cover up such an event. The family also tell me that the mansion owners were very very generous to them after the death. > > > The other possibility (and have a case of this in my family) the family invented a tall story to cover the unpleasant physical details of this death. In my family I was told my grandfather died in a mining accident - but the death cert states he died of throat cancer. > > > Any ideas, or any names of any useful reference books would be appreciated. > > Jen > > > > ================================ > Dyfed list REVISED resources http://home.clara.net/daibevan/DyfedML.html [Dec2012] > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DYFED-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Dear List Date of the following incident was 1927 - Cardiganshire Can anyone direct me to a reliable source for medical/forensic history?  Have recently have been led to a death where the family story is that ggrandfather was shot by drunken shooting guest of the local mansion and died a week later. However, death certificate gives the cause of death as kidney stones and renal colic, but curiously also states "no post-mortem". The deceased was aged 42, and it wasn't a doctor from the local town who certified the death, but another from a town a few more miles further away.  Newspaper reports say the man (gamekeeper) died a painful death. Unless very unlucky most people have two working kidneys, and it is most unusual for death to be from kidney stones (and yes I am also aware that this condition is one of the most painful things to have to endure) - also the man was reasonably young. So lack of pm seems odd.  Could the powerful people in the mansion cover up such an event. The family also tell me that the mansion owners were very very generous to them after the death. The other possibility (and have a case of this in my family) the family invented a tall story to cover the unpleasant physical details of this death.  In my family I was told my grandfather died in a mining accident - but the death cert states he died of throat cancer. Any ideas, or any names of any useful reference books would be appreciated. Jen

Billie, I agree that it is Blaencwm on Wern Land. I looked at the 1841 census and can find Wern, occupied by John Davies 65 and Jane 55. There are other families with the same address, but I can't see John & Rachel Davies, nor any mention of Blaencwm. Aside - the very next entry in the register after your Mary Anne is John, the son of my 3G grandparents, John and Mary Jones of Parkau. Dai On 20/03/2014 12:58, Billie R. McNamara wrote: I'm trying to create a possible family group from the Parish Register of Bettws Ifan, and I have found one entry in which I can't read the child's residence. If someone has knowledge of the area and access to FMP or another version of the actual pages, I'd be grateful for a review. 1 Nov 1835 Baptism Mary Anne Davies Daughter of Rachel & John (labourer) Residence looks like it says Blaencwm on Wern land Thanks in advance to anyone who can figure it out or offer insight!

Billie's note reminded me that I hadn';t forwarded this note from Glamorgan list. I find this sitemuch easier to use that the old-maps web site. Dai -------- Original Message -------- Subject: [GLA] Ordnance Survey Maps - Six-inch England and Wales, 1842-1952 Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2014 20:37:14 -0000 From: Martin Briscoe [1]<martin@mbriscoe.me.uk> Reply-To: [2]martin@mbriscoe.me.uk To: 'glam' [3]<GLAMORGAN@rootsweb.com>, [4]<powys@rootsweb.com>, Gwynedd List [5]<WLS-GWYNEDD@rootsweb.com> These have been posted on various lists but I don't think they have been posted here The National Library of Scotland have added 1st and 2nd Edition 6" OS Map of England and Wales to their online collection. They already have more recent 1:25000 maps of England and Wales there as well as late 19th Century 60"(?) coverage of London. [6]http://maps.nls.uk/os/6inch-england-and-wales/index.html The NLS also some other series for England and Wales, particularly the 1:25000 [7]http://maps.nls.uk/index.html [8]http://maps.nls.uk/series/index.html Map Series of England, Wales and Great Britain: Ordnance Survey, Six-Inch, England and Wales - 1842-1952 - 37,390 sheets Ordnance Survey, 1:25,000 maps of Great Britain - 1937-1961 - 2,027 sheets Ordnance Survey, One-Inch Revised new series, England and Wales, 1892-1908 - 691 sheets Ordnance Survey, One-Inch New Popular edition, England and Wales, 1945-1947 - 114 sheets Ordnance Survey, One-Inch Seventh Series, Great Britain, 1952-1961 - 190 sheets Ordnance Survey, "ten mile" Planning Maps of the United Kingdom, 1944-1960 Not Yorkshire but these are worth looking at Town plans: Ordnance Survey Five feet to the mile, London, 1893-1896 - 753 sheets They have an excellent range of maps of Scotland online including the 25" OS which I have not seen online in England and Wales so just hope they extend coverage to include that but you can look up the sheet numbers. [9]http://maps.nls.uk/geo/records/ There are also some other projects [10]http://maps.nls.uk/projects/index.html Martin Briscoe Fort William [11]martin@mbriscoe.me.uk -- To send to the list send to [12]glamorgan@rootsweb.com GLAMORGAN Family History Mailing List archives etc. are at [13]http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/intl/WLS/GLAMORGAN.html - This site has been prepared to help you use the Glamorgan List [14]http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~glamorgan/ - A large amount of information, and a wide variety of useful links, may be found at [15]http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/GLA/ - The South/West Wales Lookup Exchange and Gareth's Help Pages [16]http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~walesle/wal/AW.html and [17]http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~ukwales2/hicks.html ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [18]GLAMORGAN-request@roo tsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message References 1. mailto:martin@mbriscoe.me.uk 2. mailto:martin@mbriscoe.me.uk 3. mailto:GLAMORGAN@rootsweb.com 4. mailto:powys@rootsweb.com 5. mailto:WLS-GWYNEDD@rootsweb.com 6. http://maps.nls.uk/os/6inch-england-and-wales/index.html 7. http://maps.nls.uk/index.html 8. http://maps.nls.uk/series/index.html 9. http://maps.nls.uk/geo/records/ 10. http://maps.nls.uk/projects/index.html 11. mailto:martin@mbriscoe.me.uk 12. mailto:glamorgan@rootsweb.com 13. http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/intl/WLS/GLAMORGAN.html 14. http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~glamorgan/ 15. http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/GLA/ 16. http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~walesle/wal/AW.html 17. http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~ukwales2/hicks.html 18. mailto:GLAMORGAN-request@rootsweb.com

Billie, If you look at a map of Bettws Evan on the National Library of Scotland Web Site, Wern is in the South East Corner of the Sheet. I can't see Blaencwm listed on this 1887 Map though: [1]http://maps.nls.uk/view/101608672 Dai On 20/03/2014 12:58, Billie R. McNamara wrote: I'm trying to create a possible family group from the Parish Register of Bettws Ifan, and I have found one entry in which I can't read the child's residence. If someone has knowledge of the area and access to FMP or another version of the actual pages, I'd be grateful for a review. 1 Nov 1835 Baptism Mary Anne Davies Daughter of Rachel & John (labourer) Residence looks like it says Blaencwm on Wern land Thanks in advance to anyone who can figure it out or offer insight! References 1. http://maps.nls.uk/view/101608672

I can't decipher it any better, except that I think that your last 2 words may in fact be only one. Megan On 20 March 2014 12:58, Billie R. McNamara <billie@tnhillbillie.net> wrote: > I'm trying to create a possible family group from the Parish Register of > Bettws Ifan, and I have found one entry in which I can't read the child's > residence. If someone has knowledge of the area and access to FMP or > another version of the actual pages, I'd be grateful for a review. > > 1 Nov 1835 Baptism > Mary Anne Davies > Daughter of Rachel & John (labourer) > Residence looks like it says Blaencwm on Wern land > > Thanks in advance to anyone who can figure it out or offer insight! > > > > > ================================ > Dyfed list REVISED resources http://home.clara.net/daibevan/DyfedML.html [Dec2012] > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DYFED-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message > -- Megan Roberts Mobile: +44 7702 093 714 Home: +44 1257 231955

Thanks for the detailed reply Lynne. I have some ideas on a possible christian name for William Jordan's mother but no real certaintity. I will certainly attempt to chase up quarter and petty session records. Does anyone know if the Pembroke record Office accept Paypal - I live in Australia so sending a cheque is slow and costly. On 20 March 2014 10:48, Lynne Ingalls <lynne.ingalls@comcast.net> wrote: > John - > > I think some of the parish records have been lost. I have never been able > to find a baptism for an ancestor who resided in Rosemarket in the late > 1790's - 1800's, was married in Steynton parish, and had relatives living > in Burton, Llanstadwell, and Llangwm. The LDS film numbers for > Llanstadwell are 1238692 and 105182, item 2. If you have a Family History > Center near you, you can order the film. You can also contact the Pembroke > Record Office in Haverfordwest and see if someone can look thru the quarter > session and petty session records for you. William's father may have been > ordered to provide support for him. Their fees for providing searches are > reasonable. > > William would not have been listed by his father's surname in the LDS > records for this time period. They used patronymics to index the records, > so he would probably have been listed as William Richard rather than > Jordan. That is assuming he used his natural father's name at all. Do you > know the mother's name? > > Regards, > Lynne in Tucson > > > -----Original Message----- From: John Goold > Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2014 4:04 PM > To: DYFED@rootsweb.com > Subject: [Dyfed] PEM, Llanstadwell, Baptisms > > > Hi Listers, > > I am trying to find the baptism details for my Grt-Grt-Grandfather - > William Lachlan JORDAN. > I am certain he was born out of wedlock and that his parents never married. > > William was born c.1800/01 and stated on the 1861 census he was born in > Pembrokeshire. The Jordan family resided at Dumpledale (now Ashdale) and > appear in the registers for Llangwm, Burton, Rosemarket and Steynton. Find > My Past have all the parish registers for these parishes and surrounding > ones but do not seem to have Llanstadwell, and having looked in all the > surrounding parishes, I am hoping to find William in the only place I have > not/cannot look. > > I know that William's father was Richard Jordan, but he will probably not > be named on the baptism. > > Thus, I would like to find all the illegitimate "William's" from the > Llanstadwell baptisms c. 1799-1803. > Does anyone have access to the baptism records for Llanstadwell? > > -- > > > John Goold Warehouse Supervisor - Tasmania > 15 Killafaddy Road M: 0411 343 048Newstead, Tas. 7250 F: 03 63 392399 > SealedAir.comjohn.goold@SealedAir.com > > > My Mission Statement: *To understand what our customers want and create > solutions that deliver more than they expect in ways they never expected! * > > ================================ > Dyfed list REVISED resources http://home.clara.net/daibevan/DyfedML.html[Dec2012] > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DYFED-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message > -- John GooldWarehouse Supervisor - Tasmania 15 Killafaddy Road M: 0411 343 048 Newstead, Tas. 7250F: 03 63 392399 SealedAir.com john.goold@SealedAir.com My Mission Statement: *To understand what our customers want and create solutions that deliver more than they expect in ways they never expected! *

Dear John, I don't have baptisms, sorry. There are no Jordan males listed in the Rhos Hundred marriages before 1813..the last shown is James Jordan who married Sarah Davies at Haverfordwest St. Martin in 1786. However, Dorothy Jordan married Joseph Clare in 1801 at Llanstadwell. (If Richard was perhaps Dorothy's brother, I wonder if he signed as a witness at this marriage?) Have you looked for possible Wills on The National Library pre 1858 Will Probate site? I would suggest you have a look at the Llanstadwell area for Wills around that time .. sometimes there is a stray mention, or an ancestor compiles someone's Inventory. Maybe there are Jordan family Wills proved elsewhere which might provide a clue. No doubt your Richard, and maybe some of his kinsmen, were named for their ancestor Richard Jordan of Jordanston, Llanstadwell who died in 1580 and left ten sons and two daughters. Contrary to your expectations, you may find the father you seek. Richard Jordan, listed on the baptism...I have seen several written as "illegitimate son of ............ by ........." As your ancestor was given the Jordan surname, I doubt there will be an order against the father for maintenance......"naturals", I've found, were sometimes absorbed into the family without legal paperwork being required, or so it seems. If there was any maintenance record, Pembrokeshire Records Office would probably be able to help. Bettye Kirkwood, Sydney -----Original Message----- From: John Goold Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2014 10:04 AM To: DYFED@rootsweb.com Subject: [Dyfed] PEM, Llanstadwell, Baptisms Hi Listers, I am trying to find the baptism details for my Grt-Grt-Grandfather - William Lachlan JORDAN. I am certain he was born out of wedlock and that his parents never married. William was born c.1800/01 and stated on the 1861 census he was born in Pembrokeshire. The Jordan family resided at Dumpledale (now Ashdale) and appear in the registers for Llangwm, Burton, Rosemarket and Steynton. Find My Past have all the parish registers for these parishes and surrounding ones but do not seem to have Llanstadwell, and having looked in all the surrounding parishes, I am hoping to find William in the only place I have not/cannot look. I know that William's father was Richard Jordan, but he will probably not be named on the baptism. Thus, I would like to find all the illegitimate "William's" from the Llanstadwell baptisms c. 1799-1803. Does anyone have access to the baptism records for Llanstadwell? -- John Goold Warehouse Supervisor - Tasmania 15 Killafaddy Road M: 0411 343 048Newstead, Tas. 7250 F: 03 63 392399 SealedAir.comjohn.goold@SealedAir.com My Mission Statement: *To understand what our customers want and create solutions that deliver more than they expect in ways they never expected! * ================================ Dyfed list REVISED resources http://home.clara.net/daibevan/DyfedML.html [Dec2012] ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DYFED-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message