Hello list, I am looking for the will of John Hugh, Clyn, Llanelli dating 1838. Probate June 22nd. John Hugh was farmer. Were could I ask for a copy of this will? Elwyn -netherlands.

Dear Lynne, Separately I am sending you a copy of Trwmsaran from the Carmarthen Families section of West Wales Historical Records....... the pertinent points being: Holl. fychan m. Jane d. to Thos. Read of Carmarthen, her mo. was Margaret d. to Gr. ab Medd ab Henry Doone (i.e. Dwnn) . Bettye Kirkwood. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lynne Simpson" <lsimpson@netspeed.com.au> To: <dyfed@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 4:40 PM Subject: Re: [Dyfed] Thomas Rede, Kidcock, Wales > Hi all > > I am looking at Thomas Rede who married both Elen ferch Gruffydd ap > Nicolas > and Margred ferch Gruffydd Dwnn. I have the placename of KIDCOCK listed > against him, but I can't find out where this might be. Does anyone know? > > I have done some web searches but, unfortunately, the sites coming up have > nothing whatsoever to do with genealogy!!!! > > Cheers > > Lynne Simpson > Canberra Australia > > > ================================ > Dyfed list http://home.clara.net/daibevan/DyfedML.html > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DYFED-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message >

Dear Hilary, As the daughter's name was Hannah, a most likely marriage was between David Morgan and Hannah Beynon at Haverfordwest St. Martin in 1799. You could purchase a copy of the parish register entry for this marriage from Pembrokeshire Records Office, Haverfordwest which would give you witness names as well as knowledge whether your ancestors could write or made their mark. For a small fee the RO could also do a small search for baptism of any children and provide that information. In the St. David's Probate index there is a Will listed for a David Morgan proved at Haverfordwest St. Mary in 1827. Of course it is a fairly common Welsh name, but I would consider it worth a look now that The National Library ar Aberystwyth allows free on-line viewing of pre-1858 Wills. You may indeed find reference to either or both the Hannahs. Bettye Kirkwood, Sydney, Australia ----- Original Message ----- From: "J & H Thomas" <organic22@bigpond.com> To: <DYFED@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 8:46 AM Subject: [Dyfed] PEM: Thomas and Morgan at Haverfordwest > Hi All > > Seeking David MORGAN of Haverfordwest with daughter Hannah MORGAN b c > 1800 Haverfordwest, who marr > William THOMAS b also c 1800 in Haverfordwest, but they married in > London Wapping 1826 and baptised family in both > St Johns Wapping and St George in the east between 1827 and 1835. > > Are these names familiar to any other researcher? > > regards > > Hilary Thomas > Melbourne > Australia > > ================================ > Dyfed list http://home.clara.net/daibevan/DyfedML.html > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DYFED-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message >

Dear Elwyn   Your will is online - so go to this page and then check the means of obtaining a copy (see below)   http://cat.llgc.org.uk/probate   Choose   Diocese        Tyddewi/St Davids   fill in date, or leave blank     Type Name               John Hugh Parish              Llanelli   Click search,  on my results he came in at number 7   John Hugh, Clyn, Llanelli, Carmarthen, Farmer   - WILL 1838   and then there are four images of the will, including the titling.  Images 2 and 3 show the contents of John Hughs will.    THE INFORMATION SAYS ....   "To request a printed copy of this will, please take the following number to the enquiries desk 'SD1663-107' or to receive a copy through the post, please compete our on-line enquiry form. "   SD1663-107 is given as the number to quote for a printed version of John Hugh's will - for a digitised version I suggest you ask on the same enquiry form.  It doesnt give any clue as to the cost though.   Hope this works.   Jen     --- On Mon, 16/11/09, Elwyn Schreuder <e.schreuder7@chello.nl> wrote: From: Elwyn Schreuder <e.schreuder7@chello.nl> Subject: [Dyfed] will John Hugh Clyn Llanelli. To: dyfed-L@rootsweb.com Date: Monday, 16 November, 2009, 18:55 Hello list, I am looking for the will of John Hugh, Clyn, Llanelli dating 1838. Probate June 22nd. John Hugh was farmer. Were could I ask for a copy of this will? Elwyn -netherlands. ================================ Dyfed list http://home.clara.net/daibevan/DyfedML.html ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DYFED-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Thanks Bettye and Jennifer Bettye I was looking at the Advenae of Pembroke last week and found this (if I am reading it correctly) Rowland Mortimer of Coedmor Ralfe Mortimer (Lord Wigmore) = Gwladys d/o Llw ap Iewerth (Prince of North Wales) Roger Mortimer = Mawd d/o scloieir to Wm de Bruse Rees = Cath f: Jenkin Wm = Gwennll f: Wm Vach Rees = ? Phe = ? Howell = Alson f: Tho Read Cath = Tho Batman Can you shed any light on this? Cheers Lynne Simpson Canberra Australia -----Original Message----- From: dyfed-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dyfed-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of dyfed-request@rootsweb.com Sent: Monday, 12 October 2009 6:01 PM To: dyfed@rootsweb.com Subject: DYFED Digest, Vol 4, Issue 323 Please delete any irrelevant notes when replying to this digest. Today's Topics: 1. Re: Marriage licences and bonds (Roy Davies) 2. Re: Marriage licences and bonds (Rina Callingham) 3. Re: Marriage licences and bonds (Sylvia Birch) 4. Re: Marriage licences and bonds (Sylvia Birch) 5. Ancestry's reliable transcriptions (allen williams) 6. Marriage licences and bonds (Joy) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 15:36:18 +0100 From: Roy Davies <roydavies@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Dyfed] Marriage licences and bonds To: Katherine Hocking <km.hocking@btopenworld.com> Cc: dyfed@rootsweb.com Message-ID: <af8a42eb0910110736t651b4633qe1c7034ef2b19c82@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hi Katherine, Thanks for your response and in particular for informing me about the West Wales Historical Records. After a bit of googling I found that all 14 volumes are available on one CD from Parish Chest http://www.parishchest.com/ Presumably some other supplies will also sell the CD. Regards, Roy On Sat, Oct 10, 2009 at 9:52 PM, Katherine Hocking < km.hocking@btopenworld.com> wrote: > Hi, I would assume that both sets of parents gave consent because I have > seen entries which specify which of the partners in the marriage, is under > age and exactly who gave their consent. > The marriage bonds which I have only give the name of the persons getting > married, the parish where they live and where they intend to marry and the > names of the people who would be liable for paying the bond if the marriage > didn't take place. > On the rootsweb site there are a number of West Wales Historical Reviews > and Francis Green who edited the journals has copied most of the bonds. They > can be difficult to find because he didn't do all in one journal and > continued in subsequent volumes. I have found the bonds more by chance than > anything but someone may be able to tell you how to use the volumes in > order. > Katherine > ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 15:50:05 +0100 From: "Rina Callingham" <emma.callingham@tesco.net> Subject: Re: [Dyfed] Marriage licences and bonds To: <dyfed@rootsweb.com> Message-ID: <701CA5A06182489DA1A74BDB64AC345E@callinghamspc> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Hello Roy, At least one of the volumes of these records is available to read online at: http://www.archive.org/details/westwaleshistori09hist Rina http://www.a-glamorgan-family.com/index.html ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roy Davies" <roydavies@gmail.com> To: "Katherine Hocking" <km.hocking@btopenworld.com> Cc: <dyfed@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2009 3:36 PM Subject: Re: [Dyfed] Marriage licences and bonds > Hi Katherine, > > Thanks for your response and in particular for informing me about the West > Wales Historical Records. After a bit of googling I found that all 14 > volumes are available on one CD from Parish Chest > > http://www.parishchest.com/ > > Presumably some other supplies will also sell the CD. > > Regards, > > Roy ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 16:09:37 +0100 From: "Sylvia Birch" <sylvia@cenquest.co.uk> Subject: Re: [Dyfed] Marriage licences and bonds To: "Roy Davies" <roydavies@gmail.com>, "Katherine Hocking" <km.hocking@btopenworld.com> Cc: dyfed@rootsweb.com Message-ID: <008d01ca4a84$d9c18f80$0200a8c0@homepc> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Dear Roy I have the volumes and the Marriage Bonds and Fiats only go up to 1800. I did look when your message came through initially but as you needed 1821, I couldn't help. There are four Furlongs mentioned though in Pembrokeshire in the 1700's would you like the information on them? Best Wishes Sylvia ................................................................. Pembrokeshire Census, Memorials, Hearths, Orielton CD's and Baptist Sketches at www.cenquest.co.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roy Davies" <roydavies@gmail.com> To: "Katherine Hocking" <km.hocking@btopenworld.com> Cc: <dyfed@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2009 3:36 PM Subject: Re: [Dyfed] Marriage licences and bonds > Hi Katherine, > > Thanks for your response and in particular for informing me about the West > Wales Historical Records. After a bit of googling I found that all 14 > volumes are available on one CD from Parish Chest > > http://www.parishchest.com/ > > Presumably some other supplies will also sell the CD. > > Regards, > > Roy > > > On Sat, Oct 10, 2009 at 9:52 PM, Katherine Hocking < > km.hocking@btopenworld.com> wrote: > >> Hi, I would assume that both sets of parents gave consent because I have >> seen entries which specify which of the partners in the marriage, is >> under >> age and exactly who gave their consent. >> The marriage bonds which I have only give the name of the persons getting >> married, the parish where they live and where they intend to marry and >> the >> names of the people who would be liable for paying the bond if the >> marriage >> didn't take place. >> On the rootsweb site there are a number of West Wales Historical Reviews >> and Francis Green who edited the journals has copied most of the bonds. >> They >> can be difficult to find because he didn't do all in one journal and >> continued in subsequent volumes. I have found the bonds more by chance >> than >> anything but someone may be able to tell you how to use the volumes in >> order. >> Katherine >> > > ================================ > Dyfed list http://home.clara.net/daibevan/DyfedML.html > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DYFED-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 16:25:42 +0100 From: "Sylvia Birch" <sylvia@cenquest.co.uk> Subject: Re: [Dyfed] Marriage licences and bonds To: "Roy Davies" <roydavies@gmail.com> Cc: dyfed@rootsweb.com Message-ID: <009a01ca4a87$18f5c200$0200a8c0@homepc> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Dear Roy They may be useful for you sometime so here they are. October 8th 1745 Walter Duggan, gent, and Catherine FURLONG, spinster, both of the parish of St Michael, Pembroke. At St Michael, Pembroke. B. by said Walter Duggan and Thomas Furlong of the parish of St Michael, Pembroke. F. issued by Da. Havard. October 11th 1755 David Lewis, gent and Elizabeth FURLONG, spinster, both of the parish of Llandewy Velfrey, Pembs. B. by said David Lewis; witness: N.Morgan, N.P. F.issued by Tho.Eynon, Sur. June 22nd 1771 William FURLONG of the parish of Carey, Pembs (Carew?) gent., and Elisabeth Lewis of the parish of Mydrim, Carms., spinster. F. issued by John Rogers, Sur. September 15th 1784 John FURLONG, gent and Margaret Thomas, spinster, both of the parish of Lampeter Velfrey, Pembs. B. by said John Furlong and Thomas Philipps of the parish of Llanginning, Carms, gent; witness: Dan Williams. Best Wishes Sylvia ................................................................. Pembrokeshire Census, Memorials, Hearths, Orielton CD's and Baptist Sketches at www.cenquest.co.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roy Davies" <roydavies@gmail.com> To: "Katherine Hocking" <km.hocking@btopenworld.com> Cc: <dyfed@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2009 3:36 PM Subject: Re: [Dyfed] Marriage licences and bonds > Hi Katherine, > > Thanks for your response and in particular for informing me about the West > Wales Historical Records. After a bit of googling I found that all 14 > volumes are available on one CD from Parish Chest > > http://www.parishchest.com/ > > Presumably some other supplies will also sell the CD. > > Regards, > > Roy > > > On Sat, Oct 10, 2009 at 9:52 PM, Katherine Hocking < > km.hocking@btopenworld.com> wrote: > >> Hi, I would assume that both sets of parents gave consent because I have >> seen entries which specify which of the partners in the marriage, is >> under >> age and exactly who gave their consent. >> The marriage bonds which I have only give the name of the persons getting >> married, the parish where they live and where they intend to marry and >> the >> names of the people who would be liable for paying the bond if the >> marriage >> didn't take place. >> On the rootsweb site there are a number of West Wales Historical Reviews >> and Francis Green who edited the journals has copied most of the bonds. >> They >> can be difficult to find because he didn't do all in one journal and >> continued in subsequent volumes. I have found the bonds more by chance >> than >> anything but someone may be able to tell you how to use the volumes in >> order. >> Katherine >> > > ================================ > Dyfed list http://home.clara.net/daibevan/DyfedML.html > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DYFED-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 17:26:00 +0100 From: "allen williams" <gerald.williams23@ntlworld.com> Subject: [Dyfed] Ancestry's reliable transcriptions To: dyfed@rootsweb.com Message-ID: <op.u1m89mfyo2u7rf@one> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=utf-8 How do, all I have been looking for an antecedant of mine called Abraham (sometimes Abram) Thomas (born 1847) in the 1871 census as this was the one year I could not find and it was bugging me. Nothing remotely possible in the Ancestry search results, and having checked on Find My Past that he is actually there, I returned to Ancestry to find out why. They have misread Abram Thomas age 24 as Abina Moreen age 36. Ye gods and little fishes! Best wishes Allen Williams Sale Cheshire -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 03:37:19 +0100 From: Joy <joy.cozens@btinternet.com> Subject: [Dyfed] Marriage licences and bonds To: dyfed@rootsweb.com Message-ID: <4AD2965F.6030406@btinternet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Hi Roy I was very interested in your mention of the marriage of Bridget James to George Furlong at Llawhaden as George was the brother of Charlotte Furlong, my 4 x gt grandmother. I have a large amount of information on the Furlong family back to John Furlong who died in 1754. I only know that Bridget's parents were Thomas James and Frances (possibly Gibby) but I have not made a study of that family. Are you descended from the Furlong or James line? I wonder if you have any information that we could share? The question of marriage bonds was posed on a mailing list and the response was as follows: One of the greatest obsessions of the medieval church was to prevent marriages between people who were too closely related, or under age, or already married. One way that the church devised to regulate weddings was to force the couple to have a public announcement made of their intention to marry, on three sucessive Sundays, in both their home parish churches. It was hoped that this calling of banns, as it was known, would result in anyone who knew that the weddding should not happen would come forward and say so. This wasn't to everone's taste; the well-off did not like having to announce their plans to the hoi-polloi, and, in any case, some couples might not want to wait three weeks before tying the knot. So, from the Middle Ages onwards an alternataive system arose - seeking a licence from an ecclesiastical authority. To do so, the groom would make an allegation that there would be a marriage bond, whereby, instead of public scrutiny, the groom and a bondsman (who would often be a relative of the bride or groom) would simply give their word that all was above board. They would agree to pay a substantial fine, which they could ill afford, if they wre found to be lying The marriage bond was dated 17 Feb 1821, the marriage took place on 20 Feb 1821 and their first child, Thomas James Furlong, was baptised on 20 March 1821 ( the father's name being incorrectly given as John). This child was buried at Llawhaden on 13 June 1821 aged just three months. It would seem that speed was the necessity for the bond. Shotgun wedding as perhaps her family did not want her to bear another of his illegitimate children - he had already had an illegitimate daughter, Sarah, by Sarah Hitchings who was baptised at Narberth Parish Church on 6 April 1819. Kind regards Joy ------------------------------ To contact the DYFED list administrator, send an email to DYFED-admin@rootsweb.com. To post a message to the DYFED mailing list, send an email to DYFED@rootsweb.com. __________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DYFED-request@rootsweb.com with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the body of the email with no additional text. End of DYFED Digest, Vol 4, Issue 323 *************************************

Hi All Seeking David MORGAN of Haverfordwest with daughter Hannah MORGAN b c 1800 Haverfordwest, who marr William THOMAS b also c 1800 in Haverfordwest, but they married in London Wapping 1826 and baptised family in both St Johns Wapping and St George in the east between 1827 and 1835. Are these names familiar to any other researcher? regards Hilary Thomas Melbourne Australia

Dear Lynne, I think you might be looking for Kidwelly...because there were connections there. Bartrum pedigree chart "Read 2" shows Thomas ap William Read of Roche (Carms. 5) (l. 1449-52) His first wife is shown as Elen d. Gr. (of the line of) Ein. ap Ll. (7) so Bartrum does not appear to think she comes from Gruffudd ap Nicholas of Dynefor's line. (I have lots on him as he seems to be in my own ancestral line several times over), but being away from home for so long, remembering where I have filed everything is the problem). His second wife is Margred f. Gr. Dwnn (Llw. ap G. 2(A). The chart I have shows Margred, Lewis, Gruffudd, and two no-name daughters, then Morgan as coming from the first marriage. Alswn and Jane are shown from the second. I guess, however, it is Catrin who married Thomas ap Philip Bateman with whom you have an interest. Nothing further is shown for this couple....and it would seem that Bartrum did not know which of the two mothers she came from...if indeed she came from either of them. Lewis Read and his wife Annes f. Philip ....descended from Cadifor Fawr..(......Phillips of Cil Sant and Picton Castle lines) are the parents of Alswn who married one of my early James Devonalds There may be more on Bartrum sheet "Read 2A .......I don't have that one......nor do I have " Ein ap Ll. 7".....my pedigree charts came from The National Library several years ago...perhaps it is now on-line, or another Lister may have copies of Bartrum's pedigrees. I do have some Dwnn charts....Margaret is not on the ones I have found, but I'll look further. Regards Bettye Kirkwood. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lynne Simpson" <lsimpson@netspeed.com.au> To: <dyfed@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 4:40 PM Subject: Re: [Dyfed] Thomas Rede, Kidcock, Wales > Hi all > > I am looking at Thomas Rede who married both Elen ferch Gruffydd ap > Nicolas > and Margred ferch Gruffydd Dwnn. I have the placename of KIDCOCK listed > against him, but I can't find out where this might be. Does anyone know? > > I have done some web searches but, unfortunately, the sites coming up have > nothing whatsoever to do with genealogy!!!! > > Cheers > > Lynne Simpson > Canberra Australia > > > ================================ > Dyfed list http://home.clara.net/daibevan/DyfedML.html > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DYFED-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message >

Hello Listers, Is it possible to find the burial place of Thomas Phillips and also his death date. He was born 1861 at New Moat Pembs and lived in the New Moat/Henry's Moat/Rosebush areas. He was a mason by trade and a local poet with the bardic name "Glan Syfnau" Mainly he wrote religious pieces. There is no gravestone for him at Horeb Chapel Maenclochog where he should be buried(Baptist Chapel)Syfnau is the name of the river at Rosebush. Many thanks Yvonne Evans

Hi all I am looking at Thomas Rede who married both Elen ferch Gruffydd ap Nicolas and Margred ferch Gruffydd Dwnn. I have the placename of KIDCOCK listed against him, but I can't find out where this might be. Does anyone know? I have done some web searches but, unfortunately, the sites coming up have nothing whatsoever to do with genealogy!!!! Cheers Lynne Simpson Canberra Australia

Hello list, Am trying to find out where my James Harries and his wife Rachel Richard are buried. Couple got married in 1803 at Moylgrove Parish Church. So the death will have been near 1830-1850. Their daughter Elisabeth Harries married my Timothy Evans in 1834 at Clydey Church. Parents could have died before this time. Could not find them in 1841 census. I travelled to Clydey this summer but could not find any Harries headstone theire. A few Evans ones but no Timothy and his wife Elisabeth either. All suggestions welcome. Elwyn - Netherlands.

And here's one from the West Australian (Perth, Western Australia), Saturday 29 October 1898: 'MARRIAGE. THOMAS–WALTERS.—On the 22nd instant, at St. John's Church, West Perth, by the Rev. A.Gailey, DAVID THOMAS, of the s.s. Nemesis, late of Milford Hagen [! sic], Wales, to EDITH BLANCHE, eldest daughter of Charles Walters, Dawlish, Devonshire, England.' And, Reg, if you're listening, this bloke does not seem to be among the Morwyr Cymru on your list as yet. Couldn't see a mention of the S. S. Nemesis either. David Canberra

From the Sydney Morning Herald, Monday 15 April 1850: 'DIED At Reiby House, Macquarie-place, on the 13th April, Esther, wife of Mr. Joseph Taylor, formerly of Spitalfields House, and youngest daughter of Lewis Lewis, of Carmarthen, Wales.' David Canberra

Thanks for the reply Sylvia, I am looking for Viponds in the 1851 census that migrated from Cilycwm to Aberdare area. Lead miners in Carmarthenshire coal In Monmouthshire and in the 1855 to 60's they mostly emigrated. David Thomas -----Original Message----- From: Sylvia Birch [mailto:cenquest@tiscali.co.uk] Sent: 14 November 2009 17:00 To: david.tyddu@btconnect.com; dyfed@rootsweb.com Subject: RE: [Dyfed] The Welsh language in 1849 Hi David To be perfectly honest I have not transcribed the 1851 Pembrokeshire census yet. I am on 1861 at the moment where there are lots of missing sections. Anyone interested in knowing which sections of the 1861 are missing try http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/PEM/1861census.html where you will find a list. I know there are sections of 1851 the missing David but as I say I can not tell you which exactly yet. I also believe that all the original householders schedules including 1851 were destroyed. I am sorry I can not be more helpful. Best Wishes Sylvia ................................................................. Pembrokeshire Census, Memorials, Hearths, Orielton CD's and Baptist Sketches at www.cenquest.co.uk Fun games for all the family from Tiscali Play - http://www.tiscali.co.uk/play

Hi David To be perfectly honest I have not transcribed the 1851 Pembrokeshire census yet. I am on 1861 at the moment where there are lots of missing sections. Anyone interested in knowing which sections of the 1861 are missing try http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/PEM/1861census.html where you will find a list. I know there are sections of 1851 the missing David but as I say I can not tell you which exactly yet. I also believe that all the original householders schedules including 1851 were destroyed. I am sorry I can not be more helpful. Best Wishes Sylvia ................................................................. Pembrokeshire Census, Memorials, Hearths, Orielton CD's and Baptist Sketches at www.cenquest.co.uk Fun games for all the family from Tiscali Play - http://www.tiscali.co.uk/play

A bit O/T, I know, but here's a two-sentence item from an 'Odds and Ends' column in the Sydney Morning Herald, Wednesday 26 December 1849. That places it around the about the time my great-grandparents were born. Not sure whether the comment is intended as optimistic about the language or implies some fear of the foreign nature of Welsh to the English: 'In Cardiganshire only 3000 people out of 68,706 speak English. Double the number of persons now speak Welsh who spoke it in the reign of Elizabeth.' David Canberra

Dear Dai Actually in 1891 Enumeration forms were distributed to all households a couple of days before census night and the complete forms were collected the next day. All responses were to reflect the individual's status as of 5 April 1891 for all individuals who had spent the night in the house. People who were traveling or living abroad were enumerated at the location where they spent the night on census night. If the head of the house was illiterate or had any problems completing the form the enumerator would complete as much as necessary. All of the details from the individual forms were later sorted and copied into enumerators' books, which are the records we can view images of today. The original householders schedules from 1841 to 1901 were destroyed. Sylvia ................................................................. Pembrokeshire Census, Memorials, Hearths, Orielton CD's and Baptist Sketches at www.cenquest.co.uk Fun games for all the family from Tiscali Play - http://www.tiscali.co.uk/play

Dear Jen and David On the 1891 census for the parish of Cilgerran, 49 of the 1099 people recorded in that parish, responded totally in Welsh. Using penteulu for head of household as you mentioned and Gwraig for wife etc. 707 are recorded as speaking Welsh only and if that was the case then I presume somehow the responses were translated. 36 spoke english only and the remainder spoke both languages. Best Wishes Sylvia ................................................................. Pembrokeshire Census, Memorials, Hearths, Orielton CD's and Baptist Sketches at www.cenquest.co.uk Fun games for all the family from Tiscali Play - http://www.tiscali.co.uk/play

Does anyone have access to Cardiganshire 1841 please? Josuah Elias, a Cooper, is not with his wife, Annah, & family in Gelligattyfach, Cenarth, in 1841. Could he be working just over the border in Cardiganshire? In 1851 he's remarried & is with wife, Sarah, & family, once again in Cenarth, living at Parkau, which is 3 entries after the family's address in 1841. He had died before the 1861 Census & is buried in Trewen Cemetery, though I failed to find the grave in September. Many thanks Heulwen

Dear Jen and David On the 1891 census for the parish of Cilgerran, 49 of the 1099 people recorded in that parish, responded totally in Welsh. Using penteulu for head of household as you mentioned and Gwraig for wife etc. 707 are recorded as speaking Welsh only and if that was the case then I presume somehow the responses were translated. 36 spoke english only and the remainder spoke both languages. Best Wishes Sylvia >----Original Message---- >From: jenmathias@gmail.com >Date: 14/11/2009 11:30 >To: "David Rowlands"<drowlan1@bigpond.net.au> >Cc: <dyfed@rootsweb.com> >Subj: Re: [Dyfed] The Welsh language in 1849 > >Thanks David, >  >You commented:- >  >"Not sure whether the comment is intended as optimistic about the  >language or implies some fear of the foreign nature of Welsh to the  >English [...'Double the number of persons now speak Welsh who spoke it in the reign of Elizabeth.'] >  >I can't quite understand the newspaper comment since the population had probably increased since the times of Elizabeth - perhaps a spot of early newspaper spin creeping in there.  > >Your report (1849) from the Australian newspaper is arguably reflecting the growing opinion that the Welsh language was a drawback to social progression and written two years after the Treachery of the Blue Books (1847). (BRAD YR LLYFRAU GLEISION). These are on the LLGC web pages >http://www.llgc.org.uk/index.php?id=295 (saesneg) >http://www.llgc.org.uk/index.php?id=295&L=1 (cymraeg) >  >In 1870 the Compulsory Education Act came in - more or less in good working order in Wales by 1880. From 1891 census returns in Wales asked for the Language spoken,  and in the 1911 census in Cardiganshire parishes and elsewhere I have noticed enumeration responses being given in Welsh - eg penteulu rather than Head (of household) etc. >  >Many thanks >  >Jen >  >--- On Sat, 14/11/09, David Rowlands <drowlan1@bigpond.net.au> wrote: > > >From: David Rowlands <drowlan1@bigpond.net.au> >Subject: [Dyfed] The Welsh language in 1849 >To: "Dyfed DYFED" <Dyfed@rootsweb.com> >Date: Saturday, 14 November, 2009, 6:32 > > >A bit O/T, I know, but here's a two-sentence item from an 'Odds and  >Ends' column in the Sydney Morning Herald, Wednesday 26 December 1849.  >That places it around the about the time my great-grandparents were  >born. Not sure whether the comment is intended as optimistic about the  >language or implies some fear of the foreign nature of Welsh to the  >English: > >'In Cardiganshire only 3000 people out of 68,706 speak English. Double  >the number of persons now speak Welsh who spoke it in the reign of  >Elizabeth.' > >David >Canberra > > > >================================ >Dyfed list http://home.clara.net/daibevan/DyfedML.html > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DYFED- request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > >================================ >Dyfed list http://home.clara.net/daibevan/DyfedML.html > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DYFED- request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ................................................................. Pembrokeshire Census, Memorials, Hearths, Orielton CD's and Baptist Sketches at www.cenquest.co.uk Fun games for all the family from Tiscali Play - http://www.tiscali.co.uk/play

Sylvia, Jen & David, In 1891, the information was recorded by an enumerator. The language used therefore may be more representative of the enumerator than the family. 1911 may be a better indicator, where the sheets are as written by the family - usually though not always by the head of household. Dai cenquest@tiscali.co.uk wrote: > Dear Jen and David > > On the 1891 census for the parish of Cilgerran, 49 of the 1099 people > recorded in that parish, responded totally in Welsh. Using penteulu for > head of household as you mentioned and Gwraig for wife etc. > 707 are recorded as speaking Welsh only and if that was the case then > I presume somehow the responses were translated. 36 spoke english only > and the remainder spoke both languages. > > Best Wishes > Sylvia > > > ................................................................. > Pembrokeshire Census, Memorials, Hearths, > Orielton CD's and Baptist Sketches at > www.cenquest.co.uk > > > > > > Fun games for all the family from Tiscali Play - http://www.tiscali.co.uk/play > > > ================================ > Dyfed list http://home.clara.net/daibevan/DyfedML.html > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DYFED-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >